|
|
Post by Once4all on Apr 2, 2010 12:57:23 GMT -5
I don't believe in OSAS and I agree with your post here, Sheldon. But I'm trying to reconcile this with your other post about God not seeing a Christian's sin. IMO, one cause of falling away is to continue in sin when you know it is wrong. A former pastor of mine who was dictator of the largest independent Baptist church in all of Canada committed suicide in the summer of last year. Did he lose his salvation upon committing an act that he knew was definite sin (murder)? www.fundamentalforums.com/crown-college/69350-greg-baker-offed-himself-5.htmlI'm not the judge. And I've learned not to address such specific scenarios, whether true or hypothetical, because it only leads to nitpicking about things we don't have a clue about. As Sheldon said, we have no idea what was in his heart and mind. |
|
|
|
Post by didymus on Apr 3, 2010 9:04:37 GMT -5
What makes you think suicide is a sin? |
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Apr 3, 2010 20:30:36 GMT -5
What makes you think suicide is a sin? If premeditated murder is a sin, then suicide is a sin. Agree? Disagree? |
|
|
|
Post by didymus on Apr 4, 2010 9:41:44 GMT -5
What makes you think suicide is a sin? If premeditated murder is a sin, then suicide is a sin. Agree? Disagree? I don't agree. I have studied this at great deal some time ago. No where in the Bible is suicide condemned. Nor can find the idea. And before anyone says about Hebrew and Greek, I looked into that too. Nowhere in Strong's Concordance is there a word that means, "self-murder." The act of suicide is carried in the case of Judas Iscariot, for example. But, was he ever condemned for committing suicide. I haven't seen that either. He was condemned for betraying Jesus and it is said, "he went his own way." Sorry, there is a lack of condemnation for suicide in the Bible.  |
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Apr 4, 2010 20:22:59 GMT -5
If premeditated murder is a sin, then suicide is a sin. Agree? Disagree? I don't agree. I have studied this at great deal some time ago. No where in the Bible is suicide condemned. Nor can find the idea. And before anyone says about Hebrew and Greek, I looked into that too. Nowhere in Strong's Concordance is there a word that means, "self-murder." The act of suicide is carried in the case of Judas Iscariot, for example. But, was he ever condemned for committing suicide. I haven't seen that either. He was condemned for betraying Jesus and it is said, "he went his own way." Sorry, there is a lack of condemnation for suicide in the Bible. So, according to what you just said, premeditated murder is not sin. Stealing apples is not sin by your definition either, because the specific theft of stealing APPLES is nowhere to be found in the Bible, but STEALING is condemned just like MURDER is condemned... I guess what Cain did was just a small boo boo... Exodus 20:13-15 - Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. And in case you should mistake "kill" for something other than murder, listen to Jesus' version of those same these verses: Matthew 19:18 - He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, |
|
|
|
Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 4, 2010 20:27:20 GMT -5
Didy,
Is suicide an act of faith? Because whatever is not of faith IS sin. Rom 14:23 is not just about what we eat.
|
|
|
|
Post by didymus on Apr 5, 2010 4:51:03 GMT -5
Point 1 - I did not say premeditated murder is not sin. Please read what I did say, instead of reading something I did not say - Mell. Point 2 - Romans 14 is dealing with food, not suicide. When I buy a car, that is not of faith - so is it sin? As I am writing this, I am also watching the news. That is not of faith either, so is it sin. What else can you apply Romans 14.23 to that are not "of faith," that can now be called sin? Is being a Phillies fan "of faith," if not is it therefore sin? There are may things in life that are not "of faith," are they all sin? If you stay within the text, in fact in that very verse, Paul is talking about food. Some people believe it is wrong to eat meat, then for them, if they eat meat, for them it is sin. For those who believe it is okay to eat meat, for them to eat meat, it is not sin. If you read Romans from verse 1, you will see that is exactly what Paul is saying in verse 23. If your saying there is a principle here that goes beyond food, I agree. Paul also mentions celebrating days. If you celebrate unto the Lord, that's okay. But, if you not celebrate a day, if you do not celebrate unto the Lord, that's okay too. Now let's look at verses 7-9. "For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living."The Gospel of Christ is that he "gave" his life, not that anyone took his life, but that he "gave" his life as a ransom for many. He willing went into a situation in which he knew he would be put to death. Could that be called "suicide"? I once saw a movie in which a train was out of control. One man threw himself overboard to stop the train. He committed suicide so that others might live. Was that a sin? Didn't Jesus say there is no greater love than to give your life for your friends. And what about those who give their lives in war. Giving up your life for the benefit of others is the greatest form of love. So, in many cases, suicide can be a noble act. And, I have yet to find any Scripture that states that suicide is sin.  |
|
|
|
Post by Morris on Apr 5, 2010 10:07:12 GMT -5
I have a more simplistic view of this Hebrews passage. I think that yes it is impossible to be brought back after having left those things once enjoyed but it is not impossible with God because with God all things are possible. I think we tend to take passages such as in Hebrews to help support a view we already wish were true. There are far many other places in Scripture that show the restoration of a fallen people that I don't think we should take one to mean something that seems to contradict the others. Exactly. Herein lies the difference between 'stumble' and 'true falling away'. Only God can judge and know a person's heart and therefore have foreknowledge as to their salvation. God's judgment is not the same as ours, agreed? |
|
|
|
Post by Morris on Apr 5, 2010 10:50:28 GMT -5
Well, I might as well weight in on this question of suicide too, I guess.  God said, " Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death." Ex 21:12. That sounds like a blanket statement about an act, but that's not the case. God also said, " 10"Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you cross the Jordan into Canaan, 11 select some towns to be your cities of refuge, to which a person who has killed someone accidentally may flee. 12 They will be places of refuge from the avenger, so that a person accused of murder may not die before he stands trial before the assembly. 13 These six towns you give will be your cities of refuge. 14 Give three on this side of the Jordan and three in Canaan as cities of refuge. 15 These six towns will be a place of refuge for Israelites, aliens and any other people living among them, so that anyone who has killed another accidentally can flee there.
16 " 'If a man strikes someone with an iron object so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. 17 Or if anyone has a stone in his hand that could kill, and he strikes someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. 18 Or if anyone has a wooden object in his hand that could kill, and he hits someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. 19 The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death. 20 If anyone with malice aforethought shoves another or throws something at him intentionally so that he dies 21 or if in hostility he hits him with his fist so that he dies, that person shall be put to death; he is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.
22 " 'But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally 23 or, without seeing him, drops a stone on him that could kill him, and he dies, then since he was not his enemy and he did not intend to harm him, 24 the assembly must judge between him and the avenger of blood according to these regulations. 25 The assembly must protect the one accused of murder from the avenger of blood and send him back to the city of refuge to which he fled. He must stay there until the death of the high priest, who was anointed with the holy oil.
26 " 'But if the accused ever goes outside the limits of the city of refuge to which he has fled 27 and the avenger of blood finds him outside the city, the avenger of blood may kill the accused without being guilty of murder. 28 The accused must stay in his city of refuge until the death of the high priest; only after the death of the high priest may he return to his own property.
29 " 'These are to be legal requirements for you throughout the generations to come, wherever you live." Numbers 35:10-29. _______________ This was a long passage but I feel it should be read in its entirety. There are several things to note here; - These rules were for " Israelites, aliens and any other people living among them", not just Israelites. (Btw, even in the OT, "Israel" consisted of natural born and others who "converted"), - If someone was found guilty of murder, someone had to kill that person to execute God's regulation, and yet they were not guilty of murder themselves, - We find both judgment and mercy relating to murder in this passage, with a very interesting connection to the death of the anointed high priest, and - even a person declared not guilty of murder with malice, who can be protected from harm, can be rightfully killed by another if found outside the "city of refuge"! (This is another allusion to Christ being the New Jerusalem, IMHO. He is the city, we are the inhabitants. Similar to the House of God, the temple, and the way we build it up room by room, as well as the way we are all members of Christ's body; His body with us constituting the many parts). I don't really think that "acts" themselves are sin, but rather the sin of the act comes from the heart. If the act of murder is sin, then God told people to sin, and that isn't possible due to the very nature of God. There's some of my thoughts.  |
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Apr 5, 2010 11:30:40 GMT -5
Morris,
Some of the verses you quoted include accidental death and death by justice (capital punishment). I think we must "zero" in on the ones that are of a deliberate nature. That is what I believe murder represents.
Despite what others may say, suicide is not noble. Suicide for Christians is usually a result of not being able to face the "music" that would come...I would be very curious to hear some examples where suicide would be considered noble! I believe it is in direct disobedience to God. It is a deliberate murder of a human.
Deliberately taking the life of any human creation of God IS MURDER. If you deliberately kill yourself, it is still MURDER.
Is going to war with the deliberate intention to kill others murder? I say yes because most, if not all, wars are political in nature. They are not God-ordained like they were when Israel was a theocracy. But that's another can of worms isn't it?
|
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Apr 5, 2010 11:40:40 GMT -5
Point 1 - I did not say premeditated murder is not sin. Please read what I did say, instead of reading something I did not say - Mell. Sorry, if you were offended at anything I said in error. Let me attempt to clarify what you did say then. Would you mind answering these simple statements with an agreeing or disagreeing yes or no? Suicide is the deliberate taking of one's own life. (Yes or no)
Deliberately taking the life of a human being is sin. (Yes or no)
I'll reserve further comment until I have your clear understanding... |
|
|
|
Post by Morris on Apr 5, 2010 13:48:42 GMT -5
Morris, Some of the verses you quoted include accidental death and death by justice (capital punishment). I think we must "zero" in on the ones that are of a deliberate nature. That is what I believe murder represents. I generally agree with you, mellontes, with the exception that (as I mentioned earlier) we can't go on what we believe murder represents (God is the judge). If we do we've already set ourselves up in error. Cain killed Abel and God declared him untouchable! If murder is pardonable, is it impossible for suicide to be? I don't know. I leave that to God to judge (and I wouldn't want to be the one tempting judgment).The passage in Numbers 35 even gave permission to kill a murderer by accident if he left the city of refuse! Here's the crux of it, is the act of suicide a sin that causes a person to 'lose' their salvation, or is it that the person already walked away from it (or never even had it in the first place). Isn't it the heart (character) that drives actions? Now, what if a medical condition was involved (such as to cause deep depression)? The scriptures themselves do not treat all murder the same, even when comparing deliberate to deliberate. I believe this is because God isn't judging the act so much as He is judging the person behind it. Does Jesus Himself not say in Matt 5:21,22, " You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment."? This tells me that if murder is a sin so is being anger with a brother! With our discussion of suicide being equal to murder, Jesus says anger against a brother is equal to murder/suicide! When are we as Christians going to get past "acts" and start dealing with the heart and character which should be like Christ's? This isn't intended as a direct against mellontes at all, but rather to each and every Christian (myself included); this is no different than the first century Jews who had the law of God and therefore didn't need the heart of God. They thought they pleased God by doing what he said instead of being what he showed. So, my clear and unwavering stance on suicide is that I dare not judge another man's standing with God. As if my judgment even mattered. |
|
|
|
Post by Once4all on Apr 5, 2010 15:55:15 GMT -5
Samson committed suicide and in the process also murdered (intentionally, I might add) a few thousand Philistines. Yet Samson is listed in the Hebrews 11 "Hall of Faith."
I think the intentions of the heart are the determining factor if an act is considered sin or not.
Samson did not commit suicide out of selfishness, nor to cause hurt in someone else. By that, I'm thinking of suicides that results from an "I'll show them!" attitude. But even that boils down to selfishness.
However, Samson did do it out of vengeance, as Judges 16:28 reveals. But since God granted him his request, we could rightly say that it was God using Samson to exact vengeance.
(Deuteronomy 32:43 NASB) "Rejoice, O nations, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And will render vengeance on His adversaries, And will atone for His land and His people."
Some may not consider what Samson did as an act of suicide, but he did say "Let me die with the Philistines!" rather than have a desire to be spared from it. In a sense, it was a murder-suicide.
|
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Apr 5, 2010 16:49:51 GMT -5
Morris,
I think I have long stopped discussing whether one loses salvation or not because of suicide. My last few posts have been regarding whether suicide is sin or not. I agree with what you said, but the issue is NOT whether a person should be spared or declared untouchable, the issue is whether or not deliberate murder is sin. David had Uriah killed because of his desire for his wife. That was sin. David repented and was spared. Some murders are met with swift "eye for an eye" justice. I believe suicide is sin because it is a deliberate attempt to kill another human being.
Sower,
That example of Sampson when he pushed the pillars apart thereby killing himself and the Phillistines is a good one. I don't know if this eliminates that his act was one of sin, but there are definitely things to be learned. The fact that God gave him the strength may even be indicative of divine judgment upon Sampson (and the Philistines) at his own hand. But was it still a sinful act?
The fact that Sampson was listed in the "hall of faith" has no bearing. David was considered a man "after God's own heart" and yet it is quite evident that he sinned by killing Uriah...
All of us who are saved have been forgiven our sin...
When you said, "I think the intentions of the heart are the determining factor if an act is considered sin or not" concerns me a tad. If it is only a matter of the heart, then what good is the written record that tells us what sin is in regard to murder?
One could say that he committed murder in good conscience and therefore could not be held accountable by anyone. I believe thousands of inmates would love that to be incorporated into the legal system....
Whether God knows the heart is not the issue; it is whether suicide, the deliberate killing of a human being, is a sinful act.
All can be pardoned and forgiven. But doesn't that in, and of itself, indicate a sinful act worthy of that forgiveness? If one has not sinned then what pardon exists for that non-sin?
That Sampson story is just loaded with great stuff. Thanks for that little look into what is likely a huge cavern of gems...
|
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Apr 5, 2010 16:52:19 GMT -5
I'm going to throw this into the mix because since it is NT stuff and what we as Christians are under today it should settle any ambiguity the OT left us with.
Jesus said, if you love Me you will keep my commandments.
Here they are:
Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you
Resist not evil, if a man smite thee on one cheek, turn to him the other
Avenge not yourselves, rather give place unto wrath, and suffer yourselves to be defrauded.
If a man takes away thy goods , ask them not back.
Agree with your adversary, submitting even to wrong for the sake of peace.
Labor not to be rich , be ready to every good work, give to those who ask , relieve the afflicted.
Do not give your alms before men , let not your left hand know what your right hand is doing.
Overcome evil with good.
Bless them that curse you.
Pray for them that dispitefully use you and afflict you.
Grudge not,complain not,condemn not.
Put away anger, wrath, bitterness, and all evil speaking.
Confess your faults to one another
Be not conformed to the world, love not the world.
Deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts. If your right hand offends you, cut it off.
Servants be faithful, even to bad masters.
Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate.
Owe no man anything.
In case of sin, speak not of it to others, but tell the offending brother of the matter between you and him alone, with a view toward recovery.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart.
Pray always, with brevity and simplicity, pray secretly.
In everything give thanks to God and recognize Him in all your ways.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Take Christ for an example and follow in his steps.
Let Christ dwell in your heart by faith.
Esteem Christ more highly then all earthly things , yes then your own life.
Confess Christ freely before men.
Beware lest the cares of life or the allurements of pleasure weaken his hold on your heart.
love your neighbor as yourself.
Exercise lordship over no one.
Seek not your own welfare only , not bear your own burdens merely but have regard to those of others.
Let your light shine before men hold forth the word of life, do good to all men as you have the opportunity.
Be blameless and harmless as sons of God.
Be gentle, meek, king hearted, compassionate, merciful, forgiving.
Be sober, grave, sincere and temporate.
Speak the truth every man with his neighbor, put away all lying.
Whatever you do , do it heartily as unto the Lord.
Be watchful, vigilant, brave, joyful, courteous and manly.
Be clothed with humility, be patient toward all.
Follow peace with all men.
Sympathise in the joys and sorrows of others.
Follow after things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, virtuous and praiseful.
Refrain from adultery, fornication, uncleanness, drunkeness, covetousness, wrath, strife, sedition, hatred, emulation, boasting, vainglory, envy, jesting and foolish talking.
Do all to the glory of God.
Obey rulers, submit to every ordinance of man fore the Lord's sake.
Be holy in all manner of conversation.
Let your speech be always with grace seasoned with salt.
Give no occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's and to God what is God's.
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are the mournful for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.
Blessed are those persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account . Rejoice and be glad for your reward is in heaven , for so they persecuted the prophets before you.
Let not your heart be troubled.
Be anxious for nothing.
Cast your cares unto the Lord.
Take out the log from your own eye and then you will see clearly to take out the speck from your brother's eye.
Seek first the kingdom of God and it's righteousness and all these things will be added to you.
Sufficient for the day is it's own trouble.
|
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Apr 5, 2010 17:30:24 GMT -5
Hi Allyn,
Here is the verse you first quoted:
John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I agree.
But weren't Jesus' commandments the same as His Father's?
John 15:10 - If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Were all those verses you quoted spoken by Jesus to His disciples prior to His mentioning of John 14:15? I think there are at least some which are outside that extent, but it was difficult to determine because the references weren't included. (and I am lazy today)...
I know I am contrarian to just about everything, but wouldn't His comment to His disciples be regarding things that had already been written and more appropriately applied to the OT and NOT all NT Scriptures because they had not yet been recorded?
Just questions...
|
|
|
|
Post by Once4all on Apr 5, 2010 19:44:55 GMT -5
Allyn, great post! I wish there were scripture citations listed along with them, but they can easily be searched and found. When you said, "I think the intentions of the heart are the determining factor if an act is considered sin or not" concerns me a tad. That wasn't Sower's post about Samson, it was mine. That's OK. Regarding your quote above, I more accurately should have said, "I think the intentions of the heart are the determining factor if the perpetrator of an act is considered morally blameless or not." Bev |
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Apr 5, 2010 20:22:11 GMT -5
Allyn, great post! I wish there were scripture citations listed along with them, but they can easily be searched and found. When you said, "I think the intentions of the heart are the determining factor if an act is considered sin or not" concerns me a tad. That wasn't Sower's post about Samson, it was mine. That's OK. Regarding your quote above, I more accurately should have said, "I think the intentions of the heart are the determining factor if the perpetrator of an act is considered morally blameless or not." Bev Oopsies...sorry Sower... I should like to inquire further about those "intentions." For me, and my present understanding, could not one of those intentions be accidental, like a jealous husband who flies off into a rage, pushes his wife down accidentally killing her? To me, that is not murder, but he would sure have a hard time proving it wasn't in a court of law. But take this same jealous husband who finds out about the affair, purchases a gun, and then lies in hiding waiting for the wife to come home. And when she does arrive, "Blam, blam" as two shots from close range pierce her heart killing her immediately. Both were by a jealous man but one's intentions were different and most dastardly... (I apologize for the graphic language) |
|
|
|
Post by Morris on Apr 5, 2010 20:57:06 GMT -5
Morris, I think I have long stopped discussing whether one loses salvation or not because of suicide. My last few posts have been regarding whether suicide is sin or not. I agree with what you said, but the issue is NOT whether a person should be spared or declared untouchable, the issue is whether or not deliberate murder is sin. David had Uriah killed because of his desire for his wife. That was sin. David repented and was spared. Some murders are met with swift "eye for an eye" justice. I believe suicide is sin because it is a deliberate attempt to kill another human being. We agree far more than we disagree here (I think, anyway). Suicide is generally wrong and a sin, but it can't quite be a blanket statement (such as if you commit suicide you can't go to heaven, which again I don't think you're necessarily saying anyway). My reasoning for this has been in my previous posts and I'll attempt to summarize this for the sake of our collective discussion. God said that murder, the killing of a person, is against His commandments. However, He also permitted it in both war and domestic codes. He allowed a person, who accidentally took the life of another person, to be killed by someone else, even though that first person was not guilty of actual murder. Not even the one who intentionally kills that person is guilty of murder. (Note: It appears as though scripture does not refer to accidental taking of life as murder.) What I am saying is that there are times found in scripture when the intentional killing of another person is not considered murder. If it is not considered murder, if it is permitted by God, is it always a sin? If God says "You shall not murder", and then says 'go kill these people', or 'you cannot kill him here, but you can kill him over there', is He contradicting Himself and telling people it is situationally alright to murder? No, and I think that is because murder does not correspond absolutely to mere "intentional killing". God cannot go against his very nature and tell someone to go against His own word. Now, what I wrote above (hopefully) paves the ground for what I'd like to say here. If intentionally killing another person is sometimes murder, and sometimes not murder, is it the act of killing that is the sin? Does everybody see what I'm getting at here? If the act is the sin, how can it be a sin sometimes and not at other times? Again, I think Jesus tells us in Matthew 5, and this is what I'm hoping people will see. The sin is committed before the act ever occurs! The act doesn't condemn us, our heart does. Look at Job 9 and see what he says of God and then what he says about himself in verse 20, " Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty." Even if Job was able to avoid committing an act of sin, he says his mouth (the expression of his heart) would condemn him. Job understood the heart is what was judged, not the mere action. Job 1:5 says, " When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom." Job may never see an act of sin from his children but he was concerned with what was going on in their hearts. As I study verses talking about the heart and the mouth, I find that there is a deep connection between both the heart and mouth, with sin. Here's an example, in 1 Peter 2:22 (quoting Isaiah 53:9) we read regarding Christ, "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." Isn't it interesting that earlier in Isaiah 6:7 we find, " With it he touched my mouth and said,See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for." " " With the heart and the mouth we are condemned, and with the heart and mouth we find salvation in Christ; " That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Rom 10:9,10. Sorry for the length and such, but I get so amazed at scripture sometimes that it just swallows me up. |
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Apr 5, 2010 21:53:31 GMT -5
Good thoughts Mr. Morris... I think that intertwined in all of this is the theocracy that Israel lived under. God told them to kill but it wasn't considered sin. Can you direct me to that passage where you say an unintentional act led to the taking of a life yet he was punished as if he had committed murder. At least that was my understanding of what you said... This is slowly becoming a jumbled mess... |
|
|
|
Post by Once4all on Apr 5, 2010 22:15:24 GMT -5
Sheldon, good post.
Here are some words regarding thoughts and intent of the heart.
(Genesis 6:5 NASB) Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(1 Chronicles 28:9 NASB) "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.
(Hebrews 4:12 NASB) For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
(Acts 8:22 NASB) "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
I think a good companion study to this would be on the word "blameless" in scripture.
Bev
|
|
|
|
Post by Once4all on Apr 5, 2010 22:34:20 GMT -5
I should like to inquire further about those "intentions." For me, and my present understanding, could not one of those intentions be accidental, like a jealous husband who flies off into a rage, pushes his wife down accidentally killing her? To me, that is not murder, but he would sure have a hard time proving it wasn't in a court of law. But take this same jealous husband who finds out about the affair, purchases a gun, and then lies in hiding waiting for the wife to come home. And when she does arrive, "Blam, blam" as two shots from close range pierce her heart killing her immediately. Both were by a jealous man but one's intentions were different and most dastardly... (I apologize for the graphic language) Regardless of what the court of law thinks or determines, God would know what the man's heart was at the time, whether there was murder in his heart or if it was an accident. Of course, he did push her with some kind of intent, presumably to harm, even if not to kill. If there was hate in his heart, the intent may be deemed that of murder. Consider this one example of an unintentional killing: Deuteronomy 19:4-6 NASB (4) "Now this is the case of the manslayer who may flee there and live: when he kills his friend unintentionally, not hating him previously-- (5) as when a man goes into the forest with his friend to cut wood, and his hand swings the axe to cut down the tree, and the iron head slips off the handle and strikes his friend so that he dies--he may flee to one of these cities and live; (6) otherwise the avenger of blood might pursue the manslayer in the heat of his anger, and overtake him, because the way is long, and take his life, though he was not deserving of death, since he had not hated him previously. Consider what Jesus said: (1 John 3:15 NASB) Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. So scripture is consistent. It comes down to what was in his heart rather than the act itself. Bev |
|
|
|
Post by Morris on Apr 5, 2010 23:06:18 GMT -5
Good thoughts Mr. Morris... I think that intertwined in all of this is the theocracy that Israel lived under. God told them to kill but it wasn't considered sin. Thanks mellontes, but I don't think my points got through as I wanted them to. ;D Israel being under a theocracy has nothing to do with an act being considered a sin or not. If God says the act of murder is a sin, He can not ask a person to commit that act. He can't go against His word or His nature, period. However, Jesus clarifies for us that the act is not the sin, it is what happens in the heart that creates sin. Therefore, God can say 'this' intentional killing is a murder, and 'this other' intentional killing is not a murder, because that act in and of itself is not what determines sin. That must be my failure in communication. I'm not aware of any scripture that refers to an unintentional killing as 'murder'. However, there are examples where intentional killing is not 'murder'. Actually, it is supremely simply; until I get to communicate it.  Heart determines sin. Actions display heart. This is why Paul can talk about eating meat offered to idols as not being a sin and yet possibly being a sin. The act of eating that meat is nothing, but if in your heart you partake of it believing it means something, it is a sin. But eating of it, knowing the truth of your freedom, and causing a brother to defile his conscience, is a sin. So was it the act of eating the meat, or the disregard for a brother in favour of your own desires, that created the sin? In the heart sin is committed, so it is in the heart that the Word and the Spirit come to dwell. " I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people." Jer 31:33 & Heb 8:10 " I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you." Psa 119:11. " Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out,Abba, Father." " Gal 4:6 [P.S. Very good posts, Bev!] |
|
|
|
Post by stephenpatrick on Apr 6, 2010 7:21:17 GMT -5
If the act is the sin, how can it be a sin sometimes and not at other times? Again, I think Jesus tells us in Matthew 5, and this is what I'm hoping people will see. The sin is committed before the act ever occurs! The act doesn't condemn us, our heart does. Good morning. Exactly. Good points Morris. Jesus equates anger with murder. Jesus equates lust with adultery. Support the troops? Kill the enemy? You didn't even use a gun and you're implicated. Steve |
|
|
|
Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 6, 2010 9:22:24 GMT -5
In the case of the jealous husband, the adultery of the wife provoked that jealousy. And wrath is what she expects from him should he find her out. Which is why people hide their sins. It is this sort of provoking to wrath that James says can not produce the righteousness of God.
But then you have the OT law that requires stoning for certain sins and I have to wonder how anybody could do that in a state of 'calm'. Perhaps that is the point, that knowing the penalty ought to make you more diligent to see that such sins are not committed. Like raising a drunkard and blasphemer for a son? Or marrying an unfaithful woman in the first place? Or treating her in such a way that she begins to look elsewhere for love?
But where does suicide fit in since it is not likely the result of provoked wrath or seething hatred, but of despondency and loss of hope?
|
|
|
|
Post by didymus on Apr 6, 2010 17:38:58 GMT -5
Steve and Morris, I agree with both of you. Jesus made it plain, sin is a matter of the heart, for the heart dictates the actions of a person. But, wasn't that always the case? Yet, the law of Moses addressed actions, not necessarily the intent of the heart. Didy, PI |
|
|
|
Post by Morris on Apr 6, 2010 20:24:45 GMT -5
Yet, the law of Moses addressed actions, not necessarily the intent of the heart. This has some truth in it. After all, the law was also a school teacher which taught Israel spiritual truths through visible 'object lessons'. But even with all the regulations and rules, many understood the 'heart' of the matter, as seen in so many passages in the OT. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan Smith on Apr 6, 2010 21:42:06 GMT -5
Christians DO NOT "have" sins in respect of them being held against them. John reminds his readers that Christians (light walkers) sins are washed away constantly.
|
|
|
|
Post by didymus on Apr 7, 2010 1:52:34 GMT -5
Yet, the law of Moses addressed actions, not necessarily the intent of the heart. This has some truth in it. After all, the law was also a school teacher which taught Israel spiritual truths through visible 'object lessons'. But even with all the regulations and rules, many understood the 'heart' of the matter, as seen in so many passages in the OT. I agree. Those thoughts are contained in books like Proverbs, but still the law didn't bring that out, unless I missed or forgot something, which is quite possible. The older I get, the harder it is for me to remember what I want to remember, but have no problem remembering things that are better forgotten. |
|
|
|
Post by Morris on Apr 7, 2010 9:04:30 GMT -5
Christians DO NOT "have" sins in respect of them being held against them. John reminds his readers that Christians (light walkers) sins are washed away constantly. This is something I agree with. Paul went through a lot to tell us that we have been separated from sin and placed in Christ, died (separated) to sin and made alive to God. We cannot be in sin and in Christ at the same time. |
|
