|
|
Post by Allyn on Sept 30, 2009 14:43:40 GMT -5
I think that is a very accurate description, Bev - Thanks
|
|
|
|
Post by Once4all on Sept 30, 2009 15:35:57 GMT -5
I think that is a very accurate description, Bev - Thanks You're welcome, Allyn! |
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Sept 30, 2009 21:12:43 GMT -5
Since immortality only comes by way of the Gospel (2 Tim 1:10), perhaps our present definition of immortality (as never being able to die physically) has become somewhat skewed. Also, our present understanding of Adam and Eve being created immortal may also be skewed. Was mankind created with immortal (never dying) souls if immortality only comes by way of the Gospel? That is the question that must be answered if we are to pursue the eternal conscience torment theory... If Adam had never sinned, he would not have been expelled from the Garden and would have had continued access to the Tree of Life. Based on information in a book I finished reading recently by G.K. Beale, the Garden of Eden was basically the first temple of God. Had Adam continued in it, cultivating it, the Garden would have expanded, eventually covering the whole earth. Several metaphors of this exist in scripture, not to mention the actual physical temples in Jerusalem. The current temple, the body of Christ, also has the commission to expand. Adam and Eve were "immortal" as long as they remained in the Garden temple, cultivating (expanding) it. We, too, will never die as long as we remain in Christ, spreading the gospel of the Kingdom. Bev But is not the issue whether there is eternal, conscious torment for unbelievers? I have no problem for immortality by way of the tree of life or Gospel, but what of those that do not partake of that covenant of grace...are they immortal never dying beings? I do not see how they can be if they have never been made alive in the first place. Your quote of "as long as we remain in Christ" seems to be indicative that loss of salvation would be possible. If that is what you may have presented, I would have to vehemently disagree. I wasn't the one who granted myself salvation and I am not the one who can ungrant it either. |
|
|
|
Post by Once4all on Sept 30, 2009 21:17:28 GMT -5
You may disagree in any manner you wish, but yes, I believe that salvation is conditional.
|
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Oct 1, 2009 6:34:38 GMT -5
You may disagree in any manner you wish, but yes, I believe that salvation is conditional. I would say salvation was conditional up to the parousia of Christ. There are many NT references to falling away and holding fast. For me, the past parousia seals one's salvation for good. I think this was part of the "change" the NT Christians would experience. In your post " Jesus' Role" both here and at CARM, this concept of the sealing should be considered as well. The parousia sealing is of utmost importance in preterism. In my opinion, the whole doctrine of loss of salvation propagated by many is based upon the improper timing of the parousia event. May I ask you one question? Can you give me an example of something that would cause you to lose your salvation? |
|
|
|
Post by Once4all on Oct 1, 2009 11:51:08 GMT -5
... May I ask you one question? Can you give me an example of something that would cause you to lose your salvation? Deciding that there is no God, thus becoming an atheist, would be one! |
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Oct 1, 2009 12:34:42 GMT -5
... May I ask you one question? Can you give me an example of something that would cause you to lose your salvation? Deciding that there is no God, thus becoming an atheist, would be one! So, this thinking work (your decision) would cause Christ to longer be in you... What Scripture(s) would you base this upon? What about taking the Lord's name in vain? Would that cause you to lose your salvation as well? It would seem that a Christian should never do that! What about severe depression for a Christian? What about believing their might be errors in our Bible? Carefully think upon this one...If one truly believes that the wages of sin is PHYSICAL death (not saying that you do), how can one truly believe in the work accomplished at the cross? Add to this, if one believes the resurrection of Christ was purely PHYSICAL (and not resurrected from biblical death) how then can he properly believe the gospel according to 1 Cor 15:3-4 Their view of Christ's mission becomes completely distorted...hence, this is why PaulT and others are saying that we are not Christians because our view of death and the resurrection from that death is different (physically) than theirs. So, according to preterism and how we define death, it is they who are not Christians...although I would never push this point to the extreme. |
|
|
|
Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 1, 2009 14:44:34 GMT -5
Believing is what must continue in this life as faith to the end. If men can be lost again to death thru unbelief, then you come against the problem mentioned in Hebrews 6 of finding another sacrifice to save them. I don't see that here in this world eternal life can be had apart from this sustaining grace that comes to us thru faith. From glory to glory...
If Adam could lose that life he once had by sin, then continuing in sin is the only danger we face. And that is shown many times in the NT as the danger even those sealed by the Spirit faced. The parousia of Christ presented a different additional danger because of the wrath of God that was coming in that day before the transition of the kingdom was fully come.
The only way one can die in their sins is if he turns back from following Christ either to the old law or to the world. Because sin still is able to harden the heart into unbelief and idolatry. Otherwise how can we understand the parable of the sower, that only the one who digs deep and prepares his heart makes it to his reward?
This is what to me, makes neither Calvin nor Arminus correct. It is a relationship that has been established in which we are expected to participate in faith and obedience. In that we receive the strength to persevere from the Father so that we continue to walk in forgiveness. The Lord didn't save us so that our old man could thrive in sins without recourse. No, He saved us so that once justified we would continue to walk in His sanctification so that our sins would be purged from us.
If this is not taking place in the heart of the believer, then one has to wonder about his confession in the first place or why it may be that God has not permitted him to go on. But as long as there is breath, there is hope. But what hope remains for a man who has forsaken his only Hope in Christ? If the gospel brings us salvation hope then continuing to hear and believe that gospel is what will carry us thru.
1 Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
The way, the truth and the life is Jesus. We must walk as He walked in this world, fully depending on the Father for our holiness and righteousness. There is no other way than that if one is to keep his hope for the eternal life he has been promised and has already tasted in this life. We still have to arrive at our destination - which is not in this world!
And I don't think Preterism can give us a better hope than that either. If our confidence remains in Christ, we will have what we desire.
|
|
|
|
Post by adhitthana on Oct 1, 2009 21:41:24 GMT -5
Since immortality only comes by way of the Gospel (2 Tim 1:10), perhaps our present definition of immortality (as never being able to die physically) has become somewhat skewed. Also, our present understanding of Adam and Eve being created immortal may also be skewed. Was mankind created with immortal (never dying) souls if immortality only comes by way of the Gospel? That is the question that must be answered if we are to pursue the eternal conscience torment theory... The traditional view as outlined by Augustine is that Adam was neither mortal (going to die definitely) nor immortal (unable to die) but capable of dying but not necessarily going to die. In other words he could have lived indefinitely. Once we become immortal we cannot die. Here is a good article...http://custance.org/Library/SOTW/Part_I/chap6.html |
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Oct 2, 2009 7:34:30 GMT -5
Since immortality only comes by way of the Gospel (2 Tim 1:10), perhaps our present definition of immortality (as never being able to die physically) has become somewhat skewed. Also, our present understanding of Adam and Eve being created immortal may also be skewed. Was mankind created with immortal (never dying) souls if immortality only comes by way of the Gospel? That is the question that must be answered if we are to pursue the eternal conscience torment theory... The traditional view as outlined by Augustine is that Adam was neither mortal (going to die definitely) nor immortal (unable to die) but capable of dying but not necessarily going to die. In other words he could have lived indefinitely. Once we become immortal we cannot die. Here is a good article...http://custance.org/Library/SOTW/Part_I/chap6.html Briefly skimmed the article and on page two it said the following: "it is important once again to underscore the fact that in the present context the term immortal is being used entirely in its biological sense." A basic premise for his arguments stems from a presupposition. Sin death is not related to the physical! And on another note...many believe that Adam was created in the Garden of Eden. This is patently false. And if not false, then the writer of Genesis made a mistake...you choose. See below. Genesis 3:22-23 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken |
|
|
|
Post by adhitthana on Oct 2, 2009 8:17:58 GMT -5
So, according to preterism and how we define death, it is they who are not Christians...although I would never push this point to the extreme. Not all preterists have the same ideas about "death". For instance I am preterist because I think all end times stuff (eschatology) happened. I dont agree with some things some preterists say about death and the resurrection. I dont agree with some ideas found in "covenant theology" or "pantelism". However I am still full preterist. |
|
|
|
Post by adhitthana on Oct 2, 2009 8:42:07 GMT -5
delete
|
|
|
|
Post by adhitthana on Oct 2, 2009 8:51:07 GMT -5
Since immortality only comes by way of the Gospel (2 Tim 1:10), It is possible to read this verse not as saying that immortality comes by way of the gospel but rather that the gospel brings it to light. Iwould not define immortality as not being able to die physically (despite the AC article I refrenced ;-) ) Maybe , the gospel just brings it to light? |
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Oct 2, 2009 8:54:15 GMT -5
Since immortality only comes by way of the Gospel (2 Tim 1:10), It is possible to read this verse not as saying that immortality comes by way of the gospel but rather that the gospel brings it to light. Iwould not define immortality as not being able to die physically (despite the AC article I refrenced ;-) ) Maybe , the gospel just brings it to light? Light (life) - darkness (death) Jesus is the Light of the world, and by world I am not referencing planet earth but the "orderly system" (kosmos) of old covenant Judaism - another area in which things get so terribly skewed. |
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Oct 2, 2009 8:57:18 GMT -5
So, according to preterism and how we define death, it is they who are not Christians...although I would never push this point to the extreme. Not all preterists have the same ideas about "death". For instance I am preterist because I think all end times stuff (eschatology) happened. I dont agree with some things some preterists say about death and the resurrection. I dont agree with some ideas found in "covenant theology" or "pantelism". However I am still full preterist. I would agree that the basic foundation of full-preterism is the fact that Jesus Christ already came the second time. From that conclusion springs a fountain of other things...typical of an eschatological explosion. Terms and definitions seem to be the emphasis these days... |
|
|
|
Post by bryan729 on Nov 27, 2009 19:11:02 GMT -5
I have'nt read the whole thread but most of the posts in the first two pages, and all I can say is there were great posts representing various angles. Well done folks, I'm impressed. Like most here in this forum, I'm not concrete on my beliefs on Hell or the future of the unrepentant sinner. I too, remain open on this topic. Thanks for the good reads.
|
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Nov 29, 2009 13:46:35 GMT -5
When I was being taught my religion I accepted that hell was a real place with real torment going on. This may be the way it is but I am now undecided. It may be just a place of no existence. It may be that when those outside of faith die, they just cease to exist. Its a troubling subject for me and I will need to devote some study time to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by MoGrace2U on Nov 29, 2009 13:58:26 GMT -5
When I was being taught my religion I accepted that hell was a real place with real torment going on. This may be the way it is but I am now undecided. It may be just a place of no existence. It may be that when those outside of faith die, they just cease to exist. Its a troubling subject for me and I will need to devote some study time to it. I sometimes wonder the same. Could it be that it is only covenant folk who face a literal existence in hell because God remembers His people. Whereas the wicked outside the covenant have no hope of God remembering them? Whatever the outcome or for who it pertains, it is still a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God if you know not what awaits you! Whether that place is only for 11 months as the Jews think or a minute or an eternity - it ought to be deterrent enough to help men reconsider the matter of whether they will choose life in Christ now or not. We are all ignorant of the matter, but Jesus was not, and we ought to hear Him (Deut 18:15) for He spoke of it in more detail than He did heaven, though heaven is mentioned more often. |
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Nov 29, 2009 14:56:40 GMT -5
something to ponder, for sure.
|
|
|
|
Post by Once4all on Nov 29, 2009 15:01:18 GMT -5
When I was being taught my religion I accepted that hell was a real place with real torment going on. This may be the way it is but I am now undecided. It may be just a place of no existence. It may be that when those outside of faith die, they just cease to exist. Its a troubling subject for me and I will need to devote some study time to it. I sometimes wonder the same. Could it be that it is only covenant folk who face a literal existence in hell because God remembers His people. Whereas the wicked outside the covenant have no hope of God remembering them?... Add me to this club of uncertainty regarding hell. I've had similar thoughts, Robin. Of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25, both seemed to consider themselves under the new covenant, but those who did not truly follow the ways of the Lord are cast into eternal punishment. Same in Matthew 7, those who called Jesus Lord and did things in his name were not ultimately welcomed by him and forced to depart. Bev |
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Nov 29, 2009 15:34:32 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder the same. Could it be that it is only covenant folk who face a literal existence in hell because God remembers His people. Whereas the wicked outside the covenant have no hope of God remembering them?... Add me to this club of uncertainty regarding hell. I've had similar thoughts, Robin. Of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25, both seemed to consider themselves under the new covenant, but those who did not truly follow the ways of the Lord are cast into eternal punishment. Same in Matthew 7, those who called Jesus Lord and did things in his name were not ultimately welcomed by him and forced to depart. Bev I totally agree with this. I don't think it can be any other way according to Daniel 7, 9 and 12. In fact It becomes even more clear to me, as one of the other sheep, what our relationship to God in this world is about. Futurist have a hard time disassociating themselves from things that strictly belonged to Israel and the grace that came into being which was for all Jews thereafter and all gentiles inclusively. This is partly the reason Jewishness has no bearing at all with our position in Christ. The destruction of Jerusalem absolutely had to occur for the foundation of truth in Christ to be completed. |
|
|
|
Post by Michael J Loomis on Nov 30, 2009 0:52:09 GMT -5
I think Steve Gregg does a great job in his audio messages on hell. I think the scriptures are speaking about the realities we live in now and not the hereafter. What does the future hold for those outside of a covenant relationship with God? Well...For those in Christ it is eternal life. And I believe the other option speaks for itself.
|
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Nov 30, 2009 13:43:54 GMT -5
I believe we have been taught a Dante's Inferno version of hell.
Death and hell have been tossed! Is this not metaphorical for its complete and utter passing. No longer do saints of God have to sleep in the dust waiting for their redemption.
The fire - the destruction of Jerusalem and the old covenant economy. This was the judgment. As Christians we no longer are under condemnation.
For those who are not God's, well they miss the wonderful glory of eternity. I think they become non-existent. That is punishment enough.
|
|
|
|
Post by Michael J Loomis on Nov 30, 2009 14:38:35 GMT -5
Oooohhh...Anhilationism. Such a controversial stance to take. 8)
I think any discussion about the eternal destiny of those not in Christ is just speculation. Once you become a preterist the proof texts for hell end up in the lake of fire.
|
|
|
|
Post by Once4all on Nov 30, 2009 15:55:10 GMT -5
I wonder if a total abandonment of the concept of hell (some sort of punishment for the wicked) is what leads to universalism?
If the destruction of Jerusalem and the old covenant economy was all there was to the judgment and eternal punishment spoken of in the NT, then eternal life may also be limited to an earthly fulfillment, as well.
No, I don't believe that. I believe the spirits of those in Christ live on for eternity. But, as Job said to his wife, "Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept evil." By embracing the possibility of eternal life, yet talking ourselves out of the possibility of eternal punishment, we close one eye to the God who makes peace and creates evil.
|
|
|
|
Post by Michael J Loomis on Nov 30, 2009 16:25:08 GMT -5
I'm not saying that a hell or a place for the wicked post life on earth doesn't exist. I'm just saying that I don't see it in the scriptures. As a preterist that is. And as far as the universalism thing...I don't think it has anything to do with abandoning the concept of hell. I think that's more of a reading into scripture than anything.
The Bible doesn't talk about cars either. However they do exist.
Mike
|
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Nov 30, 2009 16:28:50 GMT -5
I'm not saying that a hell or a place for the wicked post life on earth doesn't exist. I'm just saying that I don't see it in the scriptures. As a preterist that is. And as far as the universalism thing...I don't think it has anything to do with abandoning the concept of hell. I think that's more of a reading into scripture than anything. The Bible doesn't talk about cars either. However they do exist. Mike Ahhh, c'mon Mike...if Revelation speaks of helicopters and bar codes, surely it speaks of cars too....  |
|
|
|
Post by Michael J Loomis on Nov 30, 2009 18:27:51 GMT -5
Yeah...I guess it does say something in Daniel about people traveling to and fro. Must be in cars.
|
|
|
|
Post by stephenpatrick on Nov 30, 2009 21:55:59 GMT -5
Good evening,
I read through the entire thread again. Great study.
I may have missed this somewhere in this study so if I'm repeating what someone else said, sorry.
In 2 Timothy 1: 8-10 it says,
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
If it can be established, or already has been, that in verse 10 the word "death" means "sleep, soul sleep, unconscious state of rest, sleep in the dust of the earth, ., then would that mean that there isn't any "ultimate termination" of the spirit of man ever? No one will sleep forever anymore. Even unbelievers? If that is true, then, I guess wouldn't we have to believe that an unsaved man's spirit will somehow be punished?
Does that make sense? Or is this passage speaking of soul sleep or the abolishment of death for believers only?
Thanks.
Steve
|
|
|
|
Post by Michael J Loomis on Nov 30, 2009 22:52:08 GMT -5
I think at least in some sense this needs to be kept within the context of Old Covenant/New Covenant transition.
|
|
