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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 27, 2010 11:26:48 GMT -5
Revelation 21:3-7 NASB (3) And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, (4) and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." (5) And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." (6) Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. (7) "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. Why can't the above be describing what occurs for believers after their death? (The highlights above are just to show the past tense.) Hi Once4all Because you guys claim that we are living in the New heavens and the New earth now, which would mean it is no longer in the past tense. You left out the first few verses that state... "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away"; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Rev 21:1, 2 " The first heaven and earth has passed away" which includes the sorrow, crying, tears,, death and pain... And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: "FOR the former things are passed away". Rev 21:4 The reason there is no more sorrow, crying, tears,, death and pain is because the text says... "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Rev 21:1 and "FOR the former things are passed away" Rev 21:4 Sorry, I do not find your answer satisfactory. The text in no way mentions that this only comes to pass when a believer dies. That explanation seems to be contradictory to what you believe and self defeating to me.  Blessings Keith |
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 27, 2010 18:17:20 GMT -5
Worshippingjesus wrote: Hi Keith, It has been several months since we discoursed about Revelation 21. I had directed you to Isaiah 65-66 which speaks about the new heaven and earth and the new Jerusalem. It is said that there shall be no more sorrow but there is indeed physical death. So Revelation 21:4 cannot be speaking about the abolition of physical death. It cannot contradict Isaiah's prophecy. Hi Jack And Isaiahs prophesy cannot contradict Johns vision that states "Pain will cease to exist". So what do we have? So far nothing for me yet. I am not claiming to be a Biblical expert in prophesy. But I am willing to learn. Like I said, I have been examining your arguments and have not found enough evidence for me to believe that we are living in the "New Heavens and New Earth that the scriptures speak of. Remember that I had said that the old covenant saints went to hades to sleep until the resurrection? When Christ returned in ad70 hades was cast into the lake of fire and so God's people go immediately to God's presence now. We don't "sleep." We cast off these tents of flesh and go straight to be with Christ without sleeping. We do not "die." We enter into His presence with our heavenly bodies (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). So what about all those that "died in Christ" (this is a Biblical term) before he came in 70 AD, did they have to wait for the promise though Jesus said "it is finished" when he died? How fair is that? About the abolition of sorrow. Keep in mind that under the Mosaic law the Jews were commanded to practise the ceremonial mourning for their sins. But now the sin of the people of God has been taken away and they do not mourn but they rejoice (Rom. 5:1-2). This is the meaning of the expression "there shall be no more sorrow." WJ: Please explain 22:2: Spiritual sickness still exists in the new earth. Why would there be a need for healing? If spiritual sickness still exists, then physical sickness still exists. The Futurists fail to see that physical sickness will never be eradicted from the earth. It is eradicated when we get to heaven. Love you maaaan!  Jack But Jack, can't you see that sickness would mean also pain. It seems to me that Preterist fail to see that in the New Heavens and the New earth John speaks of there being "no more pain" therfore that would mean there is no more "sorrow, crying, tears, sickness, or death. Blessings Keith |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 27, 2010 18:45:22 GMT -5
Revelation 21:3-7 NASB (3) And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, (4) and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." (5) And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." (6) Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. (7) "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. Why can't the above be describing what occurs for believers after their death? (The highlights above are just to show the past tense.) Hi Once4all Because you guys claim that we are living in the New heavens and the New earth now, which would mean it is no longer in the past tense. You left out the first few verses that state... "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away"; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Rev 21:1, 2 " The first heaven and earth has passed away" which includes the sorrow, crying, tears,, death and pain... And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: "FOR the former things are passed away". Rev 21:4 The reason there is no more sorrow, crying, tears,, death and pain is because the text says... "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Rev 21:1 and "FOR the former things are passed away" Rev 21:4 Sorry, I do not find your answer satisfactory. The text in no way mentions that this only comes to pass when a believer dies. That explanation seems to be contradictory to what you believe and self defeating to me. Blessings Keith Hi Keith. That's why I formed my comment as a question. I was asking anyone (including my fellow preterists here) why those promises could not be things that are fulfilled after death. They are presently fulfilled in that the work of Christ made them available for us, but we do not realize them until we put off our current "body of death." While we are in the flesh (our fleshly bodies/our earthly tent), we still experience suffering, crying, and pain, just as Jesus did while he was in the flesh. |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 27, 2010 21:43:17 GMT -5
Hi Once4all Because you guys claim that we are living in the New heavens and the New earth now, which would mean it is no longer in the past tense. You left out the first few verses that state... "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away"; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Rev 21:1, 2 " The first heaven and earth has passed away" which includes the sorrow, crying, tears,, death and pain... And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: "FOR the former things are passed away". Rev 21:4 The reason there is no more sorrow, crying, tears,, death and pain is because the text says... "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Rev 21:1 and "FOR the former things are passed away" Rev 21:4 Sorry, I do not find your answer satisfactory. The text in no way mentions that this only comes to pass when a believer dies. That explanation seems to be contradictory to what you believe and self defeating to me. Blessings Keith Hi Keith, I agree with you. The passage does say nothing about death. It speaks of all these things happening in the NHNE (New heaven, new earth) which is equated with the same time or thing as the new Jerusalem, which comes out of heaven - the heavenly Jerusalem...the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26). The new Jerusalem is not a physical cube. It is, however, the dwelling place of the saints. And where do we dwell? We dwell in Christ. We are the new creation (2 Cor 5:17) of the new covenant. The pain, sorrow, etc. are figurative of the old covenant burdens. Our burden is light. The new Jerusalem is the church (not the physical bricks and mortar stuff). We become members of this body, which is Christ. We are the new temples. The old system has been vanquished and will never return again. Jesus Christ was the FINAL sacrifice. These things don't aoccur at death; they occur at salvation. We don't become new creations at death. And one last point that no one here likes to talk about. What first heavens and earth had a sea (Rev 21:1) |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 28, 2010 13:45:25 GMT -5
Worshippingjesus said:
Keith,
The English rendering "pain" in our translations reflects Futurist bias. The Greek word "basanizo" actually means "torment" (See Strong's# 928-29). It is the same word translated "torment" in Revelation 14:11 which says of the wicked that "the smoke of their torment shall rise up forever and ever."
Would you agree that there is no more torment for the Christian NOW? Would you agree that God's people now are not under the Mosaic system which tormented the people of God and that we now rejoice in salvation?
You have not yet reconciled John's vision of the new earth with Isaiah's. Isaiah made clear reference to physical death and the presence of sinners. I challenge you to observe the WHOLE counsel of God on this issue as you admonish non-trinitarians to observe the WHOLE counsel of God over at HN.
The gospel is still preached in the new earth. The Spirit and the Bride invite men to come and take the water of life freely (22:17). The water of life flows from the throne of God in the new earth (22:1-2). The leaves of the tree of life are for the healing of the nations (22:1-2). Does not this "healing" have reference to sin?
Love ya maaaan!
Jack
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Post by mellontes on Dec 28, 2010 14:01:11 GMT -5
"The gospel is still preached in the new earth."
Not true. The NHNE is not an umbrella system governing all of humanity. That leads to Universalism because it is in this NHNE wherein righteousness dwells.
Righteousness is only availed throguh Jesus. This we all agree on. The only way to His righteousness is by becoming the new creation (2 Cor 5:17) in Christ. This is the new covenant. We are the new creations dwelling in the new city - new Jerusalem. This is only possible for Christians. The NHNE is not a place. Think of it as an understanding a way of thinking, a consciousness, if you will.
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 28, 2010 15:09:07 GMT -5
"The gospel is still preached in the new earth." Not true. The NHNE is not an umbrella system governing all of humanity. That leads to Universalism because it is in this NHNE wherein righteousness dwells. Righteousness is only availed throguh Jesus. This we all agree on. The only way to His righteousness is by becoming the new creation (2 Cor 5:17) in Christ. This is the new covenant. We are the new creations dwelling in the new city - new Jerusalem. This is only possible for Christians. The NHNE is not a place. Think of it as an understanding a way of thinking, a consciousness, if you will. You're quite mistaken sir! The water of life flows in the streets the NJ which descended to the NE. The Spirit and the Bride invite men to come to the water of life and drink. This is clearly the offer of salvation. How does this infer Universalism? Only those in the NJ may drink the water. The rest of mankind is kept outside the gates of the NJ. They could never come and drink because they do not have access to the city. I tried to answer Keith's argument about the so called abolition of physical pain and you have to go and create confusion. Roo |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 28, 2010 15:59:32 GMT -5
Roo,
Sorry if you find it confusing. I don't see it that way at all.
If all men are in the NHNE, then all are saved. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
The new creation in Christ IS the NHNE. Most won't look at it this way though.
2 Peter 3:13 - Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
The "we" is not referring to the lost...
What was the heaven and earth that has passed away?
Were the Babylonians part of this old heaven and earth? (NO)
How does the old heaven and earth compare with the new heaven and earth? Are athiests part of this NHNE? (NO)
Most consider the old heaven and earth as dealing with the physical temple system of sacrifices and offerings. [Hence the jot and tittle reference of Matthew 5:18]
Is not then the NHNE a different temple system with different offerings and sacrifices (Christ as the final sacrifice)? Are Christians not those temples not made with hands?
Just saying...
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 28, 2010 17:31:20 GMT -5
Hi Once4all Because you guys claim that we are living in the New heavens and the New earth now, which would mean it is no longer in the past tense. You left out the first few verses that state... "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away"; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Rev 21:1, 2 " The first heaven and earth has passed away" which includes the sorrow, crying, tears,, death and pain... And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: "FOR the former things are passed away". Rev 21:4 The reason there is no more sorrow, crying, tears,, death and pain is because the text says... "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Rev 21:1 and "FOR the former things are passed away" Rev 21:4 Sorry, I do not find your answer satisfactory. The text in no way mentions that this only comes to pass when a believer dies. That explanation seems to be contradictory to what you believe and self defeating to me. Blessings Keith Hi Keith. That's why I formed my comment as a question. I was asking anyone (including my fellow preterists here) why those promises could not be things that are fulfilled after death. They are presently fulfilled in that the work of Christ made them available for us, but we do not realize them until we put off our current "body of death." While we are in the flesh (our fleshly bodies/our earthly tent), we still experience suffering, crying, and pain, just as Jesus did while he was in the flesh. Hi Once4all  for your response! Then why wouldn't the "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Rev 21:1 and "FOR the former things are passed away" Rev 21:4 be future tense also since "suffering, crying, and pain" is included in the former things that passed away?  WJ |
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 28, 2010 17:47:16 GMT -5
The pain, sorrow, etc. are figurative of the old covenant burdens. Our burden is light. Hi mellontes Okay, so was the Old Covenant also figuritive? Because the pain is included in the " first heaven and the first earth which had passed away" Rev 21:1 and " the former things that passed away" Rev 21:4 I don't think that is what the writer means at all, especially since we can still come under the law. James 2:10 WJ |
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 28, 2010 18:20:57 GMT -5
Worshippingjesus said: Keith, The English rendering "pain" in our translations reflects Futurist bias. Hi Jack Whenever I hear you make a statement like this it doesn’t do any good to helping a futurist to see the truth. I could very well say the same of the Preterist when you use certain scriptures in our “translations” to support your view. Everyone has "Bias" Jack. The Greek word "basanizo" actually means "torment" (See Strong's# 928-29). It is the same word translated "torment" in Revelation 14:11 which says of the wicked that "the smoke of their torment shall rise up forever and ever." So what is the difference in pain and torment? Isn’t pain to a certain degree “torment”? Isn’t torment pain? Would you agree that there is no more torment for the Christian NOW? No I would not! Jesus said in the world you will have tribulation. Were the Apostles under the New Covenant? Did they experience torment and pain? Can you say that there are no Christians in the world who are still not suffering pain and torment and dying for their faith as Martyrs? Do you believe that dying of 3rd degree burns or cancer is not torment? Would you agree that God's people now are not under the Mosaic system which tormented the people of God and that we now rejopice in salvation? It seems to me that the Mosaic Law seems to be the Preterist answer for everything even though the text in question rarely mentions the term. I Love you Jack but I think you are spinning now. There is no scriptrure that I know of that says the "Mosaic system was torment". David said he "delighted" in the Law of God. You have not yet reconciled John's vision of the new earth with Isaiah's. Isaiah made clear reference to physical death and the presence of sinners. I challenge you to observe the WHOLE counsel of God on this issue as you admonish non-trinitarians to observe the WHOLE counsel of God over at HN. And you have not reconciled Rev 21:1-4 with Isaiah’s account. Could it be possible that the prophesies overlap as scriptures often do?. Could it be possible that all the events in question are not in chronological order? Could it be that Isaiah’s Prophesy is speaking of a different time that takes place before Rev 21:1-4 which is the consummation of all things? The gospel is still preached in the new earth. The Spirit and the Bride invite men to come and take the water of life freely (22:17). The water of life flows from the throne of God in the new earth (22:1-2). The leaves of the tree of life are for the healing of the nations (22:1-2). Does not this "healing" have reference to sin?Like I said Jack, scriptures are not always in chronological order and especially when you get into Revelations, for it obviously does not have all things in chronological order and is open for various opinions and interpretations. Sorry Jack, I am still not convinced that we are living in the NH&NE for it seems clear to me that Revelations 21:1-4 has not been fulfilled yet because "pain' has not ceased to exist. Blessings Keith |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 28, 2010 21:36:50 GMT -5
The pain, sorrow, etc. are figurative of the old covenant burdens. Our burden is light. Hi mellontes Okay, so was the Old Covenant also figuritive? Because the pain is included in the " first heaven and the first earth which had passed away" Rev 21:1 and " the former things that passed away" Rev 21:4 I don't think that is what the writer means at all, especially since we can still come under the law. James 2:10 WJ Perhaps figurative was the wrong word to use. We both know the old covenant was NOT figurative. It was a real burden on those (Israelites and proselytes) to keep the law. All those offerings for this and that, the ceremony, the feasts days, the unclean rules, lepers, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum... Now, not knowing what your general theology is (Dispensational, amill, post mill, or some variant mix) it makes it difficult to explain much further. I guess it all boils down to what you believe the old heaven and earth was. So, what do you believe the old heaven and earth was?Also, how would you explain the associated usage of every jot and tittle in regard to your meaning of the old heaven and earth?We need to get our definitions out there so as to not misunderstand one another...It doesn't do either one of us any good if you think one thing when I think another... |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 29, 2010 13:30:45 GMT -5
Keith said:
Hi Keith,
Come on Keith! You know very well that bias exists in our translations.
Is all torment physical pain? You assume that it is speaking about the abolition of physical pain. God has not given us the spirit of fear because "fear has torment." We do not fear condemnation for our sins as they did under Moses. Therefore, it can be said now that there is "no more torment."
Prove that Revelation 21 is speaking about the abolition of physical pain brother.
They do not suffer the torment of condemnation which as they did under Moses. This is what the new earth (the new covenant) is all about.
Please give us an example of your "overlap" theory.
Please read it again Keith. The water of life flows from the streets of the new Jerusalem AFTER it descends upon the new earth. THEN the Spirit and the Bride invite men to come and take of the water of life freely. The chronology is clear my brother!
The people of God do not fear condemnation now. This is the "torment" that has been abolished. We rejoice in our salvation.
Jack
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Post by Once4all on Dec 30, 2010 1:11:02 GMT -5
Hi Keith. That's why I formed my comment as a question. I was asking anyone (including my fellow preterists here) why those promises could not be things that are fulfilled after death. They are presently fulfilled in that the work of Christ made them available for us, but we do not realize them until we put off our current "body of death." While we are in the flesh (our fleshly bodies/our earthly tent), we still experience suffering, crying, and pain, just as Jesus did while he was in the flesh. Hi Once4all for your response! Then why wouldn't the "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" Rev 21:1 and "FOR the former things are passed away" Rev 21:4 be future tense also since "suffering, crying, and pain" is included in the former things that passed away? WJ Isaiah 42:9 NASB (9) "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you." In Isaiah 42:9 and elsewhere in Isaiah, the use of "former things" seems to refer to the fulfillment of prophecy, not the "destruction of things," which I think some people think of when they read that the former things have passed away (in Revelation). Revelation 21:4 KJV (4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. So, if instead of "passed away" in Revelation 21:4, we think "come to pass," how will that change how we think? Whatever had been prophesied that would cause death, sorrow, crying, and pain has come to pass. It's over. I know this answer is different from my previous one. I'm just thinking through the idea of "former things" based on how it was used in Isaiah. Revelation 21:4-5 NASB (4) and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." (5) And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." If what was prophesied to be destroyed was destroyed (the OC system of worship), what is the system that took its place? What was newly made? John 4:21,23 NASB (21) Jesus *said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. (23) "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. |
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