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Post by Paul Kelly on Feb 3, 2009 19:16:52 GMT -5
Hi Paul. Yes, I received the email. Have not had a chance yet to reply. Busy filling out retirement paperwork and taking one of my cats to the vet. The "hell" that was thrown into the lake of fire was Hades, the old holding place of the dead. When Christians today talk about hell, they actually mean the lake of fire (even though they may not know it). I would not call what the wicked experience "life." Life is a gift from God, everyone's physical life and the eternal life of the righteous are gifts bestowed to His children. There are different properties to each, in each realm. Just like the definition of life is different in the physical and spiritual realm, so is the definition of death. Preterists like to say, especially in terms of the resurrection, that non-prets view the resurrection carnally or from the flesh. To view spiritual death in the same way that we view physical death of the body (nonexistent; annihilated to nothingness; etc.) is also to apply a carnal perspective, IMO. Blessings to you, bro. Bev Hi Bev, Got your email and returned one to you. Thank goodness we're not losing them again. And thank you for the clarification. When you said "hell" in your first post then added "the lake of fire" I thought you were suggesting that hell was the lake of fire. So from your point of view, hell isn't a place of eternal torment but the lake of fire is? Paul |
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Post by john14and9 on Feb 3, 2009 21:37:46 GMT -5
Hi John, Here a few more bits and pieces to support the view you seem to be examining. Just to make it clear, I'm undecided on this issue too, so I'm not really interested in defending this view...I'm just contributing to the discussion. Firstly, as you say, Adam's punishment for sin was death. God didn't warn him of any impending hell, which on face value seems unfair on poor old Adam. If hell exists, then he was uninformed. As were all the Old Testament characters. Secondly, is an eternity of torment a "just" reward for even a lifetime (no matter how short) of bad deeds? We know that God is just. An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth. His punishments are equal in value. Is an eternity in hell an equal punishment for even a lifetime of sin? Does man have an immortal soul? The bible tells us that only God is inherently immortal (1Tim 6:16). However, Immortality is something that men have to put on - they are mortal and have to put on immortality (1Cor 15:53,54). Everlasting life is a reward for the righteous. The wicked perish: Joh 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life". To perish, in this context, is to have your soul, or your person utterly destroyed: Mat 10:28 - "And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". The soul is mortal. God can destroy it and will destroy the souls of the unrighteous. As you've already pointed out, hell is a translation of the Hebrew word sheol (meaning the grave) and the Greek words hades (meaning the unseen or the grave) and gehenna (the Valley of Himmon, where they used to burn dead bodies and trash - signifying everlasting destruction in the sense of their deaths being everlasting - i.e. not subject to reversal). The idea of burning by fire was something repugnant to God: Jer 7:31 - "And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind". The bible speaks of Jesus being in hell. Why would a righteous man end up in hell? Surely it makes more sense to think of him as being in the grave, which is actually where he was: Act 2:27 - "Because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption". Where was Christ for three days? Why dead of course. Similarly with Job: Job 14:13 - "Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?". So fed up was Job that he requested to be hidden is Hell (sheol) or to die. When would his release be? When God remembered him, which we know from Daniel 12 would be at his resurrection. You can't come back from hell if you're being punished for an eternity. Resurrection is the coming back from a state of death. Coming back out of the grave (hell or sheol/hades). Plus, if hades is a place of "eternal" torment, how is it hurled into the lake of fire? Rev 20:13,15 - "And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire". If your name's not in the book of LIFE, then you're cast into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the opposite of life. Death. Just a few things to chew over. Paul Paul we seem to have the same idea on what the scriptures speak..and I liked how you presented it.I too am not settled on the issue but it does seem the consequences for not becoming Born Again is death..thus the need to go and preach the Gospel to all..Scriptures says..God is not willing that anyone perish!.. We as "prets" get our understanding from the OT and see how it fulfills in the NT..but it is interesting that the OT has absolutely no mention of a "lake of fire"yet we want to assume there is one..simply because Revelation mentions it. Let us not forget what Revelation really is..a book of highly symbolic language..I have no clue why God chose to use that type of language but I must also remember that I am not Hebrew,I am from the West and do not understand the Hebrew mindset..It is obvious the Lake of fire is a description of a place I do not wish anyone to go to..I am not saying it does not exist..but I do present a good question on why can we not find a reference traced back to the OT? |
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Post by Sower on Feb 3, 2009 22:42:07 GMT -5
Hi Paul Kelly & John14and9, Considering... 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also He went and 'preached' unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water. Also... 1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is "ready to judge" the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause "was" the gospel preached also to them that ARE dead, that they might be 'judged' according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Any thoughts, regarding "the spirits in prison?"  Lady Sower~ |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Feb 3, 2009 22:53:38 GMT -5
Hi Robin. I don't believe there is any scripture at all that implies that Satan rules or is king in hell. That is from the imaginations of men. The lake of fire is just as much a punishment for satan as for everyone else there. Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. However, your thought about the lake of fire being a portal to a Godless world is very interesting! It may not be too far from the truth. I just don't think Satan will be in charge there. Bev Well there is this one: Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. |
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Post by Paul Kelly on Feb 4, 2009 12:32:20 GMT -5
Any thoughts, regarding "the spirits in prison?" Hi Lady Sower, First things first, I'm not completely sold on the idea that hell doesn't exist. I'm just arguing from the point of view that it may not, purely for the sake of discusion. However, I do have a few thoughts on the scriptures you posted. The scripture at 1Pet 3:19 tends to be used to prove that Jesus, in hell, preached to the dead souls of men. A few things to note: 1.At 1Pet 3:19 the spirits are not said to be in hell. None of the Greek words generally translated hell (hades, gehenna) are used in this scripture. Just the Greek word “phulake”, which simply means prison. 2.The preceding scriptures speak of Jesus being put to death in the flesh and made alive by the spirit. So we're not talking about Jesus' stint in hades (the grave), but his activities post resurrection. So who are the spirits in prison? Compare: 2Pet 2:4,5 - "For God did not spare angels when they had sinned, but hurling them down to Tartarus consigned them to caves of darkness, keeping them in readiness for judgement". The Greek word tartarus is used just once in scripture. It seems to portray the idea of a holding area for disobedient angels. Which would tie in nicely with the “prison” idea of 1Pet3:19. Also at Jude 1:6 Jud 1:6 - “And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day”. Again, everlasting bonds.....being bound....being in prison. All similar themes. So it could be that the spirits in prison are simply disobedient angels, sat awaiting the day of judgement. Obviously angels aren't subject to mortality, so they don't die and go down to hades (the grave). But that's not to say God lets them run wild for an eternity. They're still subject to restrictions. I think the key to this one lies in the verses before. 1Pe 4:3-5 - “For the time past may suffice to have wrought the desire of the Gentiles, and to have walked in lasciviousness, lusts, winebibbings, revellings, carousings, and abominable idolatries: wherein they think strange that ye run not with them into the same excess of riot, speaking evil of of: who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the living and the dead”. The dead in v.6 may be referring to those who are "dead" because of their persistent sinning or their disapproved state before God. Compare: Eph 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, Mat 8:22 But Jesus saith unto him, Follow me; and leave the dead to bury their own dead. Paul |
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Post by Sower on Feb 4, 2009 13:02:22 GMT -5
Any thoughts, regarding "the spirits in prison?" Hi Lady Sower, Hi Paulkelly, O'kay!  I believe, Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, "pre-resurrection" during the three days he was in the grave . They are not the same, the spirits that Jesus preached to were people, that existed in the days of Noah, "while" the ark was a preparing (1 Peter 3:18,19), whereas, Jude 1:6 speak of the angels that kept not their first estate. |
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Post by Once4all on Feb 4, 2009 13:03:14 GMT -5
Hi Robin. I don't believe there is any scripture at all that implies that Satan rules or is king in hell. That is from the imaginations of men. The lake of fire is just as much a punishment for satan as for everyone else there. Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. However, your thought about the lake of fire being a portal to a Godless world is very interesting! It may not be too far from the truth. I just don't think Satan will be in charge there. Bev Well there is this one: Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. I'm not sure that the abyss or bottomless pit is the same as the Lake of Fire. I wouldn't think that anything comes out of the lake of fire after it gets thrown into it. The bottomless pit is most likely the grave, Hades, Sheol. Going "down to the pit" is referred to in many of the Pslams. Proverbs 1:12 connects Sheol with "the pit." Rev 1:18 tells us there are keys "of death and Hades." The "bottomless pit" and the "abyss" also have a key (Rev 9:1 & Rev 20:1). Bev |
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Post by Paul Kelly on Feb 4, 2009 14:45:02 GMT -5
Hello Lady Sower, I believe, Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, "pre-resurrection" during the three days he was in the grave. I know you do. Many people have a similar understanding and it's your prerogative to believe as you choose. I'm simply pointing out that this scripture doesn't say anything about the grave (different Greek word) and the context speaks of Christ performing this function post resurrection. So I personally find this explanation weak on two counts. They are not the same, the spirits that Jesus preached to were people, that existed in the days of Noah, "while" the ark was a preparing (1 Peter 3:18,19), whereas, Jude 1:6 speak of the angels that kept not their first estate. 1Pet 3:19 doesn't say they were people. It says they were spirits. The Sons of the True God at Gen 6:2 could just as easily be angels. In fact,“Sons of the True God” is a phrase used of angels elsewhere in scripture (Job 1:6, Job 2:1). This is what Jude 1:6 is talking about....the angels “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place”.....they started to take “the daughters of men” as wives from themselves...and as a punishment God threw them into tartarus. Paul |
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Post by Sower on Feb 4, 2009 19:48:38 GMT -5
Hello Paul, True! I don't see that in the context. If you point it out in the context, I will concede that you're right! Are you suggesting Noah preached to angelic spirits? Well you're certainly welcome to believe that, but the fact Jesus preached the gospel to them, indicate they were humans beings. Show scripture of angels being saved through the gospel! Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Their fate was sealed, why would Jesus preach the gospel to them? Lady Sower~ |
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Post by mtymousie on Feb 4, 2009 21:53:31 GMT -5
They are not the same, the spirits that Jesus preached to were people, that existed in the days of Noah, "while" the ark was a preparing (1 Peter 3:18,19), whereas, Jude 1:6 speak of the angels that kept not their first estate. Amen! The passage has NOTHING to do with Christ preaching to anybody while He was dead and EVERYTHING to with Him preaching BY the Spirit THROUGH Noah for 120 years to those captives/PRISONERS of sin while the ark was being built. preteristmouse |
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Post by Paul Kelly on Feb 5, 2009 6:59:15 GMT -5
Hello Lady Sower, If you point it out in the context, I will concede that you're right! In v.18 it says: 1Pe 3:18 - “Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit”. So we're talking about Christ's physical death. He physically died for us but was made alive in the spirit (i.e. he came back to life). Then, in the very next verse it says: 1Pe 3:19 - “In which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison”. "In which", or “in which state” as the NWT puts it, or “In that state” as the HCSB puts it (i.e. the state of being made alive in the spirit or resurrected) he went and preached to the spirits in prison. Are you suggesting Noah preached to angelic spirits? No. Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison (or tartarus) after his resurrection. Well you're certainly welcome to believe that, but the fact Jesus preached the gospel to them, indicate they were humans beings. But you're adding to scripture. It says nothing about him preaching the “gospel” to them. Noah preached to the antediluvian world a message of destruction, not of the gospel. Similarly Jonah's preaching was non-gospel related, but a message of destruction against the Ninevites. The Greek word word “kerusso” simply means to proclaim something. It can be either good or bad news. Show scripture of angels being saved through the gospel! Not applicable, see above. Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Their fate was sealed, why would Jesus preach the gospel to them? See above. Paul |
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Post by Once4all on Feb 5, 2009 9:00:40 GMT -5
A couple of you have mentioned Noah "preaching." Nowhere in scripture is it written that Noah preached to anybody anywhere. It's just human conjecture that he did so.
The closest scripture that comes close to saying anything like that is Hebrews 11:7 - By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
And that means by his example of obedience to God against the backdrop of the wickedness of the world, the world was condemned.
Bev
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Post by mtymousie on Feb 5, 2009 10:32:16 GMT -5
A couple of you have mentioned Noah "preaching." Nowhere in scripture is it written that Noah preached to anybody anywhere. It's just human conjecture that he did so. "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;" (2 Peter 2:5) Bev can call my sincere belief "human conjecture" all she wants. I will continue to believe that Christ, through the Holy Spirit inspired Noah, PREACHED for 120 years to those captives of sin while the ark was being built. preteristmouse |
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Post by Once4all on Feb 5, 2009 13:06:12 GMT -5
A couple of you have mentioned Noah "preaching." Nowhere in scripture is it written that Noah preached to anybody anywhere. It's just human conjecture that he did so. "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;" (2 Peter 2:5) Bev can call my sincere belief "human conjecture" all she wants. I will continue to believe that Christ, through the Holy Spirit inspired Noah, PREACHED for 120 years to those captives of sin while the ark was being built. preteristmouse You know.... You COULD HAVE pointed out the verse that I obviously missed when searching and left it at that. I would have appreciated that; it would have been a kind thing to do. But NO, you have to make it into some kind of personal attack. You should pray to have the bitterness removed from your heart, Dale. Bev |
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Post by Sower on Feb 5, 2009 14:02:52 GMT -5
Hello PaulKelly, Thanks for your timely responses, let's just agree to disagree on this!  Blessings, Lady Sower~ |
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Post by Paul Kelly on Feb 5, 2009 14:14:34 GMT -5
Hello PaulKelly, Thanks for your timely responses, let's just agree to disagree on this! Blessings, Lady Sower~ Hi Lady Sower, No problems at all with that. Thanks for the chat. Paul |
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Post by mtymousie on Feb 5, 2009 16:00:56 GMT -5
"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;" (2 Peter 2:5) Bev can call my sincere belief "human conjecture" all she wants. I will continue to believe that Christ, through the Holy Spirit inspired Noah, PREACHED for 120 years to those captives of sin while the ark was being built. preteristmouse Bev You know ... You COULD HAVE said what you did about Noah without then declaring that my beliefs were nothing more than "human conjecture", Bev. I would have appreciated that; it would have been the kind thing to do. But NO, you have to make it into some kind of personal attack. You should pray to have the bitterness removed from your heart, Bev. Dale |
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Post by Once4all on Feb 5, 2009 16:22:06 GMT -5
Dale, why are you taking this so personally? My post was not addressed to you by name, or to anyone by name. I wrote, "A couple of people." One of those people was Paul, who wrote, "Noah preached to the antediluvian world a message of destruction, not of the gospel."
Paul has not reacted as you have.
I think of this place (the Preterist Voice forums) as a refuge from CARM and the contentious attitudes displayed there. I'd like it to remain so for all of us.
I apologize for your hurt feelings if I was the cause. If you have more to say about this, say it, but I won't be tempted to react in like manner unless that manner is one of love.
Bev
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Post by mtymousie on Feb 5, 2009 16:34:06 GMT -5
Apology gratefully accepted, Bev. Please accept mine for any hurt feelings I have caused.
Dale
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Post by Allyn on Feb 5, 2009 17:04:09 GMT -5
Like many of you here, I have been in discussion boards for over 9 years. The best ones I have been in are those where we act like human beings and then after that we act like Christ. So I am grateful that when we do act like Human beings we also listen to the Spirit of God Who shows us that we need to act like Christ. I appreciate all of you  |
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Post by Once4all on Feb 5, 2009 17:20:18 GMT -5
Apology likewise accepted, Dale.  Bev |
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Post by karmarie on Sept 27, 2009 6:17:01 GMT -5
God is love.
You cant call God love and say God will stay angry forever and hold eternal grudges and torment people for not loving him. Thats not God.
Isiah 57
16 For I will not contend forever,
Nor will I always be angry;
God told us there were 2 great commandments
-To Love the Lord our God with all of our heart
-And our neighbour as ourselves.
God doesnt change.
If you saw a neighbour in a fire would you not want to run and rescue them? If you did, God would be pleased. Greater love has no man than he who lays down his life for another. This is the love Jesus showed for us!
If you were in the afterlife would you not feel the same?
God has given us a mind and heart. For those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. This is of the heart.
God is love.
God is just.
Any punishment cannot last forever.
Just as we hopefully are kind, loving and just,
That we are in Jesus as Jesus is in God.
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Post by Allyn on Sept 27, 2009 8:35:51 GMT -5
God is love. You cant call God love and say God will stay angry forever and hold eternal grudges and torment people for not loving him. Thats not God. Isiah 57 16 For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; God told us there were 2 great commandments -To Love the Lord our God with all of our heart -And our neighbour as ourselves. God doesnt change. If you saw a neighbour in a fire would you not want to run and rescue them? If you did, God would be pleased. Greater love has no man than he who lays down his life for another. This is the love Jesus showed for us! If you were in the afterlife would you not feel the same? God has given us a mind and heart. For those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. This is of the heart. God is love. God is just. Any punishment cannot last forever. Just as we hopefully are kind, loving and just, That we are in Jesus as Jesus is in God. Thank you for that great reminder Edit: I missed the message that God will not punish forever. I believe that eternal punishment is exactly that. |
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Post by Michael J Loomis on Sept 27, 2009 13:37:15 GMT -5
God is love. You cant call God love and say God will stay angry forever and hold eternal grudges and torment people for not loving him. Thats not God. Isiah 57 16 For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; God told us there were 2 great commandments -To Love the Lord our God with all of our heart -And our neighbour as ourselves. God doesnt change. If you saw a neighbour in a fire would you not want to run and rescue them? If you did, God would be pleased. Greater love has no man than he who lays down his life for another. This is the love Jesus showed for us! If you were in the afterlife would you not feel the same? God has given us a mind and heart. For those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. This is of the heart. God is love. God is just. Any punishment cannot last forever. Just as we hopefully are kind, loving and just, That we are in Jesus as Jesus is in God. Hold up...Wait a minute...What do you mean it's not eternal conscious torment. 8) An eye for an eye... 40 lashes minus 1... 70 years punishment for 70 years wickedness??? I just wish the Bible was patently clear on the afterlife. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Sept 27, 2009 16:11:22 GMT -5
Hi Karmarie,
There is a temporal realm in which time plays a factor, but there is also an eternal realm where it doesn't. Once time ends for the soul that dies here, he enters into that eternal realm. If he has died in his sins, then his sins remain upon him. And like Esau who rejected his birthright, he will find there is no repentance that can be had once his judgment has come for rejecting the only hope he was given in this life.
Men have added many ideas to this whereby even the Jews as well as the Catholics envisioned hell as some sort of purgatory whereby sins could be cleansed by the fire and the soul would eventually be released, cleansed of sin and set free to enjoy life forever after.
But that cannot be found in the NT doctrine whereby sin must purged in this life thru the indwelling sanctification of the Spirit. The flaming sword that stands barring the way to Eden/ Paradise is the flame of death which every man must meet. And anything that is made of wood, hay or stubble will perish. The man who dies in his sins has no works of silver or gold (faith) that can be purified - therefore his destiny is death.
Whatever this lake of fire is, it certainly depicts that his judgment remains upon him - because his sin remains upon him. Which is why we preach the gospel to men in this life so their sins can be forgiven before that day arrives.
It might help to think of the eternal realm in the sense of the ever present 'now'. For in the Now, no time is passing. Hence the sinner who arrives in that state is sealed unto that state forever because it never passes away.
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Post by karmarie on Sept 27, 2009 16:18:23 GMT -5
Exactly! It would help if the bible was clear on the matter!
I thought about this subject for a long time.
I learned that God has to be exactly what the bible says he is. And what my heart came to know.
Look what weve done with the world! How could God so patiently put up with us! I dont know where he gets his patience!
Many people have been murderd, tortured, abused, and the criminals think they got away with it! Hmmmm. Revenge is mine says the Lord.
But the bible says God is fair and Just and that he wont stay angry for ever! What will happen to these people after punishment? Only God knows!
We inherit our love, forgivness and compassion from our father!
Thank goodness for that. It is love that will save us!
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Post by adhitthana on Sept 29, 2009 20:18:43 GMT -5
Some believe it is a literal place of torment..some do not..what is your stand I think the place I would start is by seeing that there are two words and concepts from Aramaic/hebrew which we see as "hell" in our english versions. One is sheol, which seems to translate as hades in greek. Sheol was where the rich man was suffering. Sheol was emptied out at the parousia. The second word is the Aramaic word gehenna. Contextually in the NT gehennna is a state of consciousness, a state of torment, not a literal place. Look at it's usage in James for example. If gehenna is a place then it is a valley outside Jerusalem. However by the time of Jesus this valley had taken on an eschatological meaning also. We can see this either in the gospels or in the Aramaic targum to which Jesus probably referred. The idea of a place of never ending torment is a later misunderstanding if passages like Matthew 25, which also is eschatological in nature. |
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Post by adhitthana on Sept 29, 2009 20:38:58 GMT -5
Hi John14and9, I see your point, but I cannot get aroud the fact Jesus clearly promised 'everlasting punishment' for the wicked (Matthew 25:46). What do you think is meant by everlasting punishment? Lady Sower~ Hi Sower, I dont think we have any reason to think that "everlasting" means never ending. I say this because of the usage of the hebrew "olam" in the OT. Matthew 25 IMHO is referring to the same thing that the similar passages throughout the NT (and Hebrew prophets) are referring to, that is, the destruction coming at the end of the age. The context of Matthew 25 is the parousia... 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. |
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Post by mellontes on Sept 30, 2009 8:08:22 GMT -5
Since immortality only comes by way of the Gospel (2 Tim 1:10), perhaps our present definition of immortality (as never being able to die physically) has become somewhat skewed. Also, our present understanding of Adam and Eve being created immortal may also be skewed. Was mankind created with immortal (never dying) souls if immortality only comes by way of the Gospel?
That is the question that must be answered if we are to pursue the eternal conscience torment theory...
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Post by Once4all on Sept 30, 2009 12:23:48 GMT -5
Since immortality only comes by way of the Gospel (2 Tim 1:10), perhaps our present definition of immortality (as never being able to die physically) has become somewhat skewed. Also, our present understanding of Adam and Eve being created immortal may also be skewed. Was mankind created with immortal (never dying) souls if immortality only comes by way of the Gospel? That is the question that must be answered if we are to pursue the eternal conscience torment theory... If Adam had never sinned, he would not have been expelled from the Garden and would have had continued access to the Tree of Life. Based on information in a book I finished reading recently by G.K. Beale, the Garden of Eden was basically the first temple of God. Had Adam continued in it, cultivating it, the Garden would have expanded, eventually covering the whole earth. Several metaphors of this exist in scripture, not to mention the actual physical temples in Jerusalem. The current temple, the body of Christ, also has the commission to expand. Adam and Eve were "immortal" as long as they remained in the Garden temple, cultivating (expanding) it. We, too, will never die as long as we remain in Christ, spreading the gospel of the Kingdom. Bev |
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