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Post by Allyn on Aug 15, 2009 17:20:46 GMT -5
Have you ever seen one of our military walking past you and wanted to convey to them your thanks, but weren't sure how, or it felt awkward?
Recently, a gentleman from Seattle created a gesture which could
be used to express your thanks and has started a movement to get
the word out..
Please everybody take just a moment to watch..... The Gratitude Salute
...and then forward it to your friends!
THEN START USING THE SIGN.
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Post by Once4all on Aug 15, 2009 23:41:19 GMT -5
Looks kind of dumb to me. It's actually a combination of the American Sign Language signs for "thank you" and "appreciation."
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 16, 2009 7:45:26 GMT -5
Good morning,
I guess, as a Christian, I would have to ask, "Thank them for what?"
If they were patrolling our borders, protecting Americans from "real" incoming threats to this country, then I would possibly (maybe) agree. But that is not taking place, unless you believe the words coming from the government officials of this country explaining why they've been sent across the oceans to fight. For democracy? For our freedom? Because they are jealous of our way of life? For Israel or other allies of ours? Are these true? If so, do we kill or support the killing to maintain those values or alliances? What is the New Testament biblical response?
Does the New Testament provide for Christians answers to supporting, or not supporting the armed forces of their host country?
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 16, 2009 15:05:16 GMT -5
I think anyone who takes on a service that endangers his own life is worthy of honor - and thanks. I even thank the policeman who gives me a ticket!. A thankful heart shows itself in giving thanks to men as well to God. Stephen, cannot you say I thank God for you and mean it? Whether you agree with the politics or not? The man who serves his country because he loves the liberty God has given him, has a heart God is working upon. We ought to encourage them.
Allyn, is that a sign used by the deaf to convey thanks? Seems to be a great way to show thanks if they might know what it means. I usually just salute!
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 16, 2009 15:58:42 GMT -5
I think anyone who takes on a service that endangers his own life is worthy of honor - and thanks. I even thank the policeman who gives me a ticket!. A thankful heart shows itself in giving thanks to men as well to God. Stephen, cannot you say I thank God for you and mean it? Whether you agree with the politics or not? The man who serves his country because he loves the liberty God has given him, has a heart God is working upon. We ought to encourage them. Allyn, is that a sign used by the deaf to convey thanks? Seems to be a great way to show thanks if they might know what it means. I usually just salute! Hi Robyn, I certainly meant no disrespect was to be given to those in the armed forces. I actually have quite a few friends that are policemen and firemen, and family and friends that have served at one time in the military. The subject of soldiers is a touchy one in this country today, especially in Christianity. Almost every family has someone who has served, so to make any remarks which question the integrity of being a soldier implies the accuser is unpatriotic or un-Christian. I know you haven't done that. Maybe if someone want to start a thread on the biblical response to the armed forces, soldiering, or war, etc, then we take this this farther. I don't want to hijack this thread (which my previous comment may have done), which Allyn's first post is more about the hand signal for thank you. Steve |
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Post by Allyn on Aug 16, 2009 16:30:14 GMT -5
I think anyone who takes on a service that endangers his own life is worthy of honor - and thanks. I even thank the policeman who gives me a ticket!. A thankful heart shows itself in giving thanks to men as well to God. Stephen, cannot you say I thank God for you and mean it? Whether you agree with the politics or not? The man who serves his country because he loves the liberty God has given him, has a heart God is working upon. We ought to encourage them. Allyn, is that a sign used by the deaf to convey thanks? Seems to be a great way to show thanks if they might know what it means. I usually just salute! Hi Robin, Steve and Bev, Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I happen to agree with Robin. Last month when I was in the busy Atlanta airport I passed dozens of military people and one sat behind me in flight. I thought to myself how good it is to have people willing to do what they do and it doesn't even have to mean I agree with the politics involved. This salute would have been a great thing for me to honor them with and I wish I had known it earlier. I will always use it now. |
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Post by Allyn on Aug 16, 2009 16:32:27 GMT -5
I think anyone who takes on a service that endangers his own life is worthy of honor - and thanks. I even thank the policeman who gives me a ticket!. A thankful heart shows itself in giving thanks to men as well to God. Stephen, cannot you say I thank God for you and mean it? Whether you agree with the politics or not? The man who serves his country because he loves the liberty God has given him, has a heart God is working upon. We ought to encourage them. Allyn, is that a sign used by the deaf to convey thanks? Seems to be a great way to show thanks if they might know what it means. I usually just salute! Hi Robyn, I certainly meant no disrespect was to be given to those in the armed forces. I actually have quite a few friends that are policemen and firemen, and family and friends that have served at one time in the military. The subject of soldiers is a touchy one in this country today, especially in Christianity. Almost every family has someone who has served, so to make any remarks which question the integrity of being a soldier implies the accuser is unpatriotic or un-Christian. I know you haven't done that. Maybe if someone want to start a thread on the biblical response to the armed forces, soldiering, or war, etc, then we take this this farther. I don't want to hijack this thread (which my previous comment may have done), which Allyn's first post is more about the hand signal for thank you. Steve Steve, this would be a good place to discuss the military facet of our society if you want to. I have some strong views myself. |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 16, 2009 18:14:01 GMT -5
Hi Robyn, I certainly meant no disrespect was to be given to those in the armed forces. I actually have quite a few friends that are policemen and firemen, and family and friends that have served at one time in the military. The subject of soldiers is a touchy one in this country today, especially in Christianity. Almost every family has someone who has served, so to make any remarks which question the integrity of being a soldier implies the accuser is unpatriotic or un-Christian. I know you haven't done that. Maybe if someone want to start a thread on the biblical response to the armed forces, soldiering, or war, etc, then we take this this farther. I don't want to hijack this thread (which my previous comment may have done), which Allyn's first post is more about the hand signal for thank you. Steve Steve, this would be a good place to discuss the military facet of our society if you want to. I have some strong views myself. Hi Allyn, Okay, if you say this is the place, then I think my question in my first post would probably be a good start to this discussion. I certainly have no grudge or beef here on this subject, I just think the viewpoint of many Christians today on the military, especially the American military is held captive to the values and norms of western culture. Much like the dispensationalists have captured most of western Christianity with end times prophecy. I believe that if we strip away those traditions and use only scripture our viewpoint would change, much like it did for me with preterism. Does the New Testament provide for Christians answers to supporting, or not supporting the armed forces of their host country? Your answer doesn't have to be all inclusive for every possible scenario. Just pick one or two and we can go from there, just to make it easier and not as confusing. If that question above is too generic, maybe someone can come up with another. Thanks Steve |
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Post by Allyn on Aug 16, 2009 18:54:12 GMT -5
Me too.
I think I know what you mean but not sure. Wars today are certainly more political and oil related then the war of being overrun by those who wish to take our freedom. The war against terrorism in Afghanistan is somewhat closer to what it is said to be about, but it seems that at some point enough is enough.
Give me an example of a host country. Do you mean like in Iran?
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 16, 2009 18:57:41 GMT -5
By example of a host country I mean any country that a Christian may reside in.
Iran, US, Russia, China, etc.
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Post by Allyn on Aug 16, 2009 20:10:16 GMT -5
I think we are allowed by God as Christians to be in the military and to fight if necessary, however I do have some restrictions for myself in that area.
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 16, 2009 20:57:28 GMT -5
I think we are allowed by God as Christians to be in the military and to fight if necessary, however I do have some restrictions for myself in that area. Allyn, Sorry for not getting back so soon. Please explain those allowances and your restrictions. Thanks. |
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Post by Allyn on Aug 16, 2009 21:39:47 GMT -5
I think we are allowed by God as Christians to be in the military and to fight if necessary, however I do have some restrictions for myself in that area. Allyn, Sorry for not getting back so soon. Please explain those allowances and your restrictions. Thanks. That's ok, we're not on a time schedule. I think the principle factor allowing a Christian to be involved in the military is the fact that we are commanded to obey the rulers of the government we are under. I believe strongly that this includes being prepared to defend or otherwise serve our country in the manner necessary. In the USA we are allowed to be a conscientious objector when it comes to avoiding certain factors that go against conscience and or religion. Personally I would have a hard time going to battle against any country that had a large Christian presence within its populace. The reason is because I could not take a shot at another person who just might be a brother in Christ but just happens to be subject to the military requirements. On the other hand I could, if I had to, fight for the people of my nation against a people whose aim it is to destroy life and liberty (such as Islamic terrorists). It would be a good bet that they are not a brother in Christ. I am not advocating killing at all, but I do think certain human obligations are in force while we are enjoying abundant life of this earth we live on. |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 17, 2009 6:07:20 GMT -5
Good morning Allyn.
I believe the verse you are talking about is Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
I have to believe that Paul was not advocating joining the military and, as you say, possibly killing another believer. Wherever the government and God clash, we are supposed to obey God. Jesus was very clear about taking up the sword. New believers left the Roman army and many of them paid with their lives for their faith since they were no longer able to take a life. The early church martyrs did not go to battle with their enemies before they perished. They willingly obeyed Jesus' command to harm no one.
As far as terrorism is concerned, if the US stopped telling others how to live and removed themselves from their countries, terrorism would end. Terrorism is the result of continued oppression, theft, and murder of another persons family and friends. Take away someones future and hope, and they'll do anything to get it back.
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Post by Allyn on Aug 17, 2009 7:12:25 GMT -5
I can't disagree with any of your points, Steve. We are where we are at and it is up to each person to judge how he will act when confronted with the decision. You and I are over the age limit for service. I never was in the military and was concerned that I would have been called up during the VN conflict. I was given a deferment because I was the only son for my mother and she was alone. But I was also young and not too much a self-confident man that I would have just followed orders.
We are to work out our own salvation and if a person refused to be drafted, lets say even though there is no draft today, then that person should be willing to go to prison for it. Instead what we saw were men running to Canada to escape. I don't believe that was right either.
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 17, 2009 7:52:43 GMT -5
I missed Vietnam by a couple of years, but was worried. From what I know now I think I would have either headed north or claimed CO. I not only have respect for the men who went unwillingly to Vietnam, but I also understand those who said no.
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Post by Allyn on Aug 17, 2009 8:07:20 GMT -5
I missed Vietnam by a couple of years, but was worried. From what I know now I think I would have either headed north or claimed CO. I not only have respect for the men who went unwillingly to Vietnam, but I also understand those who said no. Off and on over the years I have mulled this over in my mind. I have a deep patriotic mindset. I have emotional reactions to patriotic things just as I do concerning the saving grace of God.These things are either embed in me or I was raised that way. Either way I am content with it. I do wonder what our world would be like today if the US had not been drawn into a war with Japan or if we had not involved ourselves with the war with Germany. We certainly do have an impact on our future and I just think about that at times. All of our personal choices are the same way. Some choices seem bad at first but then the whole outcome was either an intervention by God or the choice was the right one after all. I have examples in my own life. All in all I think we just have to do the best we can and take whatever that comes from it. If I was today called to fight for my family I know I would but then it would not be a military action probably. I would die in place of anyone of my family members and protect them in anyway it required. Is that so much different from a military man? |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 17, 2009 9:24:46 GMT -5
I've had a hard time with this teaching as well.
In John 13:15 Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Laying down your life to save another does not mean taking a life in the process. Jesus was very clear about taking up the sword. I think the military man is in mind as well as the layperson when Jesus said this for those who would follow Him. Would I be able to be obedient to the Lord and not pick up a weapon if my family was being hurt? I don't know, my emotions sometime rule, but Jesus is silent on that matter, but not silent on hurting another man. Jesus doesn't say it would be easy. And it wouldn't be.
I think our example is the early church, and the apostles. I have to believe that they saw their family members and friends being killed before their eyes, yet they somehow, must have come to the conclusion that obedience to Jesus and the advancment of His kingdom was more important than their own personal feelings and comfort.
Again, this is a difficult subject, but is the Christian immune from very clear commands from the Lord if they happened to choose to join the military, whose purpose main purpose is to kill others.
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Post by Allyn on Aug 17, 2009 10:06:08 GMT -5
I've had a hard time with this teaching as well. In John 13:15 Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Laying down your life to save another does not mean taking a life in the process. Jesus was very clear about taking up the sword. I think the military man is in mind as well as the layperson when Jesus said this for those who would follow Him. Would I be able to be obedient to the Lord and not pick up a weapon if my family was being hurt? I don't know, my emotions sometime rule, but Jesus is silent on that matter, but not silent on hurting another man. Jesus doesn't say it would be easy. And it wouldn't be. I think our example is the early church, and the apostles. I have to believe that they saw their family members and friends being killed before their eyes, yet they somehow, must have come to the conclusion that obedience to Jesus and the advancment of His kingdom was more important than their own personal feelings and comfort. Again, this is a difficult subject, but is the Christian immune from very clear commands from the Lord if they happened to choose to join the military, whose purpose main purpose is to kill others. Killing is done in many ways. There is also just wishing to harm one is an act of doing it in NT teaching from Christ. The OT says there is a time for war and a time for peace. I know, that's the OT, but it still seems to ring true today. I am against killing but would I let my daughter die or stop the man trying to kill her by the only way I could at the time? I choose the latter. Not every incident would mean I would be able to lay down my life for her. It may require his life over hers (just examples of course). It is a christian issue to be sure. Can we explore it further? |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 17, 2009 11:44:58 GMT -5
I've had a hard time with this teaching as well. In John 13:15 Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Laying down your life to save another does not mean taking a life in the process. Jesus was very clear about taking up the sword. I think the military man is in mind as well as the layperson when Jesus said this for those who would follow Him. Would I be able to be obedient to the Lord and not pick up a weapon if my family was being hurt? I don't know, my emotions sometime rule, but Jesus is silent on that matter, but not silent on hurting another man. Jesus doesn't say it would be easy. And it wouldn't be. I think our example is the early church, and the apostles. I have to believe that they saw their family members and friends being killed before their eyes, yet they somehow, must have come to the conclusion that obedience to Jesus and the advancment of His kingdom was more important than their own personal feelings and comfort. Again, this is a difficult subject, but is the Christian immune from very clear commands from the Lord if they happened to choose to join the military, whose purpose main purpose is to kill others. Killing is done in many ways. There is also just wishing to harm one is an act of doing it in NT teaching from Christ. The OT says there is a time for war and a time for peace. I know, that's the OT, but it still seems to ring true today. I am against killing but would I let my daughter die or stop the man trying to kill her by the only way I could at the time? I choose the latter. Not every incident would mean I would be able to lay down my life for her. It may require his life over hers (just examples of course). It is a christian issue to be sure. Can we explore it further? I'd love to. Ask away here or start another thread. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 17, 2009 13:30:08 GMT -5
Stephen wrote:
There was a very specific application for those instructions given to the early church when all the remnant had not been reached with the gospel yet, and the Jews were persecuting the saints. And also because the glory of the Church had not yet been revealed to the world. This was for their testimony that they would have in that day, as well as for their own protection from the wrath of God that was coming upon those men marked for perdition. They were to be exampling the mercy of God to those men and their faith in the testimony of Christ - as have all the martyrs for Christ who laid down their lives.
The NT also says that those who take up the sword would die by the sword - in that day. But I have heard quite a few testimonies from Christian soldiers in the battlefield of bringing men who were dying to the Lord. And even helping their enemies. Also of the valiant attempts to save men's lives under fire. Mercy and compassion is not excluded in time of war. And perhaps is needed even more so in that venue for a testimony to Christ. Our own death however ought to never be a deterrent for doing good.
And because there are wicked men in the world, sometimes war is a necessary means to bring their numbers down; so we ought not to automatically assume war is unable to be used for God's good purpose. Which is always so that righteousness & peace can prevail in the earth.
Israel's war with her Arab neighbors has the potential of bringing a nuclear war upon the world. And that would be far more devasting to us all if good men do nothing about it. Certainly we wouldn't want the apostates making all those important decisions without godly men enjoining God's help in the matter!
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 17, 2009 20:41:57 GMT -5
Stephen wrote: There was a very specific application for those instructions given to the early church when all the remnant had not been reached with the gospel yet, and the Jews were persecuting the saints. And also because the glory of the Church had not yet been revealed to the world. This was for their testimony that they would have in that day, as well as for their own protection from the wrath of God that was coming upon those men marked for perdition. They were to be exampling the mercy of God to those men and their faith in the testimony of Christ - as have all the martyrs for Christ who laid down their lives. The NT also says that those who take up the sword would die by the sword - in that day. But I have heard quite a few testimonies from Christian soldiers in the battlefield of bringing men who were dying to the Lord. And even helping their enemies. Also of the valiant attempts to save men's lives under fire. Mercy and compassion is not excluded in time of war. And perhaps is needed even more so in that venue for a testimony to Christ. Our own death however ought to never be a deterrent for doing good. And because there are wicked men in the world, sometimes war is a necessary means to bring their numbers down; so we ought not to automatically assume war is unable to be used for God's good purpose. Which is always so that righteousness & peace can prevail in the earth. Israel's war with her Arab neighbors has the potential of bringing a nuclear war upon the world. And that would be far more devasting to us all if good men do nothing about it. Certainly we wouldn't want the apostates making all those important decisions without godly men enjoining God's help in the matter! Good evening Robin, Boy, I certainly don't have all the answers on this, nor would I assume to. You've given me a few things to ponder, but . . . As far as those who "take up the sword would die by the sword" being over, I would disagree that it is "only" for that particuliar time. I believe that the statement by Jesus is not just a physical end of life consequence to shedding blood, but mental and spiritual too. David may have been a man after God's own heart, but he killed his ten thousands and he was tormented throughout his life with his rule, family, and relationship with God. While he didn't lose his faith, the Psalms and writings about his life seemed to be filled with much anguish and grief. For many years I was told it was because of his adultrey. Today I doubt that. Consider the vets of all wars, many of them coming back with tremendous mental and spiritual injuries. The Vietnam vet comes to mind. We're just finding out recently of the quiet, burning inside of the WW2 vets, never talking about the horrors of that war and it's eating many them up inside. American Christians killing German Christians. That is insane. You mentioned testimonies from the battlefield. . . My Uncle Pete, (the only believing uncle on my wife's side who actually got saved in a "real bomb-crater conversion")a very successful man, who, before he died a couple of years ago finally talked to his wife and kids about his service on an island in WW2 and how it troubled him his entire life. But I am conflicted tremendously on Christians going to battle. The entire spirit of Christianity is one of peace. Please consider these verses, Have peace one with another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.
Avenge not yourselves. - If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink. - Recompense to no man evil for evil. - Overcome evil with good.
Walk with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love.
Be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another; love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous, not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing.
Be at peace among yourselves. See that none render evil for evil to any man. - God hath called us to peace.
Follow after love, patience, meekness. - Be gentle, showing all meekness unto all men. - Live in peace.
Lay aside all malice. - Put off anger, wrath, malice. - Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.It is impossible for a believer to repeat these verses, say the he believes them with all of his heart, and then joins the military, trains to kill and fight for the goals and purposes of his country, which for the most part are always at odds with the goals and aims of the kingdom of God? How does one "Be gentle, showing all meekness unto all men with an M16?" If we believe that we can say, I believe this, yet now go to battle, then the verses mean nothing. If the Lord says don't do it, but I continually do, what does that make me? According to 1John 2:4, He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.Kind of reminds me of the signature psychomike used to have over at Steve Gregg's forum. "Soon means later, . . . . . . . at hand means thousands of years in the future. (I forgot some of it, maybe he can refresh my memory on this one) But the point is these words have no meaning anymore if we don't take them exactly as they are. Sorry for the length and my rambling . . . Steve |
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Post by Allyn on Aug 18, 2009 7:28:20 GMT -5
Excellent verses Steve  One of the thoughts I keep coming back to whenever I think of the Christians responsibility in these kind of matters is just how far should one go in trying to obey the principals and commands of Christ in these situations. Just what is the lowest common denominator? The government runs on money through taxes and trade - so what is the Christian to do or not do when it comes down to this? Should I pay taxes to support a military? Should I pay taxes to support abortion? Should I pay taxes to support my state that has the death penalty? How far down to the core beginnings are we obligated to God in theses matters? |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 18, 2009 11:59:33 GMT -5
Excellent verses Steve One of the thoughts I keep coming back to whenever I think of the Christians responsibility in these kind of matters is just how far should one go in trying to obey the principals and commands of Christ in these situations. Just what is the lowest common denominator? The government runs on money through taxes and trade - so what is the Christian to do or not do when it comes down to this? Should I pay taxes to support a military? Should I pay taxes to support abortion? Should I pay taxes to support my state that has the death penalty? How far down to the core beginnings are we obligated to God in theses matters? Hi Allyn. Tough questions. I think we're no different than those in Jesus' day. We hate paying taxes because we know that money supports things we despise. I'm sure Jesus and Paul were not in favor of where the money collected for Rome was being spent. Probably the very list you just mentioned. Yet they didn't bring those subjects up. They said just pay it if you owe it. So from what I see, the argument is already been settled on high. Taxes, that is. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 18, 2009 12:36:39 GMT -5
Hi Stephen,
I suppose as long as military service is voluntary, a Christian needn't choose that. Personally, I consider prayer a more powerful weapon than an M16 any day. If the draft were to come back though, there was always the contientous objecter option to choose, so that one can serve in a non-combative way.
I do agree that David being a man with blood on his hands is what brought the curse on his family. But we are not under the curse of the law.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Unfortunately though, not all men follow this rule. And sometimes war is the only thing that can restore peace. Which means we should make every effort to be peacemakers.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
But neither should we forget that our Lord is the Lord of Hosts, the Captain of our salvation and of us His army. And the blood of His enemies is on His clothes.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Its a tough call for sure, which I really have no valid opinion to give of what a man might be called to do, when I will never have to face such a decision as a woman.
Edit: But still I have to wonder if we should expect the non-Christian to lay down his life for us? I suspect the scriptures that speak of peace are not dealing with wartime, since that has always been common to man in the earth.
The early church was however called to be a special witness, and they were not to respond in kind to their accusers who were bringing Rome down upon their own heads by their seditions. The reason being so that the blame could fall squarely upon those who did cause it.
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Post by Allyn on Aug 18, 2009 13:07:12 GMT -5
Excellent verses Steve One of the thoughts I keep coming back to whenever I think of the Christians responsibility in these kind of matters is just how far should one go in trying to obey the principals and commands of Christ in these situations. Just what is the lowest common denominator? The government runs on money through taxes and trade - so what is the Christian to do or not do when it comes down to this? Should I pay taxes to support a military? Should I pay taxes to support abortion? Should I pay taxes to support my state that has the death penalty? How far down to the core beginnings are we obligated to God in theses matters?
Tough questions. I think we're no different than those in Jesus' day. We hate paying taxes because we know that money supports things we despise. I'm sure Jesus and Paul were not in favor of where the money collected for Rome was being spent. Probably the very list you just mentioned. Yet they didn't bring those subjects up. They said just pay it if you owe it. So from what I see, the argument is already been settled on high. Taxes, that is.I have to wonder though when Jesus asked those who tried to trip Him up whose image is on the coin if He was actually saying that if you choose to be under a system by using its currency then you should be willing to pay back in taxes because you use that system? Who of us can actually do that today? But if we refuse to pay taxes because we don't accept certain uses for the tax monies then we must also be ready to be under the ruling authorities who just may throw a person in jail for not paying. The same goes for refusal to fight in a battle when you are in the armed service. I guess what I am saying is or maybe asking is who of us are willing to take our convictions that far? Don't we all give in and just do some of the things we object to just to stay out of trouble or maybe because its just easier? |
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Post by Paul Kelly on Aug 19, 2009 15:41:31 GMT -5
Interesting post Steve. One thing that I can't seem to reconcile in my own mind is this idea of killing my brother in Christ. It's nice to think you're fighting some faceless, evil government. But the reality of the situation is, more often than not, you're killing the common man. Maybe unbelievers. Maybe believers. That I find very hard to reconcile with a gospel of peace, loving your fellow man and loving your enemy.
Paul
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Post by Once4all on Aug 22, 2009 10:54:50 GMT -5
From a preterist viewpoint, I don't see how Christians can support or be involved in war. The "last days" came in the 1st century. Peter confirmed that at Pentecost. Isaiah spoke of the last days in Isaiah 2. In Isaiah 2:4, he prophesied that "nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war." Those aren't pagan nations who will not war, but those of the pagan nations, Gentiles, who "go up to the mountain of Yahweh, to the house of the God of Jacob" (Isaiah 2:3).
Those who enter the kingdom of God "will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks." All of those verses that Steve quoted go hand-in-hand with the idea that "never again will they learn war."
Have peace one with another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.
Avenge not yourselves. - If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink. - Recompense to no man evil for evil. - Overcome evil with good.
Walk with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love.
Be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another; love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous, not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing.
Be at peace among yourselves. See that none render evil for evil to any man. - God hath called us to peace.
Follow after love, patience, meekness. - Be gentle, showing all meekness unto all men. - Live in peace.
Lay aside all malice. - Put off anger, wrath, malice. - Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
Bev
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Post by Allyn on Aug 22, 2009 12:49:56 GMT -5
From a preterist viewpoint, I don't see how Christians can support or be involved in war. The "last days" came in the 1st century. Peter confirmed that at Pentecost. Isaiah spoke of the last days in Isaiah 2. In Isaiah 2:4, he prophesied that "nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war." Those aren't pagan nations who will not war, but those of the pagan nations, Gentiles, who "go up to the mountain of Yahweh, to the house of the God of Jacob" (Isaiah 2:3). Those who enter the kingdom of God "will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks." All of those verses that Steve quoted go hand-in-hand with the idea that "never again will they learn war." Have peace one with another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.
Avenge not yourselves. - If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink. - Recompense to no man evil for evil. - Overcome evil with good.
Walk with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love.
Be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another; love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous, not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing.
Be at peace among yourselves. See that none render evil for evil to any man. - God hath called us to peace.
Follow after love, patience, meekness. - Be gentle, showing all meekness unto all men. - Live in peace.
Lay aside all malice. - Put off anger, wrath, malice. - Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.Bev Bev, I can and do agree that we Christians should in attitude and action be set apart from the ways of the world. Thanks for your insight. Forgive me for asking and if it is so or not I do not mean anything by it except that it might be ironic, but aren't you affiliated or retired from some part of the army? I thought you mentioned that once. |
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Post by Once4all on Aug 22, 2009 13:49:16 GMT -5
From a preterist viewpoint, I don't see how Christians can support or be involved in war. The "last days" came in the 1st century. Peter confirmed that at Pentecost. Isaiah spoke of the last days in Isaiah 2. In Isaiah 2:4, he prophesied that "nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war." Those aren't pagan nations who will not war, but those of the pagan nations, Gentiles, who "go up to the mountain of Yahweh, to the house of the God of Jacob" (Isaiah 2:3). Those who enter the kingdom of God "will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks." All of those verses that Steve quoted go hand-in-hand with the idea that "never again will they learn war." Have peace one with another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.
Avenge not yourselves. - If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink. - Recompense to no man evil for evil. - Overcome evil with good.
Walk with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love.
Be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another; love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous, not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing.
Be at peace among yourselves. See that none render evil for evil to any man. - God hath called us to peace.
Follow after love, patience, meekness. - Be gentle, showing all meekness unto all men. - Live in peace.
Lay aside all malice. - Put off anger, wrath, malice. - Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.Bev Bev, I can and do agree that we Christians should in attitude and action be set apart from the ways of the world. Thanks for your insight. Forgive me for asking and if it is so or not I do not mean anything by it except that it might be ironic, but aren't you affiliated or retired from some part of the army? I thought you mentioned that once. Yes, I retired in April with 34 years of civilian service with the U.S. Army. Bev |
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