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Post by mellontes on Jun 28, 2010 11:26:29 GMT -5
What do the people here think the context of Isaiah 25:9 is about?
Isaiah 25:9 - And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation].
I am especially interested in:
1. What day the "in that day" represents.
2. What you think the phrase "he will save us" means.
3. What you think the phrase "in his salvation" means.
I believe that what Isaiah said here is foundational to New Testament truths...
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Post by Once4all on Jun 28, 2010 15:21:31 GMT -5
What do the people here think the context of Isaiah 25:9 is about? Isaiah 25:9 - And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation]. I am especially interested in: 1. What day the " in that day" represents. 2. What you think the phrase " he will save us" means. 3. What you think the phrase " in his salvation" means. I believe that what Isaiah said here is foundational to New Testament truths... Here's my first pass through the text. I don't know if there was an earlier fulfillment, I'm looking at end-time fulfillment. 1. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Refer to Isaiah 25:2, "For You have made a city into a heap, A fortified city into a ruin; A palace of strangers is a city no more, It will never be rebuilt." 2. Saved from the death brought by the Law and the corrupt overseers of it (Romans 3, 7:5, 8:2; 1 Corinthians 15:56). 3. The coming of the promised Messiah (Acts 13:23, Phillipians 3:20, 2 Timothy 1:10). |
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Post by mellontes on Jun 28, 2010 20:26:51 GMT -5
Here's my first pass through the text. I don't know if there was an earlier fulfillment, I'm looking at end-time fulfillment. 1. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Refer to Isaiah 25:2, "For You have made a city into a heap, A fortified city into a ruin; A palace of strangers is a city no more, It will never be rebuilt." 2. Saved from the death brought by the Law and the corrupt overseers of it (Romans 3, 7:5, 8:2; 1 Corinthians 15:56). 3. The coming of the promised Messiah (Acts 13:23, Philippians 3:20, 2 Timothy 1:10). Regarding point #3, which coming? You have picked both 1st and 2nd coming verses... |
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Post by Once4all on Jun 28, 2010 23:34:41 GMT -5
The context of the verse would support the 2nd coming.
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Post by mellontes on Jun 29, 2010 7:06:01 GMT -5
The context of the verse would support the 2nd coming. Which verse? You listed three in point #3. Acts 13:23 is 1st coming. Philippians 3:20 is 2nd coming. 2 Timothy 1:10 is 1st coming. I am confused. |
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Post by Morris on Jun 29, 2010 11:00:58 GMT -5
My personal view of this (all basically just about everything in Isaiah) is that it speaks of the work that Christ would do.
I don't see this passage speaking of Jerusalem, but of God extending His plans to all nations. Notice the emphasis on foreign peoples in some of the verses here;
verses 2 and 3, "a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built. Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee."
verse 5, "Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; [even] the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low".
verse 6, "And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined."
verse 7,"And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations."
Following into chapter 26, verses 1 and 2, we again see a picture of Christ (IMO), "In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will [God] appoint [for] walls and bulwarks. Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in."
It is my opinion that this city is the New Jerusalem, Jesus, the habitation of the people of God (and by extension, the church). Even the "in [on] this mountain" refers to Christ.
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel." Hebrews 12:22-24.
I got a little carried away, but there's my thoughts.
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Post by Once4all on Jun 29, 2010 14:38:12 GMT -5
Ted,
I meant Isaiah 25:9, not one of my verses.
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Post by Once4all on Jun 29, 2010 14:46:28 GMT -5
My personal view of this (all basically just about everything in Isaiah) is that it speaks of the work that Christ would do. ... verse 7," And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations." ... I would agree. This verse caught my attention because of the similar discussion I read in 2 Corinthians 3 this morning. But I'm not sure "all nations" refers to all the peoples of the world because in 2 Corinthians the veil over them is in the context of the Law of Moses, which was given only to the children of Israel. |
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Post by Once4all on Jun 30, 2010 9:55:54 GMT -5
My personal view of this (all basically just about everything in Isaiah) is that it speaks of the work that Christ would do. ... verse 7," And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations." ... I would agree. This verse caught my attention because of the similar discussion I read in 2 Corinthians 3 this morning. But I'm not sure "all nations" refers to all the peoples of the world because in 2 Corinthians the veil over them is in the context of the Law of Moses, which was given only to the children of Israel. Just some more verses that caught my eye this morning: The OP verse: (Isaiah 25:9 NASB) And it will be said in that day, "Behold, this is our God for whom we have waited that He might save us. This is the LORD for whom we have waited; Let us rejoice and be glad in His salvation." (Isaiah 52:10 NASB) The LORD has bared His holy arm In the sight of all the nations, That all the ends of the earth may see The salvation of our God. (Revelation 1:7 NASB) BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. |
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Post by Morris on Jun 30, 2010 14:22:51 GMT -5
I would agree. This verse caught my attention because of the similar discussion I read in 2 Corinthians 3 this morning. But I'm not sure "all nations" refers to all the peoples of the world because in 2 Corinthians the veil over them is in the context of the Law of Moses, which was given only to the children of Israel. It uses a similar imagery but I wouldn't take that as placing a restriction on Isaiah's imagery. Isaiah 25:7 reads " And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations." " nations" here is Strong's #1471 which says, "apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence, a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts". Great find with those other verses by the way. |
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Post by mellontes on Jun 30, 2010 22:18:06 GMT -5
So, have we come to a concensus as to whether Isaiah 25:9 is first coming or second coming or both? I'm not sure if you folks specifically stated which.
And, I am going to have to go with Bev on that all people, all nation bit...because of the vail context and the fact that Christ's ministry was to the household of Israel, to the Jew first.
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Post by Morris on Jul 1, 2010 11:42:42 GMT -5
And, I am going to have to go with Bev on that all people, all nation bit...because of the vail context and the fact that Christ's ministry was to the household of Israel, to the Jew first. Even though the word explicitly means non-Jew?! You're certainly free to believe what you wish but this has the appearance of holding to a doctrinal notion over what scripture really says. IMHO of course. |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 23, 2010 9:18:15 GMT -5
What do the people here think the context of Isaiah 25:9 is about? Isaiah 25:9 - And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation]. I am especially interested in: 1. What day the " in that day" represents. 2. What you think the phrase " he will save us" means. 3. What you think the phrase " in his salvation" means. I believe that what Isaiah said here is foundational to New Testament truths... I kinda' like to look at passages before and after the passage in question to get a feel for the context. (Chapter and verse are conventions added for easier reference but are not part of the original Hebrew bible.) So, with that in mind, I see Isaiah 25 as a clear extension of chapter 24: Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. Isaiah 24:23 (KJV) Compare that to this from Revelation: And the city [New Jerusalem] had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Revelation 21:23 (KJV) Then look at what Isaiah writes in verse 8: He hath swallowed up death in victory, And wiped hath the Lord Jehovah, The tear from off all faces, And the reproach of His people He turneth aside from off all the earth, For Jehovah hath spoken. Isaiah 25:8 (YLT) Parallel passage here: 3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them--their God, 4 and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.' Revelation 21:3-4 (YLT) Based on these passages, I definitely believe Isaiah was writing of things that would only find fulfillment in the coming of Christ in glory, when death is no more. And that - I believe - has not happened yet. Hope this helps. |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 23, 2010 10:48:26 GMT -5
Based on these passages, I definitely believe Isaiah was writing of things that would only find fulfillment in the coming of Christ in glory, when death is no more. And that - I believe - has not happened yet. Hope this helps. May I direct you to www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3482&sid=65fed5e3f3d76762bc328811fd82c60fI see that you consider the "Death" that is swallowed up in victory as physical death. That is incorrect, IMO. It is THE DEATH (the sin death, separation from God) that is swallowed up in victory. It occurs at salvation, because it is Christ who has redeemed us from this curse. It is when we belong to the church, the body of Christ. The first century believers had this promise by faith. They were given the earnest of inheritance. At Christ's parousia (which would occur in their generation), these promises would be fully realized. Christians in the 21st century (or anytime after the parousia) need not wait for the parousia which accomplished all these things. We are not living in the present evil age of the old covenant; we are living in the Messianic age of the new covenant. Luke 21:28 - And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. When you determine who Jesus was speaking to, you will realize that this happened a long time ago. P.S. - I would like to revise my thoughts on the "all nations" aspect. While I believe Isaiah's "speech" was given primarily to the Jews (the original audience) and would be applicable to the Jews first, there can be no doubt that "the death" would be swallowed up in victory for Gentiles as well, like me for instance. |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 23, 2010 17:12:20 GMT -5
"I see that you consider the "Death" that is swallowed up in victory as physical death. That is incorrect, IMO. It is THE DEATH (the sin death, separation from God) that is swallowed up in victory. It occurs at salvation, because it is Christ who has redeemed us from this curse." I agree with this, of course. However there are several aspects to this which have yet to be fulfilled. Christ's death didn't just swallow up "sin death", but also physical death. He paid for our sin at the cross, but sealed the promise of eternal life in incorruptible bodies with Him through the resurrection. While we have been quickened in the spirit through His death, we still await the transformation of our bodies from that which is corruptible to that which is incorruptible. That will occur at the resurrection of us all, which - I believe - has not happened yet. Furthermore, the reproach of His people - the Jews - can hardly be said to have been turned aside. They live under the threat of imminent destruction every day from people that want them wiped off the face of the earth. Only when Christ reigns from Jerusalem in glory will this be fulfilled. 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works. Titus 2:13-14 (ASV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:3-5 (ASV) Peter and Paul were still looking ahead to something that had not happened yet. We still await it today. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 23, 2010 17:35:36 GMT -5
Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Are you really sticking to it? |
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Post by Allyn on Dec 23, 2010 17:49:03 GMT -5
"I see that you consider the "Death" that is swallowed up in victory as physical death. That is incorrect, IMO. It is THE DEATH (the sin death, separation from God) that is swallowed up in victory. It occurs at salvation, because it is Christ who has redeemed us from this curse." I agree with this, of course. However there are several aspects to this which have yet to be fulfilled. Christ's death didn't just swallow up "sin death", but also physical death. He paid for our sin at the cross, but sealed the promise of eternal life in incorruptible bodies with Him through the resurrection. While we have been quickened in the spirit through His death, we still await the transformation of our bodies from that which is corruptible to that which is incorruptible. That will occur at the resurrection of us all, which - I believe - has not happened yet. Furthermore, the reproach of His people - the Jews - can hardly be said to have been turned aside. They live under the threat of imminent destruction every day from people that want them wiped off the face of the earth. Only when Christ reigns from Jerusalem in glory will this be fulfilled. 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works. Titus 2:13-14 (ASV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:3-5 (ASV) Peter and Paul were still looking ahead to something that had not happened yet. We still await it today. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Death being swallowed up must happen at our conversion otherwise that life which was given to all believers through our being in Christ would have not taken place - but the the Bible teaches it has happened. Thake John 11:25 and 26 for example where Jesus said that we who live will never die. Our bodies of flesh do certainly die and decay and disappear but the you who is the inner man of that body will never die. Daniel the prophet also showed us what the angel told him regarding Daniel's people in that only they would be recipients of the resurrection from the dead. They of the Old Covenant were held in Hades until the day of the Lord. This happened at the end of the age when the Temple was destroyed and when Jesus came with Hid kingdom. I firmly believe that I right now have eternal life. Death has power only over my flesh - as it should be for it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment. But that judgment for the believer is "well done thou good and faithful servant". I am at this moment in a body of flesh but when this flesh and blood succumbs to death by whatever means the inner me will obtain that new body God has ready for me in heaven (2 Cor. 5:1-4) |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 23, 2010 21:03:04 GMT -5
... I firmly believe that I right now have eternal life. Death has power only over my flesh - as it should be for it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment. But that judgment for the believer is "well done thou good and faithful servant".... Only if the believer has done well. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 25, 2010 10:25:40 GMT -5
... I firmly believe that I right now have eternal life. Death has power only over my flesh - as it should be for it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment. But that judgment for the believer is "well done thou good and faithful servant".... Only if the believer has done well. Christ paid the FULL penalty. He did well in our place. Roo |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 25, 2010 16:19:14 GMT -5
"I firmly believe that I right now have eternal life. Death has power only over my flesh..." I agree. However, there is coming a time that death will no longer have power over the flesh. That's the point Paul was making to Titus as well as to the Corinthians. 20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (ASV) He also wrote to the Romans: 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:18-23 (ASV)
It's this "redemption of our body" (the transformation of the corruptible into the incorruptible) for which we all eagerly await. Our present, corruptible state tells us this has not happened yet. That, I believe, is yet to come. Merry Christmas to all!  |
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Post by Allyn on Dec 25, 2010 17:29:10 GMT -5
"I firmly believe that I right now have eternal life. Death has power only over my flesh..." I agree. However, there is coming a time that death will no longer have power over the flesh. That's the point Paul was making to Titus as well as to the Corinthians. 20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (ASV) He also wrote to the Romans: 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:18-23 (ASV)
It's this "redemption of our body" (the transformation of the corruptible into the incorruptible) for which we all eagerly await. Our present, corruptible state tells us this has not happened yet. That, I believe, is yet to come. Merry Christmas to all! The redemption of our bodies is clearly pointing to the time we become God's in Christ as shown from Romans 5-8 and chapters 9-11. |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 25, 2010 23:56:25 GMT -5
Only if the believer has done well. Christ paid the FULL penalty. He did well in our place. Roo "Well done, good and faithful servant" so often used, is quoted from the parable of the talents in Matthew 25 (and Luke 19). Not all the slaves received praise and reward from their master, but only the ones who produced a "profit." To the one who did not, his reward was to be thrown into the outer darkness after what he had been given was taken away from him. |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 26, 2010 14:35:12 GMT -5
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward.
As you correctly asserted, these "mortal coils" are still subject to physical death and the corruption that attends it. We have not yet received our glorified, incorruptible bodies. The resurrection of the living (those in Christ) and the dead (those without) has not happened yet. It was something for which Paul was still waiting. But this is pretty far off the topic of the OP. Maybe a new thread would be a better place to discuss this. |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 26, 2010 16:53:21 GMT -5
And if Strong's 3195 has anything at all to say, it is this (using the YLT to reflect the "mello": Romans 8:18 - For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us; |
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Post by didymus on Dec 26, 2010 23:35:36 GMT -5
Stormcrow, I have a question for you. You have stated several time that we need to be transformed into the incoruptible. Is it not written that when we put on Christ we put on incoruption? Then there is this quote, "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward." When Paul said, "revealed to us-ward," what did he mean? Revealed to whom? Does that mean this glory that would be "revealed to us-ward," hasn't happened yet. Are Paul and to whomever he was writing, are still waiting for this glory to be revealed to them?  |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 27, 2010 4:59:27 GMT -5
Stormcrow, I have a question for you. You have stated several time that we need to be transformed into the incoruptible. Is it not written that when we put on Christ we put on incoruption? Then there is this quote, "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward." When Paul said, "revealed to us-ward," what did he mean? Revealed to whom? Does that mean this glory that would be "revealed to us-ward," hasn't happened yet. Are Paul and to whomever he was writing, are still waiting for this glory to be revealed to them? I think it;s very simple: we have eternal life from the moment we are saved, however this new life in Christ is not immediately nor fully manifest in the physical realm. Our current bodies grow old, grow tired, get sick and - sooner or later - die. This should be indisputable. My question, then, is why are so many disputing the resurrection of believers into glorified, incorruptible bodies? 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, " Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 " O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:42-58 (NASB77) Now I have a question for you: Are any of you suggesting the resurrection of believers has already occurred? If so, know that Paul has already addressed this issue, too: 16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:16-18 (NASB77) My point all along has been that there are some prophecies not yet fulfilled and among them are this idea of the resurrection wherein those who have physically died will receive new, physical, immortal bodies. My apologies if this strikes anyone as controversial. I assumed it has long been settled doctrine. |
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Post by didymus on Dec 27, 2010 16:20:03 GMT -5
I think it;s very simple: we have eternal life from the moment we are saved, however this new life in Christ is not immediately nor fully manifest in the physical realm. Our current bodies grow old, grow tired, get sick and - sooner or later - die. This should be indisputable. I am confused. Are you saying there is an interruption in eternal life? That makes no sense. If it is eternal life, it is ETERNAL!, with no interruption. When the physical body dies, we immediately are transformed into a spiritual body. Even futurists believe that. We don't have to wait for some far off distant resurrection which has already occurred. I don't think that is being disputed, unless I missed something as I was reading through this thread. What is in dispute is the timing. Of course I take a little different view than most preterists. Our resurrection is in Christ. Romans 6. 5-11 explains this. Christ defeated death, and if we are in Christ, death is defeated in us. In Christ, death has no dominion over us. As I explained above. I hope you recall, the original writings of the New Testament were written over 1900 years ago. That is where all the time statements come in . Again, I ask, is there an interruption of eternal life. We receive eternal life when we enter Christ. But, upon physical death, we have to wait for the resurrection for eternal life to resume. Obviously it is not settled doctrine. |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 27, 2010 21:54:11 GMT -5
The apostle Paul's heart desire and prayer to god was that Israel might be saved (Romans 10:1).
My heart's desire and prayer to God is that people would understand that the glorified body (to which we already belong) is Christ's body - the body of Christ - the new covenant church. This is that incorruptible body that is made immortal by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are members of THAT body.
The Adamic body (first Adam) is history. It gets replaced by the last Adam - Christ. These are covenant designations which few people even wish to entertain, yet it is all throughout 1 Corinthians 15...Do we understand why the tree of life is part of the end? Do we understand how it is that we go back to the Garden state. The tree of life is Jesus.
2 Timothy 1:10 - But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Are we able to see the PAST TENSE usage in the above verse? Two things have happened to those in Christ:
1. Death has been abolished. Obviously it is not physical death but THE DEATH, the Garden curse, separation from God.
2. Life and immortality has been brought to life (manifested).
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 28, 2010 8:01:02 GMT -5
1. Death has been abolished. Obviously it is not physical death but THE DEATH, the Garden curse, separation from God. 2. Life and immortality has been brought to life (manifested). You don't see the contradiction is those two statements? If physical death - as you correctly assert - has not been abolished yet (which is indisputable), how is immortality manifest in the physical? |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 28, 2010 8:04:12 GMT -5
So has the resurrection happened in the last 1900 years? If so, when, where and under what conditions?
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