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Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 7, 2010 9:54:08 GMT -5
Christians DO NOT "have" sins in respect of them being held against them. John reminds his readers that Christians (light walkers) sins are washed away constantly. 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Notice the relationship that is needed if the word is to keep us cleansed? We must abide in Him, walk in His ways, in obedience to His commands, led by the Spirit of God - being quick to confess and repent. And it is then we will find we are being cleansed as we go. No thief is pardoned and set free just so he can go out and steal some more without fear of reprisal. |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 7, 2010 11:47:44 GMT -5
Christians DO NOT "have" sins in respect of them being held against them. John reminds his readers that Christians (light walkers) sins are washed away constantly. This is something I agree with. Paul went through a lot to tell us that we have been separated from sin and placed in Christ, died (separated) to sin and made alive to God. We cannot be in sin and in Christ at the same time. I disagree. Sheldon, you said it, "We cannot be in sin and in Christ at the same time." Yet that is exactly what you and Dan are allowing, IMO. To walk in the light is to walk as Jesus himself walked. That's what it means to follow Jesus. And guess what? No sin was found in him. (John 8:12 NASB) Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." Ephesians 5:7-10 NASB (7) Therefore do not be partakers with them; (see Ephesians 5:3-5)(8) for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light(9) (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), (10) trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 1 John 1:7-10 NASB (7) but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. (8) If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. IMO, saying that it is natural or OK to sin and still be walking in the light is the same as saying you have no sin (1 John 1:8,10). |
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Post by Morris on Apr 7, 2010 12:13:22 GMT -5
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Notice the relationship that is needed if the word is to keep us cleansed? We must abide in Him, walk in His ways, in obedience to His commands, led by the Spirit of God - being quick to confess and repent. And it is then we will find we are being cleansed as we go. Here's the interesting thing about this verse and what so many (including myself) have been taught, "confess" here is not 'asking for forgiveness'. It means "to assent, i.e. covenant, acknowledge". When we come to Christ we must agree and concur (acknowledge) that we are a sinner, that we are in sin, then Christ can work in us. Let's look at this passage, verse 6, " If we claim to have fellowship with him [God]" is about we say and " yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth" is about our true character not matching our words, verse 7, " But if we walk in the light... the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all ["all, any, every, the whole"] sin [singular]" says that it is His blood that cleanses us from sin, not relying on ourselves, verse 8, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" says that if we claim to be without sin, we are wrong, however, verse 9, " If we confess our sins", that is, acknowledge that we do have sin, then verse 7 holds true and thus " he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all ["all, any, every, the whole"] unrighteousness.", and again, verse 10, " If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.". Notice the statements, "If" we claim to be sinless... "If" we acknowledge our sinful state... "If" we walk in darkness... "If" we walk in the light... It is the difference between saying I don't need Christ as my Lord because I'm righteous enough in myself, and saying I am not righteous and have sin so therefore I do need Him as my Lord. Our state of sin will not be changed if we don't even acknowledge it. However, once we confess our state in faith, He cleanses us from that state, completely. We transition from our own righteousness (which is as dirty rages) to His righteousness (garments of fine white linen) which becomes ours. Thus David could say " Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." Ps 32:1,2 & Rom 4:7,8. When we are in Christ, God doesn't just forgive, He declares us innocent as if we had never sinned! Now this is absolutely true. Can there be true repentance if nothing changes? I don't believe so. There will be struggles and some failures, but the heart and the mind must be grieved over these as God is. But here is the amazing thing, we don't go through a constant sin-forgiveness cycle. We don't go constantly in and out of Christ. He nailed my sin to the cross and I died to that sin. Consequently, I now live in Christ; in His righteousness and under His Lordship. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 7, 2010 12:15:29 GMT -5
I disagree. Sheldon, you said it, "We cannot be in sin and in Christ at the same time." Yet that is exactly what you and Dan are allowing, IMO. To walk in the light is to walk as Jesus himself walked. That's what it means to follow Jesus. And guess what? No sin was found in him. Then none of us are in Christ and we all are in sin for we cannot avoid sinning. Paul says this himself. We are not capable of walking perfectly without sin. If this were the case, we would not need forgiveness. |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 7, 2010 13:37:15 GMT -5
... verse 8, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" says that if we claim to be without sin, we are wrong, however, verse 9, " If we confess our sins", that is, acknowledge that we do have sin, then verse 7 holds true and thus " he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all ["all, any, every, the whole"] unrighteousness.", and again, verse 10, " If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.". ... However, once we confess our state in faith, He cleanses us from that state, completely. We transition from our own righteousness (which is as dirty rages) to His righteousness (garments of fine white linen) which becomes ours. It seems we view verse 9 differently. You appear to be saying that "If we confess our sins" is merely a confession of being a person who sins. I see it as a confessing of individual sins as we become aware that we've sinned. But here is the amazing thing, we don't go through a constant sin-forgiveness cycle. We don't go constantly in and out of Christ. He nailed my sin to the cross and I died to that sin. Consequently, I now live in Christ; in His righteousness and under His Lordship. I disagree with this, too. Jesus wants us to abide/remain in him. Paul, twice, tells Christians to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5) and to see if they partake of the Lord's Supper worthily (1 Corinthians 11:28). Also, Jesus said that if we don't forgive others, God will not forgive us (Matthew 6:14-15). If all future sin is forgiven with one confession of sinfulness, does that mean we no longer have to be concerned with forgiving others? |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 7, 2010 13:47:48 GMT -5
I disagree. Sheldon, you said it, "We cannot be in sin and in Christ at the same time." Yet that is exactly what you and Dan are allowing, IMO. To walk in the light is to walk as Jesus himself walked. That's what it means to follow Jesus. And guess what? No sin was found in him. Then none of us are in Christ and we all are in sin for we cannot avoid sinning. Paul says this himself. We are not capable of walking perfectly without sin. If this were the case, we would not need forgiveness. Light and darkness do not co-exist as one. A tree does not bear both good and bad fruit. (2 Corinthians 6:14 NASB) Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? (Luke 6:43 NASB) "For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. We can agree to disagree. There are many other things we do agree upon. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 7, 2010 15:24:12 GMT -5
We can agree to disagree. There are many other things we do agree upon. Like that for instance.  Just to clarify though, I'm not saying we have a license to sin. But if we do, and we will due to the sin nature, scripture says it is not imputed to us. The alternative is the Roman Catholic system of being in sin until asking for forgiveness, and that is not found in NT. We are called to be slaves to righteousness, not to sin. Yet still we will sin, even though it be drastically reduced through of our love for God and our renewed conscience. Does Paul agree with this? I believe so; " What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 7:24 - 8:2 What is truly amazing is that we are not capable of doing good (by God's standards), Rom 7:18. But it gets really interesting here. Paul says he wants to do good and yet he can't. Why? Because nothing good lives in him. He comes to the conclusion that, when he is in Christ and does something he doesn't want to, it is not he himself that does it, but rather the sin nature in him. Rom 7:20. This lines up with passages that say we have died to sin, sin is not imputed to us, and that "he condemned sin in sinful man" Rom 8:3. Now, It is very important to note the Paul talks about the mind here in Romans. " So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin." Rom 7:25. And then, " Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." Rom 8:5-8 Remember that a sin develops in the heart and mind before an action might make it visible to others. Salvation is entered into by faith (in the heart and mind) and we are kept the same way. Here's a thought for everyone; In the same way that God does not impute sin against us, we do not get the credit for any good we do. Paul stated that no good lies in us, and if that is true (I think it is, he got it from both the OT and Jesus), how can we get the credit for it? Jesus said, " No one is good—except God alone" Mark 10:18. Good comes from God, " For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:10 " for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose" Phil 2:13 The point of this is that we have to confess our state of sin to even be able to come to the Lord, and we also are to confess that it is He who does the good. I haven't even really touched the aspect of setting aside our will for His, as living sacrifices. Again though, it begins in the mind and heart, and the fruit is only an indication of the life-giving sap. |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 7, 2010 17:06:42 GMT -5
Apparently, we also completely disagree on the interpretation of Romans 7. So until we can somehow agree on that, using it as a foundation for an argument is pretty much meaningless. In my view of Romans 7, Paul is describing the experience of being outside of Christ. It is in Christ that the battle is overcome. An email came in that I had to take time to answer, so now I've lost my train of thought on this. That's what happens when you're over 50. But here's a link that may explain my view of Romans 7 a little bit: www.evangelicaloutreach.org/rom7.htm |
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Post by Morris on Apr 8, 2010 11:05:55 GMT -5
Apparently, we also completely disagree on the interpretation of Romans 7. So until we can somehow agree on that, using it as a foundation for an argument is pretty much meaningless. In my view of Romans 7, Paul is describing the experience of being outside of Christ. It is in Christ that the battle is overcome. Hmmm... but see, I even agree with that. Paul was not writing of the normal Christian Life here. The difference here is (as I see the passage) between being a slave of sin or not. Before I come to Christ I am a slave to sin; I sin without resistance, as a slave performs for their master, because I do my will. My will, that which is in me, is not good and even " When I want to do good, evil is right there with me". Being a Christian is about who's will is done; is it mine or is it God's. That's why we call Him "Lord", right? He is our master. We die to our will so that His is done. In doing this we become His slave. Paul says nothing good lives in him, and that is absolutely true when talking strictly of his own being. Jesus confirmed that! However, as a Christian, we then have the Spirit of Christ in us and are clothed with His righteousness. Our nature is sinful, but in Christ we partake of the divine nature, 2 Peter 1:4. I can't say all I want to at the moment, but I'll talk about some things the article you linked to did not address regarding this passage, in my next post. [Edit: Perhaps I'll take advantage of the new thread created for this topic.] |
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