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Post by Allyn on Apr 26, 2010 19:48:46 GMT -5
It was just an example but yet in a very real way our taxes go towards the clinics that do the abortions. I hope my point was not lost in the example. My point is that if we choose to go against a law due to our convictions then we should also be prepared to be judged under that very same law we refuse to obey. Our submission to the law means we take the consequences. Agreed. Submitting to authority doesn't mean that we can avail of wrong choices simply because those choices are legal. However, if we do something against the law established by authority, we are called to be accountable to authority and those consequences. As for taxes, Jesus gave no conditions for when to pay and when not to - it was not subjective. The Roman government used taxes for many unrighteous and ungodly purposes; building temples to their many gods, warring on neighbors, funding perverse social activities, etc. Yes, with a monetary system we are at the mercy of those who dclare something as legal tender but even in that we have a choice - it all depends on how far we wish to go under such a system. I'll admit I am too weak to not be a part of it. God's grace wi need to be sufficient for me. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 26, 2010 21:46:12 GMT -5
...even in that we have a choice Personally, I don't believe Jesus gave us a choice. He instructed me to pay the taxes I owe, out of His money that He has made me steward over, to authority which He said He has established. Psalm 24:1 & Romans 13:1. That's the way I see it. |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 27, 2010 7:09:35 GMT -5
 ...even in that we have a choice Personally, I don't believe Jesus gave us a choice. He instructed me to pay the taxes I owe, out of His money that He has made me steward over, to authority which He said He has established. Psalm 24:1 & Romans 13:1. That's the way I see it. I see it this way. Pay to caesar that which is caesars (the minted coin used to do everyday business and to pay debts) Unto God that which is God's (righteousness with the consideration of loving your neighbor as yourself). If I choose the two systems then I must play within the rules of those systems which may mean that I must submit to the consequences of the law of the land when I choose that God's ways are higher and more important to observe over a bad law. This is a choice of of all men to be in the world but not a part of the world. Or be like a monk and not be involved in the consideration of any of man's laws. Even in this land I could live outside of man's system (therein lies my weakness).
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Post by Morris on Apr 27, 2010 9:48:17 GMT -5
I see it this way. Pay to caesar that which is caesars (the minted coin used to do everyday business and to pay debts) Unto God that which is God's (righteousness with the consideration of loving your neighbor as yourself). If I choose the two systems then I must play within the rules of those systems which may mean that I must submit to the consequences of the law of the land when I choose that God's ways are higher and more important to observe over a bad law. This is a choice of of all men to be in the world but not a part of the world. Or be like a monk and not be involved in the consideration of any of man's laws. Even in this land I could live outside of man's system (therein lies my weakness). I do see how you are coming to those conclusions, and I certainly agree with how you say we are to submit to the judgments of authority when a law is not followed. I think my issue with the rest, i.e. not paying taxes, is that it sets aside the fact that God says he instituted authority and that we are to " Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men" 1 Peter 2:13. Jesus was asked " Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?". Jesus' answer was essentially, 'yes'. But notice why the question was asked in the first place, " the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words". So now we have to ask, what was the 'trap' and how did the Pharisees think it was going to work? The Pharisees must have anticipated Jesus saying not to pay taxes to the Roman authorities, and thus have reason to have him arrested. They had several reasons to believe Jesus might say to not pay taxes. I believe those reasons are pretty much the same reasons why we might be inclined to not want to pay taxes. |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 27, 2010 10:52:53 GMT -5
I see it this way. Pay to caesar that which is caesars (the minted coin used to do everyday business and to pay debts) Unto God that which is God's (righteousness with the consideration of loving your neighbor as yourself). If I choose the two systems then I must play within the rules of those systems which may mean that I must submit to the consequences of the law of the land when I choose that God's ways are higher and more important to observe over a bad law. This is a choice of of all men to be in the world but not a part of the world. Or be like a monk and not be involved in the consideration of any of man's laws. Even in this land I could live outside of man's system (therein lies my weakness). I do see how you are coming to those conclusions, and I certainly agree with how you say we are to submit to the judgments of authority when a law is not followed. I think my issue with the rest, i.e. not paying taxes, is that it sets aside the fact that God says he instituted authority and that we are to " Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men" 1 Peter 2:13. Jesus was asked " Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?". Jesus' answer was essentially, 'yes'. But notice why the question was asked in the first place, " the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words". So now we have to ask, what was the 'trap' and how did the Pharisees think it was going to work? The Pharisees must have anticipated Jesus saying not to pay taxes to the Roman authorities, and thus have reason to have him arrested. They had several reasons to believe Jesus might say to not pay taxes. I believe those reasons are pretty much the same reasons why we might be inclined to not want to pay taxes. This thread has kind of morphed, but to finish the thought, until a better system comes along I will pay my taxes but will object to their use. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 27, 2010 17:51:26 GMT -5
This thread has kind of morphed, but to finish the thought, until a better system comes along I will pay my taxes but will object to their use. Indeed. On both counts. |
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Post by didymus on Apr 27, 2010 19:44:26 GMT -5
My original question was, which denomination did God establish? I take it that question has been answered, so you all moved on to which tax system was established by God? Or, should we go to war, or not? Forgive me, but I am not sure how all that fits the original question. One thing this has done. It has assured me that the older the manuscript the better. It seems the further away from the original question this thread goes, the further away from the original intent of the thread. Can the same be true about manuscripts? The closer the manuscript is to the original, the more reliable the manuscript. Is this true?  |
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Post by Morris on Apr 28, 2010 8:45:30 GMT -5
Can the same be true about manuscripts? The closer the manuscript is to the original, the more reliable the manuscript. Is this true? It certainly has the potential. I think there's greater room for error when a manuscript is translated to another language compared to simply copying though, and even greater still when translated through multiple languages (as opposed to translating directly from the language the original was written in). |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 28, 2010 18:38:49 GMT -5
I heard something several years ago that made sense at the time, regarding the dating of manuscripts. The logic was that scrolls that got frequent use would wear out faster, so would be more likely to have successive copies made of it as they wore out from use. Therefore, the newer manuscripts might actually reflect the oldest and most used texts; whereas the older manuscripts could represent texts that were not used for various reasons.
This line of reasoning may have been presented by the KJV-only crowd. In fact, I'm certain that's where I heard of it. As I said, it made sense at the time, even though I've never supported a KJV-only position. It may still make sense, I just haven't contemplated it recently.
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Post by didymus on Apr 29, 2010 3:18:04 GMT -5
I heard something several years ago that made sense at the time, regarding the dating of manuscripts. The logic was that scrolls that got frequent use would wear out faster, so would be more likely to have successive copies made of it as they wore out from use. Therefore, the newer manuscripts might actually reflect the oldest and most used texts; whereas the older manuscripts could represent texts that were not used for various reasons. This line of reasoning may have been presented by the KJV-only crowd. In fact, I'm certain that's where I heard of it. As I said, it made sense at the time, even though I've never supported a KJV-only position. It may still make sense, I just haven't contemplated it recently. You just gave me another question. We are not dealing with just a manuscript here and there. We are actually dealing with lines of manuscripts. It's like the family line. Which line of manuscripts come from the original, and which lines are simply copied from that line. Does the Textus Receptus represent the original line, or does Westcott & Hort? I do know the first translation since the finding of the dead sea scrolls is the "New American Standard." At least that is what I was told.  |
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Post by Morris on Apr 29, 2010 9:29:11 GMT -5
Here is some very interesting notes regarding the Bible's manuscripts - www.allaboutthejourney.org/bible-manuscripts.htmI don't know who's site this is but it matches the info I have seen over the years from multiple sources. As a historical document, we should probably be placing more faith in it's accuracy than we do (not considering the difficulty inherent in the translation of languages). |
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Post by didymus on Apr 29, 2010 17:52:20 GMT -5
Thanks Morris, I'll check it out.
By the way, I've added a new forum at Way of Truth. It is, "70AD - Then What." Have you ever heard the question, "Well, if it's all over, what are we here for"? That's what this forum is about.
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