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Post by didymus on Apr 9, 2010 12:46:36 GMT -5
Question: Which denomination was established by God?  |
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Post by Morris on Apr 9, 2010 15:32:48 GMT -5
I tried to come up with a smart answer... but I guess I'm just not that smart. ;D
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Post by mellontes on Apr 9, 2010 16:33:38 GMT -5
I tried to come up with a smart answer... but I guess I'm just not that smart. ;D Don't worry about being smart...the emoticon said it all. |
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Post by didymus on Apr 19, 2010 12:18:33 GMT -5
What, you guys can't answer. Is the question too tough for you?  |
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Post by Morris on Apr 19, 2010 14:11:42 GMT -5
It's rather difficult to answer when the denomination means nothing to me.
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Post by didymus on Apr 19, 2010 20:45:47 GMT -5
Morris, What do you mean by: "the denomination means nothing to me"? |
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Post by Morris on Apr 20, 2010 10:13:37 GMT -5
Morris, What do you mean by: "the denomination means nothing to me"? I don't really care what the label is. |
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Post by didymus on Apr 20, 2010 12:11:52 GMT -5
Does that mean you will attend a church wearing a label? |
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Post by Morris on Apr 20, 2010 12:15:37 GMT -5
Does that mean you will attend a church wearing a label? I've never seen a church without one. |
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Post by didymus on Apr 20, 2010 20:37:43 GMT -5
I have, Morris. But then I am older than you.  |
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Post by Morris on Apr 21, 2010 11:11:35 GMT -5
I have, Morris. But then I am older than you. Oh, they had a label, even if you don't think it was a label. |
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Post by didymus on Apr 22, 2010 13:20:18 GMT -5
So, these churches with labels - which one did God establish?
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Post by Morris on Apr 23, 2010 13:58:48 GMT -5
Hmm... (Here's my ' smart' answer finally!) I actually can't find anywhere that says God established any church. He established the earth and all creation, as in Isaiah 26:12 & 1 Chronicles 16:30. He establishes authority, as in Romans 13:1, Job 25:2 & 2 Samuel 5:12. He establishes covenant, as in Genesis 6:18, Galatians 3:17 & Hebrews 10:9. He establishes His people, as in Romans 16:25 & Deuteronomy 28:9. He establishes peace, as in Isaiah 26:12 & Ezekiel 37:26 He establishes decrees, laws and regulations, as in Leviticus 26:46. He establishes the King and His Kingdom, as in 2 Samuel 7:11-16 ___________ I found some denominations (churches with 'labels') though  ; The church at Jerusalem (Acts 11:22) The church at Antioch (Acts 13:1) The church of God (Acts 20:28) The church in Cenchrea (Romans 16:1) The churches of the Gentiles (Romans 16:4) The church that meets at their house (Romans 16:5)  The churches of Christ (Romans 16:16) The churches of God (1 Corinthians 11:16) The Galatian churches (1 Corinthians 16:1) The Macedonian churches (2 Corinthians 8:1) The churches of Judea (Galatians 1:22) The church of the Laodiceans (Colossians 4:16) The church of the Thessalonians (1 Thessalonians 1:1) The church of the firstborn (Hebrews 12:23) |
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Post by didymus on Apr 23, 2010 20:22:47 GMT -5
So, do you agree with Watchman Nee who once said, "The only division in the church is geographical"?
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Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 23, 2010 22:40:22 GMT -5
1 Tim 3:15 - But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Now who can lay claim to that exclusively? Certainly there is no one denomination that qualifies since the entity of the Church itself is a spiritual one. THE CHURCH is that which belongs to Christ, and its many members are not confined to a building - since there is no physical body that represents Him except our own!
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Post by Morris on Apr 23, 2010 22:53:55 GMT -5
If by "church" you mean those "called out" by God "to belong to Jesus Christ" (Romans 1:6), as "the body of Christ" where "each one of you is a part of it" (1 Corinthians 12:27) and thereby "bring you to God" (1 Peter 3:18); If that is what is meant by 'church', then I whole-heartedly agree.
Thus, "The only division in the church [those called out, Christ's body, as defined in scripture] is geographical"? would be true.
But if referring to bricks and mortar, and organizational structures, than no, it isn't.
That would be my view.
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Post by Once4all on Apr 24, 2010 2:10:09 GMT -5
If by "church" you mean those "called out" by God " to belong to Jesus Christ" (Romans 1:6), as " the body of Christ" where " each one of you is a part of it" (1 Corinthians 12:27) and thereby " bring you to God" (1 Peter 3:18); If that is what is meant by 'church', then I whole-heartedly agree. Thus, "The only division in the church [those called out, Christ's body, as defined in scripture] is geographical"? would be true. But if referring to bricks and mortar, and organizational structures, than no, it isn't. That would be my view. That's one argument for why Christians shouldn't participate in wars. There are Christians in every nation and you don't know if you are fighting against a brother in Christ on the battlefield. Also, by doing so you are placing an earthly kingdom above the kingdom of God. The argument I usually hear against this is that "our wars are not usually against Christian nations." But there are Christians even in Muslim nations, just as there are American soldiers who are Muslims. |
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Post by didymus on Apr 24, 2010 8:26:44 GMT -5
If by "church" you mean those "called out" by God " to belong to Jesus Christ" (Romans 1:6), as " the body of Christ" where " each one of you is a part of it" (1 Corinthians 12:27) and thereby " bring you to God" (1 Peter 3:18); If that is what is meant by 'church', then I whole-heartedly agree. Thus, "The only division in the church [those called out, Christ's body, as defined in scripture] is geographical"? would be true. But if referring to bricks and mortar, and organizational structures, than no, it isn't. That would be my view. Then would you agree that God had not established the denominational religion we see in this country? Since I am a member of the body of Christ, and since I physically live in Lebanon, Pennsylvania, I am a member of the "church at Lebanon, Pennsylvania. Would that be correct? |
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Post by Morris on Apr 25, 2010 14:56:43 GMT -5
That's one argument for why Christians shouldn't participate in wars. There are Christians in every nation and you don't know if you are fighting against a brother in Christ on the battlefield. Also, by doing so you are placing an earthly kingdom above the kingdom of God. The argument I usually hear against this is that "our wars are not usually against Christian nations." But there are Christians even in Muslim nations, just as there are American soldiers who are Muslims. True; that is an argument based on reason. However, scripture has given us explicit instructions; Romans 13:1, " Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.", Titus 3:1,2, " Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men." and, 1 Peter 2:13-15, " Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men." Peace by choice - Obedience by instruction. That is what I see. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 25, 2010 15:19:18 GMT -5
Then would you agree that God had not established the denominational religion we see in this country? Since I am a member of the body of Christ, and since I physically live in Lebanon, Pennsylvania, I am a member of the "church at Lebanon, Pennsylvania. Would that be correct? As I see it, yes. However, denominations are not 'churches' in the truest biblical sense. "Churches" are bodies of believers established by Christ, not the buildings where they meet. Denominations are organizations established by men to describe their beliefs and practices. While I don't think their is anything inherently wrong with the concept itself, I don't think it is inherently profitable to the kingdom either. |
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Post by didymus on Apr 25, 2010 19:44:09 GMT -5
As I see it, yes. However, denominations are not 'churches' in the truest biblical sense. "Churches" are bodies of believers established by Christ, not the buildings where they meet. Denominations are organizations established by men to describe their beliefs and practices. While I don't think their is anything inherently wrong with the concept itself, I don't think it is inherently profitable to the kingdom either. So then, you understand that denominations are man-made and are the result of centuries of division? |
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Post by Morris on Apr 25, 2010 22:27:08 GMT -5
I understand that people have a desire to organize everything under the sun, and that people have a desire to surround themselves with the familiar. These are natural human tendencies. This very forum demonstrates this; we seek to organize our views surrounded with people of similar views.
Churches have denominations or descriptions because we have opinions. How can I fault a collection of people, which have an opinion regarding truth in scriptures, when I myself have an opinion regarding truth in scriptures? If they "cause division" because they have opinions that they hold to be true, then by that same reason, I cause division by holding to the opinions I have.
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Post by stephenpatrick on Apr 26, 2010 7:06:34 GMT -5
That's one argument for why Christians shouldn't participate in wars. There are Christians in every nation and you don't know if you are fighting against a brother in Christ on the battlefield. Also, by doing so you are placing an earthly kingdom above the kingdom of God. The argument I usually hear against this is that "our wars are not usually against Christian nations." But there are Christians even in Muslim nations, just as there are American soldiers who are Muslims. True; that is an argument based on reason. However, scripture has given us explicit instructions; Romans 13:1, " Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.", Titus 3:1,2, " Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men." and, 1 Peter 2:13-15, " Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men." Peace by choice - Obedience by instruction. That is what I see. Goodmorning. Hi Morris. I may be reading this wrong but you're not implying that Paul is saying the state can override the commands of Jesus to Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you? (Matthew 5:44) Thanks Steve |
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Post by Morris on Apr 26, 2010 9:12:51 GMT -5
Goodmorning. Hi Morris. I may be reading this wrong but you're not implying that Paul is saying the state can override the commands of Jesus to Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you? (Matthew 5:44) Thanks Steve This is where it hits me the hardest; there are never any exceptions given when we are told to submit to authority. Therefore, as I can see it, the only way to uphold both instructions is lay down your life on the battlefield for the benefit of your enemy and demonstrate to your authorities obedience and sacrificial love. That's extreme I realize but it appears to be the holding to the commands given us. |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 26, 2010 10:20:22 GMT -5
Goodmorning. Hi Morris. I may be reading this wrong but you're not implying that Paul is saying the state can override the commands of Jesus to Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you? (Matthew 5:44) Thanks Steve This is where it hits me the hardest; there are never any exceptions given when we are told to submit to authority. Therefore, as I can see it, the only way to uphold both instructions is lay down your life on the battlefield for the benefit of your enemy and demonstrate to your authorities obedience and sacrificial love. That's extreme I realize but it appears to be the holding to the commands given us. So, for example, the case of abortion. Because the state approves of it, then so should we? |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 26, 2010 10:21:44 GMT -5
What does it mean to "submit to authority" over us? Does it only imply obiedence to the law established by that authority or can it also mean to be ready to give up your freedom for a law you know to be wrong? Wouldn't the idea of being willing to go to jail rather than support a very bad law (abortion comes to mind) through taxation also be a form of submission? Most laws of our land do not even affect us one way or the other and there are some bad laws that may never be a worry for us, but there are some that require our involvement and may well be against the moral law of God. If we are individually convicted in our heatr to not participate in those bad laws then we must be equally convicted to submit to the consequences of our moral judgment.
Jesus was wrongly convicted and crucified but not a word against the law of Rome or of the priest was spoken by Him. He was willing to die for His purpose even though He was found guilty of something He was not guilty of. If I take my abortion example and apply it to myself where I refused to pay my taxes because even a small amount went to aid in the act of abortion then I better be prepared to stand before a judge who may convict me of avoiding to pay taxes. That to me is the flip side of submission.
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Post by Once4all on Apr 26, 2010 10:23:47 GMT -5
Churches have denominations or descriptions because we have opinions. How can I fault a collection of people, which have an opinion regarding truth in scriptures, when I myself have an opinion regarding truth in scriptures? If they "cause division" because they have opinions that they hold to be true, then by that same reason, I cause division by holding to the opinions I have.  If a man could see his own hypocrisy in this, the church would be less inclined to war within itself. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 26, 2010 12:19:08 GMT -5
Rendering unto Caesar the taxes he imposes - whatever they are used for, is not the same as submitting to a law that requires one to abort her children. Whether the taxes we pay support those who choose abortion, you certainly can't say that the law forces that choice on anyone. If it did then refusing to submit to that law would be the right choice. Taxes are used for many worldly things we might not agree with, but until they use that money to force abortion on women, I don't think there is a case to be made there for refusing to pay them.
The same goes for war. We do not get blood on our hands by opting to be conscientious objectors in time of war. And I have heard many testimonies from Christians who did enter the battlefield and ministered to the dying - both friend and foe. Should we leave them in their last moments to die in their sins without Christ?
Without war and natural calamity, how would evil be kept in balance? Death surely does still serve a Godly purpose in this world.
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Post by Allyn on Apr 26, 2010 12:51:34 GMT -5
Rendering unto Caesar the taxes he imposes - whatever they are used for, is not the same as submitting to a law that requires one to abort her children. Whether the taxes we pay support those who choose abortion, you certainly can't say that the law forces that choice on anyone. If it did then refusing to submit to that law would be the right choice. Taxes are used for many worldly things we might not agree with, but until they use that money to force abortion on women, I don't think there is a case to be made there for refusing to pay them. The same goes for war. We do not get blood on our hands by opting to be conscientious objectors in time of war. And I have heard many testimonies from Christians who did enter the battlefield and ministered to the dying - both friend and foe. Should we leave them in their last moments to die in their sins without Christ? Without war and natural calamity, how would evil be kept in balance? Death surely does still serve a Godly purpose in this world. It was just an example but yet in a very real way our taxes go towards the clinics that do the abortions. I hope my point was not lost in the example. My point is that if we choose to go against a law due to our convictions then we should also be prepared to be judged under that very same law we refuse to obey. Our submission to the law means we take the consequences. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 26, 2010 16:29:16 GMT -5
It was just an example but yet in a very real way our taxes go towards the clinics that do the abortions. I hope my point was not lost in the example. My point is that if we choose to go against a law due to our convictions then we should also be prepared to be judged under that very same law we refuse to obey. Our submission to the law means we take the consequences. Agreed. Submitting to authority doesn't mean that we can avail of wrong choices simply because those choices are legal. However, if we do something against the law established by authority, we are called to be accountable to authority and those consequences. As for taxes, Jesus gave no conditions for when to pay and when not to - it was not subjective. The Roman government used taxes for many unrighteous and ungodly purposes; building temples to their many gods, warring on neighbors, funding perverse social activities, etc. |
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