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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 10, 2010 16:34:28 GMT -5
Greetings All.
I have been a Trinitarian for 36 years. I knew who my Savour was from the day the Holy Spirit showed me Jesus who in turn showed me the Father. I will never trade the Jesus I first believed in for another Jesus.
I knew Jesus was God before I knew of the Trinity.
Blessings, Peace and love to you all!
Keith
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Post by Morris on Dec 10, 2010 16:44:08 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum, Keith!
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 10, 2010 17:49:43 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum, Keith! Thanks! |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 10, 2010 18:05:45 GMT -5
Greetings All. I have been a Trinitarian for 36 years. I knew who my Savour was from the day the Holy Spirit showed me Jesus who in turn showed me the Father. I will never trade the Jesus I first believed in for another Jesus. I knew Jesus was God before I knew of the Trinity. Blessings, Peace and love to you all! Keith Hi Keith, Good to see you maaan! You forgot to mention that you are a futurist. We could use a futurist around here to liven things up a little. Jack |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 10, 2010 19:48:28 GMT -5
Welcome to Preterist Voice forums, Keith! That's certainly an unusual way to introduce yourself.
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 13, 2010 14:05:55 GMT -5
Welcome to Preterist Voice forums, Keith! That's certainly an unusual way to introduce yourself. Thanks! |
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 13, 2010 14:08:38 GMT -5
Greetings All. I have been a Trinitarian for 36 years. I knew who my Savour was from the day the Holy Spirit showed me Jesus who in turn showed me the Father. I will never trade the Jesus I first believed in for another Jesus. I knew Jesus was God before I knew of the Trinity. Blessings, Peace and love to you all! Keith Hi Keith, Good to see you maaan! You forgot to mention that you are a futurist. We could use a futurist around here to liven things up a little. Jack Hi Jack Yea I still can't get past Revelations 21:4 as being fulfilled yet.  Keith |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 13, 2010 14:30:40 GMT -5
Worshippingjesus said:
and,
First Corinthians 15 says that death is destroyed WHEN all things are made subject to Christ. Second Timothy says that Christ has abolished death (past tense) and Ephesians says that God put all things under Christ's feet.
Therefore, Revelation 21:4 has been fulfilled. "He that believes in Me shall NEVER DIE."
Roo
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 13, 2010 14:56:21 GMT -5
Worshippingjesus said: and, First Corinthians 15 says that death is destroyed WHEN all things are made subject to Christ. Second Timothy says that Christ has abolished death (past tense) and Ephesians says that God put all things under Christ's feet. Therefore, Revelation 21:4 has been fulfilled. "He that believes in Me shall NEVER DIE."Roo Hi Jack So then when your heart gives out and they put you into a grave that means you didn't die? What about no more sorrow and pain and sickness? WJ |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 14, 2010 10:53:58 GMT -5
Worshippingjesus wrote: Hi Keith, It has been several months since we discoursed about Revelation 21. I had directed you to Isaiah 65-66 which speaks about the new heaven and earth and the new Jerusalem. It is said that there shall be no more sorrow but there is indeed physical death. So Revelation 21:4 cannot be speaking about the abolition of physical death. It cannot contradict Isaiah's prophecy. Remember that I had said that the old covenant saints went to hades to sleep until the resurrection? When Christ returned in ad70 hades was cast into the lake of fire and so God's people go immediately to God's presence now. We don't "sleep." We cast off these tents of flesh and go straight to be with Christ without sleeping. We do not "die." We enter into His presence with our heavenly bodies (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). About the abolition of sorrow. Keep in mind that under the Mosaic law the Jews were commanded to practise the ceremonial mourning for their sins. But now the sin of the people of God has been taken away and they do not mourn but they rejoice (Rom. 5:1-2). This is the meaning of the expression "there shall be no more sorrow." WJ: Please explain 22:2: Spiritual sickness still exists in the new earth. Why would there be a need for healing? If spiritual sickness still exists, then physical sickness still exists. The Futurists fail to see that physical sickness will never be eradicted from the earth. It is eradicated when we get to heaven. Love you maaaan!  Jack |
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Post by Morris on Dec 14, 2010 15:33:15 GMT -5
Hi Jack So then when your heart gives out and they put you into a grave that means you didn't die? What about no more sorrow and pain and sickness? WJ Well, I'm not Roo, but there are a few scriptural things to note. When Paul describes us as having been buried with Christ and as having risen with Him, did he mean that we actually died and rose physically already? Or when Paul said in Romans 8:10, " And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness", did he intend to say that Christ can't be in you until you physically die, and pass away from flesh into spirit? Of course not, yet he does tell us that your body is dead. In the Greek it is emphasized, not appearing in the English translation above, with "in fact" or "indeed", and serves to bring out the contrast between our body being dead and our spirit being alive. So, I can reverse your question which asks, "So then when your heart gives out and they put you into a grave that means you didn't die?", and ask my own; "How can my body be dead already if my heart still beats and am not yet put into a grave?". Yet Paul explicitly says that "we were entombed together with Him through immersion into death" (Romans 6:4). We have been placed in the 'grave' and then resurrected. Furthermore, when my heart stops and my body dies, does that mean that *I* die? Jesus declared that " whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die". Can we contradict that and say that we who believe will die when our body is placed in the grave? We have to ask ourselves, as Jesus asked, " Do you believe this?" (John 11:26). So, what about "sorrow and pain and sickness". In Luke chapter 21 Jesus tells His audience that " they will lay their hands on you and persecute you", " You will be betrayed", " you will be hated by all", " and they will put some of you to death". But then He immediately reassures them, " But not a hair of your head shall be lost"! So my question here is 'which of Jesus' statements were true'? Was it the one about persecution and death, or the one about not losing a hair on their head? It is all about context, that is, what we consider worthy of being sorrowful about, or pained over, or what is true sickness. Even examining the passage in Revelation 21 shows that this is current, not only in our time, but even when the New Testament was being written. What did John see? He saw a new heaven and new earth in verse 1. 2 Corinthians 5:17 tells us, " Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new". The Greek really brings it out as 'I am telling you to see the new creation of all things.' In verse 2, John sees the Jerusalem from heaven. Back in chapter 3 we see that those who overcome will have written on them the name of God, and the name of His Holy City, and even Jesus' name! (Revelation 3:12). Why? Because that name is all the same; it is the name of Jesus. The author of Hebrews says to his readers that they have already " come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" and " to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant". Jesus is that city from heaven in which we dwell, and it is there that God dwells in us as His tabernacle. Verse 3 continues this concept I just described above. John sees the tent of God among men and that He will dwell (literally, "He shall be tabernacling") in us. Again, the NT already spoke of this in Ephesians 2:19-22, " Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit." Then we come to Revelation 21:4. So far, the things mentioned were already in effect, and even here, the sorrow and pain and sickness, is aligned with that which was old and has passed away. Then it is said "Behold, I make all things new", echoing what is written in 2 Corinthians 5:17. And again it is commanded to us to see that 'all things are presently made new by Him'. This is/was presently in effect and done by Christ Himself. |
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 15, 2010 15:00:41 GMT -5
Hi Jack and Morris Thanks for your response. I see how you come up with the explanation for sorrow, death but I do not see how you come up with "No more pain".  |
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Post by Morris on Dec 15, 2010 16:02:18 GMT -5
Hi Jack and Morris Thanks for your response. I see how you come up with the explanation for sorrow, death but I do not see how you come up with "No more pain". What is that you think "pain" means in Revelation 21:4? If Jesus said to his listeners that " they will lay their hands on you and persecute you" and " some of you to death" yet " not a hair of your head shall be lost", what do you think are the implications to our suffering "pain"? [Edit - I read this back to myself and I can see how someone might think it as being condescending. These are simply questions to cause further thinking, as if we were there together and about to discuss them.] |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 16, 2010 12:34:39 GMT -5
Hi Jack and Morris Thanks for your response. I see how you come up with the explanation for sorrow, death but I do not see how you come up with "No more pain". Hi Keith, What about the fact that the tree of life is for the " healing of the nations"? It is obvious that the new earth is not a world without sin. Isaiah's account of the new earth even says that there are sinners present (Isaiah 65:20). The new earth is the new covenant age. Sin is not eradicated from the new earth anymore than it is eradicated from the man who is a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). Heaven is the only place where there is no sin. Jack |
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 18, 2010 10:58:28 GMT -5
Okay Guys.
Where is the explanation for the scripture that says there will be "no more pain" or that pain will cease to exist?
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Rev 21:4
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Post by Allyn on Dec 18, 2010 11:37:29 GMT -5
Okay Guys. Where is the explanation for the scripture that says there will be " no more pain" or that pain will cease to exist? And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Rev 21:4 Look at it from this angle. If the time being spoken of was the time of the New Covenant when we are not bound by the Law but under grace and the power of sactification through the Spirit in Jesus Christ - what would that pain and sorrow and crying and death be that is no longer? |
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Post by preteristaynrand on Dec 18, 2010 22:44:00 GMT -5
Spiritual pain, Spiritual sorrow, Spiritual crying and mostly Spiritual death.
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Post by mtymousie on Dec 19, 2010 10:08:41 GMT -5
Hi, Keith. Peter said that patience was one of those necessary virtues. Which means I have a lot of growing to do ... Anyways, I want to present a short article that I hope will show the distinction between the physical realm we are so wrapped up in and the spiritual realm that God is trying to teach us about: No More Mourning "Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isa.59:1-2) "For the wages of sin is death ... " (Rom.6:23a) Eternal separation from God. How utterly sad. How utterly painful to the heart. Utter despair ... ... but wait ... a Light appears in the darkness of death and tears and pain: "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me; because the LORD hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek; He hath sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" (Isa.61:1-2) "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29) A Light of Hope for those mourning their separation from God: "Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted." (Matt.5:4) When the witnesses saw the High Priest returning out of the clouds without sin, their mourning and tears and pain turned to joy and comfort forevermore because they then knew that God had accepted the Sacrifice and that the second death no longer held any power over those who believe and obey the precious Lamb of God (Heb.9:24-28). "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev.21:4) Praise God for his marvelous Sword of Light which slices through the darkness! Dale aka preteristmouse |
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 20, 2010 16:50:07 GMT -5
OK Guys.
I must be missing something. The scripture clearly says "No More Pain", the Greek literally means "Cease to exist".
So if you "spiritualize" it away then you are saying that you never "mourn" or "have pain" in your Spirit or "New man" and it doesn't apply to the natural yet we live in a natural world of which you guys claim will never end, is that right?
It clearly seems to me that "No More Pain" means "No More Pain" yet there is pain all around us and I am born again by his Spirit and part of the "New Creation" yet I still hurt and feel pain at times.
Again, how do you explain this when it clearly says "Pain will cease to exist"?
WJ
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Post by Allyn on Dec 20, 2010 18:53:38 GMT -5
I'm almost certain that I will not be able to convey the new person within me who has become a citizen of the kingdom of God after having come to know the difference from when I was just a believer but had not subjected myself to the will of God through His Son. But it is certainly there as a difference in both life and contentment. When Revelations speaks of no more sorrow or pain or tears it is to me what I experience in this present condition I am in by knowing and relying on the King of kings. Its not a metaphorical state I am in but a true condition of the heart. The temptation to be sorrowful which can bring on pain and tears raises its ugly head at times but it does not master me. Christ does and in that there is Joy in knowing the Lord is God.
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 20, 2010 19:17:55 GMT -5
I'm almost certain that I will not be able to convey the new person within me who has become a citizen of the kingdom of God after having come to know the difference from when I was just a believer but had not subjected myself to the will of God through His Son. But it is certainly there as a difference in both life and contentment. When Revelations speaks of no more sorrow or pain or tears it is to me what I experience in this present condition I am in by knowing and relying on the King of kings. Its not a metaphorical state I am in but a true condition of the heart. The temptation to be sorrowful which can bring on pain and tears raises its ugly head at times but it does not master me. Christ does and in that there is Joy in knowing the Lord is God. Thanks for your response. My, so you never feel pain? What if you smack you hand with a hammer? Isn't that pain? Even if it is natural pain, does not the promise of the New Heavens and New earth include the entire man? If so and we are living in the New heavens and the New earth then why should the hammer hurt according to the promise? So if you lose a child or a loved one to a tragic death then you would not feel pain, but merely the "temptation" to feel pain and sorrow? That does not seem to be realistic to me. Sorry. Keith |
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Post by Allyn on Dec 20, 2010 19:28:23 GMT -5
I could never had said before "Rejoice in the Lord" But I can now. Yes, of course I would feel loss that brings pain from that loss but it is not a pain without hope or a sorrow without hope.
I told you in advance that I may not be able to convey this which I know.
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Post by Once4all on Dec 20, 2010 22:20:32 GMT -5
Revelation 21:3-7 NASB
(3) And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
(4) and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
(5) And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
(6) Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
(7) "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
Why can't the above be describing what occurs for believers after their death? (The highlights above are just to show the past tense.)
Romans 8:16-23 NASB
(16) The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
(17) and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
(18) For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
(19) For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
(20) For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
(21) that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
(22) For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
(23) And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
The "redemption (apolutrōsis) of our body" is also of physical death, a separation from the body. Literally, a release or loosening from the body. The prefix apo means away from or off.
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 22, 2010 15:14:33 GMT -5
Okay Guys. Where is the explanation for the scripture that says there will be " no more pain" or that pain will cease to exist? And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Rev 21:4 Hi Keith, I have not been feeling well at all so I must keep this brief. The crying and pain that have been abolished was that which was inflicted upon the old covenant people of God by Moses. But now the people of God REJOICE in Christ (Rom. 5:1-2). Please read Isaiah's account of the new earth. It also says that there will be no more crying or pain. Yet we see that sinners are still present there. The 'former things' that have passed away are the things of the Mosaic covenant. Spurgeon on the New Heavens and Earth: See the link I have provided for more of Spurgeon's comments on the new heavens and earth. Note that he said that we do not remember the former things. Do you remember mourning for fear of condemnation? Merry Christmas brother, Jack |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 22, 2010 16:00:39 GMT -5
Hi Jack Yea I still can't get past Revelation 21:4 as being fulfilled yet. Keith Hi Keith, We often attempt to understand the NT in OUR terms and in OUR way of thinking. Living up to the old covenant satandard was impossible. It was a great burden. Jesus arrives on the scene and says in Matthew 11:28-30, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Jesus was speaking to the Jews. If you understand the new Jerusalem to be the church it should quickly fall into place. Here is something I wrote over at Narrow Path Ministries that might help: www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3482&sid=42e32e9555044735c49b99e5a591db17 |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 23, 2010 12:19:01 GMT -5
Mellontes wrote:
Hi Ted,
I can show that you have not successfully connected Ezekiel's prophecy with the Revelation and the church. Chapter 43 speaks about the offering of animal sacrifices for atonement of sins. Animal sacrifices have been done away once for all. Therefore, Ezekiel was fulfilled long before the new covenant was instituted.
Keith should know where I stand on this for he has read my views about this elsewhere.
Roo
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Post by mellontes on Dec 23, 2010 13:39:39 GMT -5
Mellontes wrote: Hi Ted, I can show that you have not successfully connected Ezekiel's prophecy with the Revelation and the church. Chapter 43 speaks about the offering of animal sacrifices for atonement of sins. Animal sacrifices have been done away once for all. Therefore, Ezekiel was fulfilled long before the new covenant was instituted. Keith should know where I stand on this for he has read my views about this elsewhere. Roo Uhhhh, could you be a little more specific? I don't remember talking about Ezekiel 43... But perhaps you are saying that 2 Corinthians 6:16 is not a reference to Ezekiel 37:26-28 in regard to the " everlasting covenant" where the sanctuary shall be in the midst " for evermore" (mentioned twice)? Is this what you really meant? Ezekiel 37:26-28 - Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. Perhaps a separate thread would be in order. It is way off the topic of trinitarianism... |
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Post by didymus on Dec 23, 2010 15:21:17 GMT -5
Greetings All. I have been a Trinitarian for 36 years. I knew who my Savour was from the day the Holy Spirit showed me Jesus who in turn showed me the Father. I will never trade the Jesus I first believed in for another Jesus. I knew Jesus was God before I knew of the Trinity. Blessings, Peace and love to you all! Keith Since you are a trinitarian, can you explain what the trinity is in a thread I have prepared for that purpose. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 23, 2010 15:23:15 GMT -5
Ted,
I started a new threrad in Bible Prophecy.
Roo
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 27, 2010 11:01:55 GMT -5
I could never had said before "Rejoice in the Lord" But I can now. Yes, of course I would feel loss that brings pain from that loss but it is not a pain without hope or a sorrow without hope. I told you in advance that I may not be able to convey this which I know. Thanks my friend for your honesty! WJ |
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