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Post by Allyn on Dec 28, 2010 8:07:55 GMT -5
1. Death has been abolished. Obviously it is not physical death but THE DEATH, the Garden curse, separation from God. 2. Life and immortality has been brought to life (manifested). You don't see the contradiction is those two statements? If physical death - as you correctly assert - has not been abolished yet (which is indisputable), how is immortality manifest in the physical? See Romans 8:11 - throught the same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead. This same Spirit gives us life in Christ which is imortality. The flesh receives it and and our spirit retains it. |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 28, 2010 9:33:17 GMT -5
But the flesh can receive nothing from God. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 1 Corinthians 15:50 (NASB77)
The following excerpt summarizes my position on the issue: |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 28, 2010 13:55:58 GMT -5
Death has been abolished. Paul was adamant about this. Physical death is not spoken of in the Scriptural record regarding redemption themes. Christ did not come to redeem us from physical death; He came to redeem us from THE DEATH, THE SIN, which is separation ofrom God. That is redemption, to be brought back.
Physical death is not a bad thing. If anything, it is the mechanism (for a lack of a better word) by which we gain total access to the hereafter.
Did Adam physically die on the day he ate the fruit? No. But it was clearly stated that he would die on that die.
But Adam DID DIE on that day. He died spiritually and became separated from God. No longer was he in covenant with Him. And to physically demonstrate this kind of death (common to the Hebrew mindset), they were kicked out of the Garden...
The curse has nothing to do with physical death. This is why Jesus could say to Martha that those who trusted in Him would NEVER die. All Christians die physically. If about physical redemption, Christ failed at CAlvary because all Christians die physically. We have got to let go of physical fulfillments and find it all fulfilled in and of Jesus Christ. He is the fulfillment.
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 28, 2010 14:47:20 GMT -5
His death and resurrection deliver us from both. Just as His body did not forever inhabit the grave, neither will ours. That is the point of the resurrection.
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 28, 2010 15:30:07 GMT -5
His death and resurrection deliver us from both. Just as His body did not forever inhabit the grave, neither will ours. That is the point of the resurrection. Crow, The physical body will be eaten by the bugs and therefore cannot be redeemed. You need a reality check.  Paul said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Roo |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 28, 2010 16:07:41 GMT -5
It is very difficult to convince anyone of the non-need for physical redemption/resurrection/restoration once those individuals have convinced themselves of the falsehood that physical death was part of the curse, therefore requiring redeeming.
What is sadly ignored is the fact that Jesus told Martha that one will NEVER die, not die later and then be redeemed/resurrected/restored.
I apologize for the big-fonted yelling. But I do not apologize of the fact that I am fully redeemed right now. Jesus Christ paid it all. I don't wait until I die to get more redeemed than I already am. It is not my physical body that gets redeemed it is the "ME" who gets redeemed. My human corpse will rot long after "ME" enters the realm of eternity. I have that promise now.
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Post by didymus on Dec 28, 2010 16:22:46 GMT -5
So has the resurrection happened in the last 1900 years? If so, when, where and under what conditions? The resurrection happens when we receive eternal life. If anyone is in Christ, they are a new creature, and are raised in newness of life. But you are indicating that there is an interruption to eternal. Show me that in Scripture. I sarted a thread, "Two Realms of Existence," in Gen. D./Any Topic D. That may or may not solve your problems Storm and WJ.  |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 29, 2010 9:45:01 GMT -5
His death and resurrection deliver us from both. Just as His body did not forever inhabit the grave, neither will ours. That is the point of the resurrection. Crow, The physical body will be eaten by the bugs and therefore cannot be redeemed. You need a reality check. Paul said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Roo Then was Christ's resurrection merely spiritual? |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 29, 2010 10:04:19 GMT -5
It is very difficult to convince anyone of the non-need for physical redemption/resurrection/restoration once those individuals have convinced themselves of the falsehood that physical death was part of the curse, therefore requiring redeeming. What is sadly ignored is the fact that Jesus told Martha that one will NEVER die, not die later and then be redeemed/resurrected/restored. I apologize for the big-fonted yelling. But I do not apologize of the fact that I am fully redeemed right now. Jesus Christ paid it all. I don't wait until I die to get more redeemed than I already am. It is not my physical body that gets redeemed it is the "ME" who gets redeemed. My human corpse will rot long after "ME" enters the realm of eternity. I have that promise now. Christ was sent to redeem the entirety of God's creation - spiritual AND physical - which was brought under the curse of Adam. It was all brought under Adam's curse. We are all redeemed spiritually, yet we await the full redemption of pur physical bodies: the corruptible putting on the incorruptible. If there is no physical resurrection, then Christ is still in the grave, at which point not one of us is redeemed. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
(1 Corinthians 15:12-14) As to didymus' assertion that the resurrection represents an "interruption" in redemption, of course it does! Because even though we are fully redeemed from sin, we are not fully redeemed from the curse of death! 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 1 Corinthians 15:20-26 (NASB77) As of Paul's writing, physical death had not yet been abolished. It still has not. But I'm beginning to wonder why you are all reacting so defensively to this? What is it about the idea of the physical resurrection that threatens you all? |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 29, 2010 10:20:52 GMT -5
You missed part of what Jesus said to her:
Jesus said to her, " I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, John 11:25 (NASB77)
If you physically die in Christ, you will be resurrected, just as Lazarus was, except your resurrection will be to eternal life, as seen next:
"...and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:26 (NASB77)
Young's Literal Translation:
23 Jesus saith to her, `Thy brother shall rise again.' 24 Martha saith to him, `I have known that he will rise again, in the rising again in the last day;' 25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live; 26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die--to the age; John 11:23-26 (YLT)
Jesus is the resurrection and in Him those who die will be raised as He was, with physical bodies that both perfectly reflect God's glory and are incorruptible.
Jesus didn't chide Martha for believing Lazarus would rise "in the last day." That is as true now as it was then. Christ's point was to let Martha know why her brother would rise and to establish - beyond any certainty - who He was. She got it.
For the believer who dies in Christ there is no separation from God, only separation from our bodies. The resurrection resolves this, just as it did with Christ's bodily, physical resurrection.
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Post by Allyn on Dec 29, 2010 10:38:26 GMT -5
..."Jesus told Martha that one will NEVER die, not die later and then be redeemed/resurrected/restored." Jesus said to her, " I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, John 11:25 (NASB77) Hi Stormcrow, 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” These 2 verses are depicting the resurrection of those like Daniel 12 and the life in Christ of those like Martha. In otherwords all people who were dead under the Old Covenant were to be raised in the general resurrection but people who are like Martha who were of the Gospel of Christ would never even die so therefore needing no resurrection. It is not the body that is raised but the spirit. Thus Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. The Resurrection of those like Daniel and the Life of those like Martha. Our bodies die and return to the dust from where it came but the "You" inside that body will never die if you are in Christ Jesus. I sent you a Private Message yesterday. Hope you saw it. |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 29, 2010 10:39:05 GMT -5
..."Jesus told Martha that one will NEVER die, not die later and then be redeemed/resurrected/restored." Jesus said to her, " I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, John 11:25 (NASB77) John 11:25 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: How does one believe in Jesus though he were dead? I hardly think you are suggesting that one can believe in Jesus (gaining eternal life) after physical death... |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 29, 2010 11:23:12 GMT -5
..."Jesus told Martha that one will NEVER die, not die later and then be redeemed/resurrected/restored." Jesus said to her, " I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, John 11:25 (NASB77) John 11:25 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: How does one believe in Jesus though he were dead? I hardly think you are suggesting that one can believe in Jesus (gaining eternal life) after physical death... The KJV you quoted is not as clear as is the NASB I cited. No one is suggesting that you come to saving faith in Christ after you die. What Christ is saying - I believe - is that even if you die believing in Him, you will be raised from the dead, just as He was, and if you are alive at the resurrection you will never see death. Remember: He is making these comments in context of the resurrection. He does not say your physical body will not die. He is saying if you believe in Him, whether you die or live, you will never be separated from God. Paul makes exactly the same point: 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39 (NASB77) Even death cannot separate us from God's love. This does not, however, nullify the idea of a bodily resurrection, something that Paul explains in great detail in I Corinthians 15. While I have been careful to qualify my statements regarding the nature of this resurrected body (it's incorruptible, will never get sick, never die, is a perfect reflection of God's glory, etc.) I think we're tripping over the terms "spiritual" and "physical." I think the best way to resolve this is to understand that Christ's resurrected physical body was also a "spiritual" body. He could eat, though He wouldn't have needed to, He could appear to others and be touched by them. He could perfectly reflect the glory of God (the "transfiguration" was a glimpse of His glorified body), and could move in real space and time or beyond it. His resurrected body was - therefore - both: it could move through both heaven and earth. That is the point Paul is making (apparently better than I did) in I Corinthians 15: 35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, " Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 "
O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:35-57 (NASB77) As to the assertion that this resurrection is only for Old Covenant believers, I believe Paul addresses that in the passage above. This resurrection is for all believers. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 29, 2010 11:29:16 GMT -5
Crow, The physical body will be eaten by the bugs and therefore cannot be redeemed. You need a reality check. Paul said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Roo Then was Christ's resurrection merely spiritual? Christ's physical body was not eaten by the bugs. He did not see decay. But all others see decay and their physical bodies are annihilated. Paul said that our immortal body is from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). blessings, Roo |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 29, 2010 11:35:13 GMT -5
"Paul said that our immortal body is from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5)."
He also said our bodies would be raised "imperishable." So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Apparently, our bodies will be raised. That is the point of the resurrection. One more thing: the state of our corpse does not impede the manifestation of God's power. If anything, the "deader" and more "annihilated" our bodies are, the more God's power and glory are magnified: 39 Jesus said, "Remove the stone." Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, "Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days." 40 Jesus •said to her, " Did I not say to you, if you believe, you will see the glory of God?"
41 And so they removed the stone. And Jesus raised His eyes, and said, " Father, I thank Thee that Thou heardest Me. 42 "And I knew that Thou hearest Me always; but because of the people standing around I said it, that they may believe that Thou didst send Me."
43 And when He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth." 44 He who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings; and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go." John 11:39-44 (NASB77) A corpse's state of decay is no problem for the power of God to raise it incorruptible. Happy New Year!  |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 29, 2010 11:49:13 GMT -5
"Paul said that our immortal body is from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5)."
He also said our bodies would be raised "imperishable." So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Apparently, our bodies will be raised. That is the point of the resurrection. Paul did not use the word "somatikos" which refers to the physical body. hH used the word "soma" which refers to the person. Somatikos: The physical body, Strong's# 4984 Soma: The body as a sound whole, [that is, the whole man or person], Strong's# 4983 Polycarp as burned at the stake. Many christains in the first century were burned at the stake. Their physical bodies are gone. The resurrection was about their persons (soma) being raised from sheol (or hades). When you put off your physical body you will immediately be clothed with your heavenly body. Your physical body will be eaten by the bugs which will be eaten by birds which will be eaten by animals which will be eaten by humans. Roo |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 29, 2010 12:31:46 GMT -5
"Soma: The body as a sound whole, [that is, the whole man or person], Strong's# 4983" Yes, the "whole man" shall be raised. Our minds and spirit reunited with our resurrection bodies. "Soma" doesn't negate the resurrection, it affirms it. "The resurrection was about their persons (soma) being raised from sheol (or hades)." Well if that's true, then you have a really big problem with your view. Depending on the way Hades is interpreted, it can either mean "grave" or "hell." If it means "grave", then what rises from the grave except that which is buried there in the first place? If "grave" then that view argues for a bodily resurrection. But if it means "hell", then Paul is writing to Christians and telling them that their souls will languish in hell until the resurrection, which argues against the position, of everyone here, that they have been redeemed from it. Paul was clear: nothing could separate us from God's love, not even death. So either "hades" means that the "soma" (the whole person") would rise, just as Jesus did, from the "grave", or it means that everyone who dies "in Christ" will be separated from God until the resurrection. Neither of us believes the latter. The lack of a physical body for those who have long since fallen asleep in the Lord would seem to present little problem for the God who created us all from dust in the first place. Not only can He recreate them, but can transform them, as well. I hope I'm alive when it happens: t will be glorious to watch! |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 29, 2010 13:05:53 GMT -5
Stormcrow wrote:
All have abandoned the idea that hades means "hell." Hades was the grave of the soul. Our Westernized idea that it was the grave of the physical body is foreign to scripture. Hades was the grave of the soul.
Paul said that when our earthly bodies dissolve God will give us a body from heaven "not made with hands."
Note three things:
1. Our earthly bodies will dissolve and God will give us a body from heaven.
2. The body from heaven is "not made with hands." The expression "not made with hands" means "not of this creation."
So the body from heaven is "not of THIS creation." Paul said that "flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God."
3. Paul said that we desire to put off this earthly body and to put on our body from heaven.
Roo
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 29, 2010 14:01:00 GMT -5
Stormcrow wrote: All have abandoned the idea that hades means "hell." Hades was the grave of the soul. Our Westernized idea that it was the grave of the physical body is foreign to scripture. Hades was the grave of the soul. Paul said that when our earthly bodies dissolve God will give us a body from heaven "not made with hands." Note three things: 1. Our earthly bodies will dissolve and God will give us a body from heaven. 2. The body from heaven is "not made with hands." The expression "not made with hands" means "not of this creation." So the body from heaven is "not of THIS creation. Paul said that "flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God." 3. Paul said that we desire to put off this earthly body and to put on our body from heaven. Roo Our bodies at the resurrection will be transformed by God Himself into the image of His Son. In that way, our resurrected bodies will be heavenly in that they will be able to enter heaven. But they will also be physically recognizable to others who look at us, just as Christ was to the disciples after He rose. So then if this means "grave of the soul", Paul, who was writing to Christians, was telling them they who were "asleep in Christ" were in the "grave of the soul" until the resurrection. Grave, grave of the soul, hell, all mean the same thing: separation from God. That's not the doctrine Paul was teaching regarding the resurrection. One more thing: The passage from Hebrews 9 refers to the heavenly tabernacle, not Christ's body. Read Hebrews 9:11 in context: 1 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
3 And behind the second veil, there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant. 5 And above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
6 Now when these things have been thus prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle, performing the divine worship, 7 but into the second only the high priest enters, once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. Hebrews 9:1-7 (NASB77)
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:11-12 (NASB77)
That "more perfect tabernacle" is the one that exists in heaven: 5 After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened, 6 and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their breasts with golden girdles. Revelation 15:5-6 (NASB77)
The heavenly tabernacle into which Christ entered with His own blood to sprinkle on the Mercy Seat is the tabernacle which is not "of this creation." It is not Christ's body. If Hebrews 9:11 refers to Christ's body, then Christ is a created being, which is what Mormon's JW's and Muslims believe. Christ is not the created Son of God, He is the "begotten" Son of God. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 29, 2010 14:25:57 GMT -5
Crow wrote:
Paul said that our earthly bodies will DISSOLVE implying that our bodies from heaven are REPLACEMENT bodies.
The word "dissolved" implies "annihilated." The body from heaven is therefore a REPLACEMENT body. Paul said that it is "not made with hands", that is, it is "not of this creation." He said that "flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God."
Correct. The heavenly tabernacle is "not made with hands", that is, it is "not of this creation." So when Paul said that the body from heaven is "not made with hands" he meant that it is "not of this creation." Paul said that "flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God."
blessings brother!
Roo
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Post by Allyn on Dec 29, 2010 14:33:41 GMT -5
Except that Jesus was not recognized until they were made to recognize Him. In fact Jesus was invisible after His resurrection until God made Him visible.
2 Cor. 5:1-4 declares that our replacement body is already in heaven. In this way we (the "we" refers to the inner man) will not be found naked. One tent is returned to the dust and another tent takes its place.
It the same as what is being taught by Paul in 1 Cor. 15 when he uses the seed analogy. What goes in the ground is not what comes out. The seed dies and the life inside the seed , the "we", lives. If you have ever planted a watermellon seed you can see this transformation very early on in the germination. The seedling emerges from the soil with the shell of the seed still attached but definitely dead. It then soon drops off and returns to the soil and decays. This is preterism's strong argument concerning a resurrection past because it does not depend on a visible out of the grave resurrection. We believe that this is the teaching of Paul, who Peter says taught only what the prophets taught.
Daniel was one of those prophets and Daniels was told by the angel that only Daniel's people would be in the resurrection. Those were the ones in which some were raised to life eternal and some to condemnation. Jesus also taught this same principal in a story of the rich man and Lazuras. Lazuras was found to be with Abrham and was resting comfortably waiting for the resurrection. The rich man was in torment and wanting someone to be sent to his brothers to warn them. Both men were in hades. Hades is now empty. No more will one need to wait in sleep for the resurrection. Instead when we die we go straight to our reward in heaven. Our judgment came when we accepted Christ (No condemnation) but for others it is immediate destruction for they have already received their reward on earth in immoral living and selfishness.
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Post by mellontes on Dec 29, 2010 22:40:27 GMT -5
Stormcrow,
As much as all lables are generally undesired, would you say your theology matches closest to:
1. Dispensationalism
2. Amillennialism
3. Postmillennialism
Thanks
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Post by Once4all on Dec 30, 2010 18:17:16 GMT -5
... One more thing: The passage from Hebrews 9 refers to the heavenly tabernacle, not Christ's body. Read Hebrews 9:11 in context: 1 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
3 And behind the second veil, there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant. 5 And above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
6 Now when these things have been thus prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle, performing the divine worship, 7 but into the second only the high priest enters, once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. Hebrews 9:1-7 (NASB77)
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:11-12 (NASB77)
That "more perfect tabernacle" is the one that exists in heaven: 5 After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened, 6 and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their breasts with golden girdles. Revelation 15:5-6 (NASB77)
The heavenly tabernacle into which Christ entered with His own blood to sprinkle on the Mercy Seat is the tabernacle which is not "of this creation." It is not Christ's body. I think this illustration supports the preterist view. As the heavenly tabernacle is NOT a remodeled earthly tabernacle, our heavenly bodies will not be remodeled earthly bodies. 2 Corinthians 5:1 NASB (1) For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Hebrews 9:1 NASB (1) Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. Hebrews 9:11 NASB (11) But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; |
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Post by stormcrow on Dec 30, 2010 21:56:51 GMT -5
As much as all lables are generally undesired, would you say your theology matches closest to:
1. Dispensationalism
2. Amillennialism
3. Postmillennialism Honestly, I have no idea what any of those mean. I don't mean the following as a slam against anyone, but I try to read the Word with as little "doctrinal baggage" as I can. When I do read it, I look for context (both textual and cultural), word-meanings, and historical fulfillment first. And I always approach the language as to be taken literally unless the context clearly indicates that it is meant to be taken as hyperbole, allegory, poetry, or parable. I guess this is owing to my "Heinz 57" upbringing in the church: baptized and raised early on as Roman Catholic, then converting via baptism to American (formerly "Northern") Baptist at age 12, going "full-gospel" (Pentecostal) by age 16, then attending Baptist, Methodist, non-Denominational and Assembly of God churches since graduating from a Baptist liberal arts college. (I'm 53). I've been exposed to so much doctrine, quite frankly I'm tired of it. I simply want the truth, and since I haven't really found any one church that has it all, I spend a lot of time in my own study. I used to teach Sunday School and lead Bible studies in people's homes. I haven't done either since being the subject of some pretty vicious gossip back in the 80s. (I've always wondered how someone cowardly enough to spread lies behind someone's back would ever have the courage to witness the love of Christ to someone's face.) But I digress. Doctrinal labels mean nothing more to me than denominational labels do. I'm just trying to finish the race as best I can.  |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 30, 2010 22:43:35 GMT -5
As much as all lables are generally undesired, would you say your theology matches closest to:
1. Dispensationalism
2. Amillennialism
3. Postmillennialism Honestly, I have no idea what any of those mean. I don't mean the following as a slam against anyone, but I try to read the Word with as little "doctrinal baggage" as I can. When I do read it, I look for context (both textual and cultural), word-meanings, and historical fulfillment first. And I always approach the language as to be taken literally unless the context clearly indicates that it is meant to be taken as hyperbole, allegory, poetry, or parable. I guess this is owing to my "Heinz 57" upbringing in the church: baptized and raised early on as Roman Catholic, then converting via baptism to American (formerly "Northern") Baptist at age 12, going "full-gospel" (Pentecostal) by age 16, then attending Baptist, Methodist, non-Denominational and Assembly of God churches since graduating from a Baptist liberal arts college. (I'm 53). I've been exposed to so much doctrine, quite frankly I'm tired of it. I simply want the truth, and since I haven't really found any one church that has it all, I spend a lot of time in my own study. I used to teach Sunday School and lead Bible studies in people's homes. I haven't done either since being the subject of some pretty vicious gossip back in the 80s. (I've always wondered how someone cowardly enough to spread lies behind someone's back would ever have the courage to witness the love of Christ to someone's face.) But I digress. Doctrinal labels mean nothing more to me than denominational labels do. I'm just trying to finish the race as best I can. Thanks for answering and being so honest. Judging by your background and teaching you would be strong dispensationalist. And since my memory is so bad, I can't remember why I asked. I had a point, but that was yesterday... :-( Maybe it will come to me tomorrow...And if it does, I hope I can remember why it did. Blessings. |
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