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Post by john14and9 on Jan 24, 2009 0:40:53 GMT -5
Some believe it is a literal place of torment..some do not..what is your stand
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Post by john14and9 on Jan 25, 2009 0:37:09 GMT -5
Some believe it is a literal place of torment..some do not..what is your stand OK..since no one is biting here..let me throw in this thought.. We know the OT was concealed and revealed in the NT..We can research where things originated from the OT and how they were fulfilled in the NT..and so on and so on.. Why is it we do not read about a flaming lake of fire in the OT but we find one in the NT?.. Are sinners more sinful in the NT?..I do not believe God has a sin meter scale..a sinner is a sinner..Can we read where people in the OT went to a place of punishment? I realize this is a touchy area and I am not saying there is no Hell..but what I would like to do is get some feed back on how others feel about these thoughts I have..I have been taught there is a Hell..Lake of fire..etc..but can I trace it back to the OT?..perhaps I am missing scripture? |
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Post by Sower on Jan 27, 2009 17:53:23 GMT -5
Hi John14and9,
My view, hell is a literal place of torment.
Based upon the parable of "the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-22)...
23 And in HELL he lift up his eyes, being in TORMENTS, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Followed by the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).
Lady Sower~
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Post by Allyn on Jan 27, 2009 19:00:35 GMT -5
Some believe it is a literal place of torment..some do not..what is your stand
We know the OT was concealed and revealed in the NT..We can research where things originated from the OT and how they were fulfilled in the NT..and so on and so on..
Why is it we do not read about a flaming lake of fire in the OT but we find one in the NT?..
Are sinners more sinful in the NT?..I do not believe God has a sin meter scale..a sinner is a sinner..Can we read where people in the OT went to a place of punishment?
I realize this is a touchy area and I am not saying there is no Hell..but what I would like to do is get some feed back on how others feel about these thoughts I have..I have been taught there is a Hell..Lake of fire..etc..but can I trace it back to the OT?..perhaps I am missing scripture?Hi John, I am still undecided because of some issues I have concerning the very same thing that Sower brought up that has seemed to convince her. I'm ok with that fact and I hope to get there. I try to take on one spiritual issue at a time and I have only so far been introduced to the idea that there may not be a hell as popularly defined. |
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Post by john14and9 on Jan 27, 2009 22:10:42 GMT -5
OK..since no one is biting here..let me throw in this thought..
We know the OT was concealed and revealed in the NT..We can research where things originated from the OT and how they were fulfilled in the NT..and so on and so on..
Why is it we do not read about a flaming lake of fire in the OT but we find one in the NT?..
Are sinners more sinful in the NT?..I do not believe God has a sin meter scale..a sinner is a sinner..Can we read where people in the OT went to a place of punishment?
I realize this is a touchy area and I am not saying there is no Hell..but what I would like to do is get some feed back on how others feel about these thoughts I have..I have been taught there is a Hell..Lake of fire..etc..but can I trace it back to the OT?..perhaps I am missing scripture? I hear ya..I have friends who believe Hell is the grave and not the burning fire of torment we have all been taught to fear.They say the parable of Lazarus is just that..a story..based out of the OT. In that parable..we are not told why both rich man and Lazarus are there and also some thing else to consider..how does a soul burn? If a believer has eternal life..what does a sinner have? To have eternal life means to "live forever"..hence never die..but the opposite is death..John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Should not perish!..does perish mean to be eternally tormented?..just throwing some thoughts out there..in ezekiel..the soul that sinneth shall..DIE!..I do wonder how a soul can be dead and yet somehow live being tormented in a flame.. |
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Post by Once4all on Jan 28, 2009 9:20:50 GMT -5
Regarding the rich man and Lazarus, even if it is a parable, Jesus never made up fantastical environments in his parables; they all reflected real life worlds, people, and situations.
Bev
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Post by Sower on Jan 28, 2009 14:21:13 GMT -5
I hear ya..I have friends who believe Hell is the grave and not the burning fire of torment we have all been taught to fear.They say the parable of Lazarus is just that..a story..based out of the OT. That contradicts Jesus and the scripture! Sure we are, they died... Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that "the beggar" died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: "the rich" died also and was buried. I don't know. ...You "cursed" into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). Yes (Matthew 25:41). That's the second death (Revelation 20:14; 21:8). I have heard of amputes in the hospital, complaining of pain in a arm or leg they no longer had. That's also an anomaly that I cannot explain.  Lady Sower~ |
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Post by mtymousie on Jan 28, 2009 20:19:32 GMT -5
Some believe it is a literal place of torment..some do not..what is your stand As Sower mentioned, the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a pretty graphic description. However, just like the description of the pearly gates and streets of gold, etc., appeal to our sense of beauty, I tend to view the language here as God's way of trying to get across to us just how utterly horrible it will be to be eternally separated from Him. Those who have lived through losing a close family member know the searing pain of heartache accompanied by overwhelming empty loneliness. Try to imagine that pain multiplied by 1000 with no hope of ever escaping it. That would be just a glimmer of what hell must be like. preteristmouse |
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Post by john14and9 on Jan 30, 2009 21:25:16 GMT -5
Some believe it is a literal place of torment..some do not..what is your stand As Sower mentioned, the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a pretty graphic description. However, just like the description of the pearly gates and streets of gold, etc., appeal to our sense of beauty, I tend to view the language here as God's way of trying to get across to us just how utterly horrible it will be to be eternally separated from Him. Those who have lived through losing a close family member know the searing pain of heartache accompanied by overwhelming empty loneliness. Try to imagine that pain multiplied by 1000 with no hope of ever escaping it. That would be just a glimmer of what hell must be like. preteristmouse Why was there place of torment found in the OT? |
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Post by john14and9 on Jan 30, 2009 21:32:39 GMT -5
That contradicts Jesus and the scripture! Sure we are, they died... Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that "the beggar" died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: "the rich" died also and was buried. I don't know. ...You "cursed" into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). Yes (Matthew 25:41). That's the second death (Revelation 20:14; 21:8). I have heard of amputes in the hospital, complaining of pain in a arm or leg they no longer had. That's also an anomaly that I cannot explain. Lady Sower~ What your saying Lady is that a soul has a tongue,finger etc..and perhaps a person's body is thrown literally in a burning hell even though the body they had on earth was placed in a coffin?... just trying to follow your reasoning here  |
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Post by john14and9 on Jan 30, 2009 21:38:01 GMT -5
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Post by mtymousie on Jan 30, 2009 22:41:34 GMT -5
As Sower mentioned, the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a pretty graphic description. However, just like the description of the pearly gates and streets of gold, etc., appeal to our sense of beauty, I tend to view the language here as God's way of trying to get across to us just how utterly horrible it will be to be eternally separated from Him. Those who have lived through losing a close family member know the searing pain of heartache accompanied by overwhelming empty loneliness. Try to imagine that pain multiplied by 1000 with no hope of ever escaping it. That would be just a glimmer of what hell must be like. preteristmouse Why was there place of torment found in the OT? Well, Jesus spoke more about hell than all the other people in the Bible put together. And He lived "in the OT". preteristmouse |
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Post by mtymousie on Jan 31, 2009 11:02:54 GMT -5
I want to expand a bit on my earlier thoughts.
I believe that heaven (eternal life) and hell (the second death) are SPIRITUAL states of existence.
Don't say "duh", but I have to declare the obvious: God uses LANGUAGE, both literal and figurative, to try to COMMUNICATE to man about the SPIRITUAL realm.
When we are born again and remain faithful, we ARE eternally alive. The description of the city in Rev.21 and 22 is not just future, but also reveals in glorious detail of what it means to live in His everlasting kingdom NOW. If we can come to understand how awesome and wonderful a thing it is to be eternally alive, then that gives us just a glimmer of the unspeakable JOY that is to come after we physically die.
In the SAME manner, the description of hell is not just future, but INCLUDES many things we experience NOW. Every one of us has been burned by fire at one time or another in our lives. Burning is the most horrible physical pain our bodies can go through. God uses this language and similar like the complete helplessness of being in total "outer darkness" to try to communicate to us just a glimmer of how horrible it will be to be eternally separated from Him. Those who have LOST a LOVE (through death or desertion, it doesnt matter) KNOW that there is an even more painful "fire" that makes you literally "gnash your teeth". Physical pain is temporary. The incredible empty loneliness of eternal heartache will be so unbearable that the horrible descriptions cannot really touch what it will be like.
JMO,
Dale
aka
preteristmouse
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Post by Allyn on Jan 31, 2009 11:07:54 GMT -5
Then you are saying, Dale that Hell is and always was just a place not real but just seperation? are we aware of the seperation or is it a metaphor? My questions are honest and not meant to trap.
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Post by mtymousie on Jan 31, 2009 11:23:01 GMT -5
Then you are saying, Dale that Hell is and always was just a place not real but just seperation? are we aware of the seperation or is it a metaphor? My questions are honest and not meant to trap. Since I was not trying to say anything about "metaphors", then I simply do not know how to answer such questions so I may as well just drop it. I, like every other human being, am limited to using language to communicate my thoughts. And since I tried my level best to describe my opinion that both heaven and hell are spiritual states of existence both present and future and obviously failed in my attempt, then I realize that I simply do not possess the skills to do so. Thanks for the opportunity to at least try anyway. preteristmouse |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 31, 2009 11:42:15 GMT -5
Then you are saying, Dale that Hell is and always was just a place not real but just seperation? are we aware of the seperation or is it a metaphor? My questions are honest and not meant to trap. Since I was not trying to say anything about "metaphors", then I simply do not know how to answer such questions so I may as well just drop it. I, like every other human being, am limited to using language to communicate my thoughts. And since I tried my level best to describe my opinion that both heaven and hell are spiritual states of existence both present and future and obviously failed in my attempt, then I realize that I simply do not possess the skills to do so. Thanks for the opportunity to at least try anyway. preteristmouse Dale - that is not what I meant at all. I'm sorry I came across that way. I was only wanting to understand your take on it a little better. I am still developing my take and so I was looking for more info. Sorry man. I meant no offense.  |
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Post by mtymousie on Jan 31, 2009 12:09:47 GMT -5
Since I was not trying to say anything about "metaphors", then I simply do not know how to answer such questions so I may as well just drop it. I, like every other human being, am limited to using language to communicate my thoughts. And since I tried my level best to describe my opinion that both heaven and hell are spiritual states of existence both present and future and obviously failed in my attempt, then I realize that I simply do not possess the skills to do so. Thanks for the opportunity to at least try anyway. preteristmouse Dale - that is not what I meant at all. I'm sorry I came across that way. I was only wanting to understand your take on it a little better. I am still developing my take and so I was looking for more info. Sorry man. I meant no offense. No offense taken, dear brother. I am sorry I was unable to express at least the gist of my thinking on the subject. |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 31, 2009 12:42:59 GMT -5
Yes, you are my dear brother as well. In that I find comfort.
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Post by john14and9 on Feb 2, 2009 21:55:00 GMT -5
I still wonder how does a soul burn?..the opposite of eternal life is eternal death..Adam died a spiritual death yet still experienced physical death.Sin is separation from God...therefore as human we are all born into sin and spiritually dead at birth...and we all need to be "born again"
If a believer has eternal life this means [to me]once physical death happens the soul will live on why?..because of conversion..but the soul that does not become "born again"cannot live on because that soul was never converted..it sounds like I am saying IF a sinner dies a sinner..then they die and live no more..and I say this simply because to say a sinner will live on and experience some type of eternal physical punishment means that somehow they are experiencing something that only a "believer"is promised and that is eternal life..and this my friends does not make sense..I am not settled in concrete on this as they say...but it seems to be the clear answer at least for now..but I remain open..
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Post by Sower on Feb 2, 2009 22:10:29 GMT -5
Hi John14and9, I see your point, but I cannot get aroud the fact Jesus clearly promised 'everlasting punishment' for the wicked (Matthew 25:46). What do you think is meant by everlasting punishment? Lady Sower~ |
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Post by john14and9 on Feb 2, 2009 23:10:22 GMT -5
Hi John14and9, I see your point, but I cannot get aroud the fact Jesus clearly promised 'everlasting punishment' for the wicked (Matthew 25:46). What do you think is meant by everlasting punishment? Lady Sower~ That is the million dollar question! Interesting to know..God is omnipresent! David asked..where could I go that your not there? Yet Paul told the Thessalonian church.. 2 Thess 1:7-9 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; Here is my thinking and please feel free to share.. Where could a soul go to escape the "presence of God"? the only answer I can arrive at is..death...to be no more.. Here is a bonus thought... Adam was created BEFORE he received the breath of life..and He was created BEFORE he was placed in the garden! What did God tell Adam after the fall?..from dust you were taken and to dust you shall return! hmmm |
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Post by Paul Kelly on Feb 3, 2009 7:13:50 GMT -5
Hi John,
Here a few more bits and pieces to support the view you seem to be examining. Just to make it clear, I'm undecided on this issue too, so I'm not really interested in defending this view...I'm just contributing to the discussion.
Firstly, as you say, Adam's punishment for sin was death. God didn't warn him of any impending hell, which on face value seems unfair on poor old Adam. If hell exists, then he was uninformed. As were all the Old Testament characters.
Secondly, is an eternity of torment a "just" reward for even a lifetime (no matter how short) of bad deeds? We know that God is just. An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth. His punishments are equal in value. Is an eternity in hell an equal punishment for even a lifetime of sin?
Does man have an immortal soul? The bible tells us that only God is inherently immortal (1Tim 6:16). However, Immortality is something that men have to put on - they are mortal and have to put on immortality (1Cor 15:53,54).
Everlasting life is a reward for the righteous. The wicked perish:
Joh 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life".
To perish, in this context, is to have your soul, or your person utterly destroyed:
Mat 10:28 - "And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".
The soul is mortal. God can destroy it and will destroy the souls of the unrighteous.
As you've already pointed out, hell is a translation of the Hebrew word sheol (meaning the grave) and the Greek words hades (meaning the unseen or the grave) and gehenna (the Valley of Himmon, where they used to burn dead bodies and trash - signifying everlasting destruction in the sense of their deaths being everlasting - i.e. not subject to reversal).
The idea of burning by fire was something repugnant to God:
Jer 7:31 - "And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind".
The bible speaks of Jesus being in hell. Why would a righteous man end up in hell? Surely it makes more sense to think of him as being in the grave, which is actually where he was:
Act 2:27 - "Because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption".
Where was Christ for three days? Why dead of course.
Similarly with Job:
Job 14:13 - "Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?".
So fed up was Job that he requested to be hidden is Hell (sheol) or to die. When would his release be? When God remembered him, which we know from Daniel 12 would be at his resurrection. You can't come back from hell if you're being punished for an eternity. Resurrection is the coming back from a state of death. Coming back out of the grave (hell or sheol/hades).
Plus, if hades is a place of "eternal" torment, how is it hurled into the lake of fire?
Rev 20:13,15 - "And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire".
If your name's not in the book of LIFE, then you're cast into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the opposite of life. Death.
Just a few things to chew over.
Paul
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Post by Once4all on Feb 3, 2009 10:00:05 GMT -5
- john14and9 wrote: I still wonder how does a soul burn?..the opposite of eternal life is eternal death
- sower wrote: I see your point, but I cannot get aroud the fact Jesus clearly promised 'everlasting punishment' for the wicked (Matthew 25:46).
Just a stray thought here that might or might not contribute. I don't know how common this is with other people, but when I'm sleeping and I am too warm (forgot to turn off the heat; have too many covers on, etc.) my dreams are affected. When I'm too hot, I have BAD dreams, even nightmares.
The association of heat and frightening experiences in dreams seems oddly coincidental with the torment associated with hell (the lake of fire, as I believe it). This is not to say that I believe that everlasting torment is in literal flames, but I do believe in an eternal hell of some kind for the wicked.
Bev
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Post by mtymousie on Feb 3, 2009 10:49:14 GMT -5
I still wonder how does a soul burn?..the opposite of eternal life is eternal death..Adam died a spiritual death yet still experienced physical death.Sin is separation from God...therefore as human we are all born into sin and spiritually dead at birth...and we all need to be "born again" If a believer has eternal life this means [to me]once physical death happens the soul will live on why?..because of conversion..but the soul that does not become "born again"cannot live on because that soul was never converted..it sounds like I am saying IF a sinner dies a sinner..then they die and live no more..and I say this simply because to say a sinner will live on and experience some type of eternal physical punishment means that somehow they are experiencing something that only a "believer"is promised and that is eternal life..and this my friends does not make sense..I am not settled in concrete on this as they say...but it seems to be the clear answer at least for now..but I remain open.. Would you please address the points I have tried to make about why God uses such descriptive language? Thanks. preteristmouse |
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Post by Paul Kelly on Feb 3, 2009 11:19:58 GMT -5
- john14and9 wrote: I still wonder how does a soul burn?..the opposite of eternal life is eternal death - sower wrote: I see your point, but I cannot get aroud the fact Jesus clearly promised 'everlasting punishment' for the wicked (Matthew 25:46). Just a stray thought here that might or might not contribute. I don't know how common this is with other people, but when I'm sleeping and I am too warm (forgot to turn off the heat; have too many covers on, etc.) my dreams are affected. When I'm too hot, I have BAD dreams, even nightmares. The association of heat and frightening experiences in dreams seems oddly coincidental with the torment associated with hell (the lake of fire, as I believe it). This is not to say that I believe that everlasting torment is in literal flames, but I do believe in an eternal hell of some kind for the wicked. Bev Hi Bev, Like I said to John above, I'm not totally sold either way. But how would you explain that hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire, as per Rev 20:14, if hell is the lake of fire? Rev 20:14 - "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death". And, as you say, the dead go off into eternal punishment. But if the punishment for disobedience is irrevocable death, wouldn't that be eternal in its effects? There's certainly no coming back from it. And isn't the comparison is Matt 25:46 between eternal life and eternal punishment. Isn't the antithesis of eternal life eternal death? Wouldn't a better comparison, assuming hell were a literal place of torment, be "eternal bliss and eternal torment"? Why is eternal life held out as a prize when even the wicked possess it? Just curious as to your thoughts. Paul. P.S. Sent you an email yesterday. Did you get it? |
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Post by mtymousie on Feb 3, 2009 12:32:31 GMT -5
IF I spent my life trying to publicly convince lost souls that Jesus Christ was not really God, then it would not be that much of a stretch to also try to publicly convince them that hell does not really exist so they would not have to be concerned about the eternal consequences of rejecting Him.
Just an observation.
preteristmouse
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Post by Paul Kelly on Feb 3, 2009 13:02:40 GMT -5
IF I spent my life trying to publicly convince lost souls that Jesus Christ was not really God, then it would not be that much of a stretch to also try to publicly convince them that hell does not really exist so they would not have to be concerned about the eternal consequences of rejecting Him. Just an observation. preteristmouse Firstly, I'm not trying to publicly convince anyone that hell "does not really exist". If you'd read my earlier post, you'd know that I was undecided on the issue. I'm simply raising some obvious questions...as I believe John is. It's an exchange of information. Secondly, I'm VERY concerned about the eternal consequences of rejecting Christ and God. That's why I'm careful not to do it. I do however reject the doctrines of men. Thirdly, I have not "spent my life trying to publicly convince lost souls that Jesus Christ was not really God". This is nothing more than an attempt at "poisoning the well". But as anyone knows, it's the oldest logical fallacy in the book. Paul |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Feb 3, 2009 14:50:46 GMT -5
I am wondering this morning if Adam getting kicked out of Paradise is not a type of those thrown into the lake of fire. Could it be that the lake is a portal thru which the devil and men are thrown back into a world after the judgment, where they will no longer enjoy the presence of God at all?
Eternal life is as much a quality of life in contrast to natural life as it is descriptive of its everlasting duration for eternity. There are too many other parallels which describe outer darkeness as a place of gnashing of teeth. And this lake is found outside the walls of the heavenly Jerusalem where only murderers and such are to be found.
So once all men who are to be raised for judgment receive their final sentence - will those who are cast into the lake die a 2nd death as in annihilation, or "live" forever in a realm where death with Satan as its king rules?
Adam cast out of Paradise entered into a world under a curse, but where God still sustained order and relationship with men. What would a world that only Satan rules be like? Hell it would seem. Not for its literal "firery torment" like the stories may depict, but a world where only sin, death and a devil men can now see, rules. Whether or not they actually die again or not, it would seem the quality of their "life" is as different from what the saints experience in heaven, so as to call it abiding in death.
In this world in which we dwell now, men who reject God can still partake of the benefits of His presence, order and restraining influence. Were He to give this physical realm over to Satan and withdraw all blessings from it - well I can only wonder what it would be like - a lake of fire?
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Post by Once4all on Feb 3, 2009 17:32:13 GMT -5
- john14and9 wrote: I still wonder how does a soul burn?..the opposite of eternal life is eternal death - sower wrote: I see your point, but I cannot get aroud the fact Jesus clearly promised 'everlasting punishment' for the wicked (Matthew 25:46). Just a stray thought here that might or might not contribute. I don't know how common this is with other people, but when I'm sleeping and I am too warm (forgot to turn off the heat; have too many covers on, etc.) my dreams are affected. When I'm too hot, I have BAD dreams, even nightmares. The association of heat and frightening experiences in dreams seems oddly coincidental with the torment associated with hell (the lake of fire, as I believe it). This is not to say that I believe that everlasting torment is in literal flames, but I do believe in an eternal hell of some kind for the wicked. Bev Hi Bev, Like I said to John above, I'm not totally sold either way. But how would you explain that hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire, as per Rev 20:14, if hell is the lake of fire? Rev 20:14 - "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death". And, as you say, the dead go off into eternal punishment. But if the punishment for disobedience is irrevocable death, wouldn't that be eternal in its effects? There's certainly no coming back from it. And isn't the comparison is Matt 25:46 between eternal life and eternal punishment. Isn't the antithesis of eternal life eternal death? Wouldn't a better comparison, assuming hell were a literal place of torment, be "eternal bliss and eternal torment"? Why is eternal life held out as a prize when even the wicked possess it? Just curious as to your thoughts. Paul. P.S. Sent you an email yesterday. Did you get it? Hi Paul. Yes, I received the email. Have not had a chance yet to reply. Busy filling out retirement paperwork and taking one of my cats to the vet. The "hell" that was thrown into the lake of fire was Hades, the old holding place of the dead. When Christians today talk about hell, they actually mean the lake of fire (even though they may not know it). I would not call what the wicked experience "life." Life is a gift from God, everyone's physical life and the eternal life of the righteous are gifts bestowed to His children. There are different properties to each, in each realm. Just like the definition of life is different in the physical and spiritual realm, so is the definition of death. Preterists like to say, especially in terms of the resurrection, that non-prets view the resurrection carnally or from the flesh. To view spiritual death in the same way that we view physical death of the body (nonexistent; annihilated to nothingness; etc.) is also to apply a carnal perspective, IMO. Blessings to you, bro. Bev |
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Post by Once4all on Feb 3, 2009 17:41:19 GMT -5
I am wondering this morning if Adam getting kicked out of Paradise is not a type of those thrown into the lake of fire. Could it be that the lake is a portal thru which the devil and men are thrown back into a world after the judgment, where they will no longer enjoy the presence of God at all? Eternal life is as much a quality of life in contrast to natural life as it is descriptive of its everlasting duration for eternity. There are too many other parallels which describe outer darkeness as a place of gnashing of teeth. And this lake is found outside the walls of the heavenly Jerusalem where only murderers and such are to be found. So once all men who are to be raised for judgment receive their final sentence - will those who are cast into the lake die a 2nd death as in annihilation, or "live" forever in a realm where death with Satan as its king rules? Adam cast out of Paradise entered into a world under a curse, but where God still sustained order and relationship with men. What would a world that only Satan rules be like? Hell it would seem. Not for its literal "firery torment" like the stories may depict, but a world where only sin, death and a devil men can now see, rules. Whether or not they actually die again or not, it would seem the quality of their "life" is as different from what the saints experience in heaven, so as to call it abiding in death. In this world in which we dwell now, men who reject God can still partake of the benefits of His presence, order and restraining influence. Were He to give this physical realm over to Satan and withdraw all blessings from it - well I can only wonder what it would be like - a lake of fire? Hi Robin. I don't believe there is any scripture at all that implies that Satan rules or is king in hell. That is from the imaginations of men. The lake of fire is just as much a punishment for satan as for everyone else there. Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. However, your thought about the lake of fire being a portal to a Godless world is very interesting! It may not be too far from the truth. I just don't think Satan will be in charge there. Bev |
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