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Post by Allyn on Aug 22, 2009 14:00:31 GMT -5
Bev, I can and do agree that we Christians should in attitude and action be set apart from the ways of the world. Thanks for your insight. Forgive me for asking and if it is so or not I do not mean anything by it except that it might be ironic, but aren't you affiliated or retired from some part of the army? I thought you mentioned that once. Yes, I retired in April with 34 years of civilian service with the U.S. Army. Bev   |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Nov 24, 2009 21:59:54 GMT -5
Good evening everyone.
Sorry for resurrecting this thread again, but the past few weeks my head has been spinning concerning the dreadful violence going on in the world, and along with reading some of our gifted writers on this site defending and excelling in the promotion of preterism, not only here but on other sites as well. Something clicked and a light went on. Just like it did over at CARM when Noble was talking about Jesus' response to Martha before He brought back Lazurus from death. So with all that running through my mind I'd like to share this and ask . . .
If preterism is in fact correct, and I believe it is, then why do we not believe the fulfillment of these verses in the book of Isaiah to be pertaining to us? Are we or are we not living in the New Heavens and Earth?
Aren't these verses speaking of the last days and the glorious results of the the parousia?
Isaiah 2:4 They shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Again, he also says concerning the same time frame,
Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
and
Isaiah 60:19
Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
These can't be just spiritual fulfillments. And if they are then they have to have an outward manifestation in the life of all who believe. According to these verses, in the New Heavens and Earth, war is to be abolished or ended. According to these verses God said that his will is for his followers "will not" go to war, as even the implements of war will not be found in the hands of followers. (I'm not talking about hunting here) And this is the time. Now. The New Heavens and New Earth according to the Lord demand that is what is to happen. Or maybe another question, By what principles, or what religion will this be fulfilled if not Christianity? And by us first, Christians.
When it says "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore" we believe that "nation" means the people within those nations who have now been illuminated with the Gospel, not the governments of the world. Christianity not only is supposed to produce universal peace within, but by our actions it is to be outward also. And that means us. Preterists should (if we really believe "all has been fulfilled") should use these verses to also help make our case by letting them know that we do not fight or support any kind of war anymore. Christians do not and cannot go to war, ever, anymore, never.
I think this topic is crucial to the preterist debate. We are trying to prove that "all has been fulfilled." If that is so, then why hasn't this happened yet, especially for those of us who claim to follow Him and believe, and say "it is finished." Sadly, most of evangelical Christianity supports not only the current conflicts taking place in the middle east, but most of the wars previous for this country, Revolutionary War, WW1 or WW2, the good war. "The good war?" Why do we not believe Isaiah when he says that it will be Christianity that will accomplish this. And if not now and through us, then when. Soon? (pun intended) Or will "another return" make this happen?
Justin Martyr wrote, concerning Isaiah 2:4 . . . the prophecy is fulfilled, you have good reason to believe, for we, who in times past killed one another, do not now fight with our enemies.
He had to have been a preterist.
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Post by Once4all on Nov 24, 2009 23:40:46 GMT -5
AMEN AMEN and AMEN!  You are so right, brother. I'm keeping this post. Bev Good evening everyone. Sorry for resurrecting this thread again, but the past few weeks my head has been spinning concerning the dreadful violence going on in the world, and along with reading some of our gifted writers on this site defending and excelling in the promotion of preterism, not only here but on other sites as well. Something clicked and a light went on. Just like it did over at CARM when Noble was talking about Jesus' response to Martha before He brought back Lazurus from death. So with all that running through my mind I'd like to share this and ask . . . If preterism is in fact correct, and I believe it is, then why do we not believe the fulfillment of these verses in the book of Isaiah to be pertaining to us? Are we or are we not living in the New Heavens and Earth? Aren't these verses speaking of the last days and the glorious results of the the parousia? Isaiah 2:4 They shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Again, he also says concerning the same time frame, Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. and Isaiah 60:19 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. These can't be just spiritual fulfillments. And if they are then they have to have an outward manifestation in the life of all who believe. According to these verses, in the New Heavens and Earth, war is to be abolished or ended. According to these verses God said that his will is for his followers "will not" go to war, as even the implements of war will not be found in the hands of followers. (I'm not talking about hunting here) And this is the time. Now. The New Heavens and New Earth according to the Lord demand that is what is to happen. Or maybe another question, By what principles, or what religion will this be fulfilled if not Christianity? And by us first, Christians. When it says "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore" we believe that "nation" means the people within those nations who have now been illuminated with the Gospel, not the governments of the world. Christianity not only is supposed to produce universal peace within, but by our actions it is to be outward also. And that means us. Preterists should (if we really believe "all has been fulfilled") should use these verses to also help make our case by letting them know that we do not fight or support any kind of war anymore. Christians do not and cannot go to war, ever, anymore, never. I think this topic is crucial to the preterist debate. We are trying to prove that "all has been fulfilled." If that is so, then why hasn't this happened yet, especially for those of us who claim to follow Him and believe, and say "it is finished." Sadly, most of evangelical Christianity supports not only the current conflicts taking place in the middle east, but most of the wars previous for this country, Revolutionary War, WW1 or WW2, the good war. "The good war?" Why do we not believe Isaiah when he says that it will be Christianity that will accomplish this. And if not now and through us, then when. Soon? (pun intended) Or will "another return" make this happen? Justin Martyr wrote, concerning Isaiah 2:4 . . . the prophecy is fulfilled, you have good reason to believe, for we, who in times past killed one another, do not now fight with our enemies.He had to have been a preterist. |
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Post by Allyn on Nov 25, 2009 9:20:10 GMT -5
Steve, you make some good points. I was thinking just yesterday, after hearing that Obama was probably going to send in another 34 thousand troops, just when does it all end (this warring between people)? I was thinking that if left up to the present leaders of the world that it would never end but if left up to the people who actually do the fighting then we can make it stop.
Preterism should pay a large role in this and it must accompany the principle that the whole earth will be filled with the kingdom of God. We need to (and we are) spread this word of peace as methodicaly as possible in every generation. We, right now, are the sowers of good seed and I pray that the likes of some people we know of will find they have been fighting against God rather than for Him.
This is a crucial topic and I believe we must address it head on.
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Post by Once4all on Nov 25, 2009 15:33:29 GMT -5
But it is not our job to try to change the mindset of the kingdoms of the world, but rather to spread the message about the kingdom of God, that they would become citizens.
I'm reminded of the devil's temptation to Jesus of offering him all the kingdoms of the world. Jesus' response was that "It is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'" We are not to seek to conquer the kingdoms of the world, but to serve God His way while we are in this world, as Jesus did.
Bev
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Post by Allyn on Nov 25, 2009 16:51:22 GMT -5
But it is not our job to try to change the mindset of the kingdoms of the world, but rather to spread the message about the kingdom of God, that they would become citizens. I'm reminded of the devil's temptation to Jesus of offering him all the kingdoms of the world. Jesus' response was that "It is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'" We are not to seek to conquer the kingdoms of the world, but to serve God His way while we are in this world, as Jesus did. Bev Maybe my point got lost, but what I mean is that our jobs as christians is to share the good news of Jesus Christ. Not provoke to war as some Christians do. |
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Post by Once4all on Nov 25, 2009 18:05:12 GMT -5
Allyn, your point didn't get lost. I think we were saying the same thing in different ways. Sorry if my post came across as countering yours. That wasn't my intent.
Bev
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Post by Allyn on Nov 25, 2009 19:05:24 GMT -5
Allyn, your point didn't get lost. I think we were saying the same thing in different ways. Sorry if my post came across as countering yours. That wasn't my intent. Bev Thanks, Bev but it wasn't a problem with me. |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Nov 25, 2009 21:47:28 GMT -5
We, right now, are the sowers of good seed and I pray that the likes of some people we know of will find they have been fighting against God rather than for Him. This is a crucial topic and I believe we must address it head on. Absolutely Allyn. If the large right-wing, and left wing of the church of the world suddenly became disallutioned with the continued deception and guile of their respective governments and stepped back and said no more of our sons or daughters will give their lives for your wars the impact would be huge. Something tells me though, we will not see it in our lifetime. |
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Post by Allyn on Nov 25, 2009 22:08:23 GMT -5
We, right now, are the sowers of good seed and I pray that the likes of some people we know of will find they have been fighting against God rather than for Him. This is a crucial topic and I believe we must address it head on. Absolutely Allyn. If the large right-wing, and left wing of the church of the world suddenly became disallutioned with the continued deception and guile of their respective governments and stepped back and said no more of our sons or daughters will give their lives for your wars the impact would be huge. Something tells me though, we will not see it in our lifetime. Sometimes I wish they would get raptured |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Nov 25, 2009 22:20:35 GMT -5
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