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Post by mellontes on Feb 12, 2009 13:15:42 GMT -5
Sorry if I seem to be monopolizing the board, but I can't help it. Please pray for me. Maybe Allyn will suspend me...
Anway...I just wanted to know if we would be willing to supply our basic stand on the "rapture" in 39 words or less, just to know where some of us are coming from.
I have to go first because this is MY thread...nananana
I see the rapture as simply a change of covenants - from the old body to the new body in Christ. This occurs at 70 AD (or thereabouts) when the old covenant system and body was wiped off the map. Nobody goes anywhere, there are no physical changes to the human body, and life continues on the planet Earth.
I see the resurrection in much the same way when referring to the "body". Earthly body = old covenant people = children of the flesh. Spiritual body = new covenant people in Christ (the body of Christ) = children of the promise.
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Post by Sower on Feb 12, 2009 14:45:13 GMT -5
 I see the rapture, as the catching up of the dead and living saints to heaven at the coming/parousia of Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians. 15:51,52). Lady Sower~
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Post by mellontes on Feb 12, 2009 16:03:39 GMT -5
I see the rapture, as the catching up of the dead and living saints to heaven at the coming/parousia of Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians. 15:51,52). Lady Sower~ I'm not sure if you were being humorous. Everyone agrees with what you said - even dispensationalists. But as to how and when and what it means specifically is another matter entirely... |
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Post by Sower on Feb 12, 2009 16:39:27 GMT -5
I see the rapture, as the catching up of the dead and living saints to heaven at the coming/parousia of Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians. 15:51,52). Lady Sower~ I'm not sure if you were being humorous. Everyone agrees with what you said - even dispensationalists. But as to how and when and what it means specifically is another matter entirely... Oophs! Sorry Mellontes, I didn't mean to be humorous! I mistakenly thought you asked for personal opinions, rather than preterist stance. ;D Lady Sower~ |
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Post by mellontes on Feb 12, 2009 17:09:59 GMT -5
Oophs! Sorry Mellontes, I didn't mean to be humorous! I mistakenly thought you asked for personal opinions, rather than preterist stance. ;D Lady Sower~ So you were being humorous, huh? God will get you for that... Soooooooooo.....what is your personal stance exactly now that you know what I am looking for? Ted/Mellontes/TruthSeeker1959/sinner |
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Post by Sower on Feb 12, 2009 20:21:25 GMT -5
Hi Mellontes,
My first response was my personal stance! I believe it happened, AD70.
Noooooo...I'm not not being humorous!
Lady Sower~
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Post by mtymousie on Feb 12, 2009 20:24:26 GMT -5
I dont know if I can do this in 39 words or less.
I believe Paul was a true prophet and that his prophecy to the Thessalonians happened exactly as he said.
I also believe there is a point where we can overspiritualize something to the point that we wind up essentially denying what Paul told them they would see.
preteristmouse
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Post by mellontes on Feb 12, 2009 20:40:55 GMT -5
My observation is that Lady Sower and PreteristMouse would make great politicians!
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Post by mellontes on Feb 12, 2009 20:41:51 GMT -5
Hi Mellontes, My first response was my personal stance! I believe it happened, AD70. Noooooo...I'm not not being humorous! Lady Sower~ Do you believe like Ed Stevens, Kelly Birks, or me - because all three had different views... |
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Post by mtymousie on Feb 12, 2009 20:48:13 GMT -5
My observation is that Lady Sower and PreteristMouse would make great politicians! My observation is Lady Sower and I respectfully treated your question as sincere and thus gave our sincere answers to it. preteristmouse |
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Post by Sower on Feb 13, 2009 11:33:56 GMT -5
Hi Mellontes, Yes, Ed Stevens believe the first century christians expected to be caught up to heaven according to the words of Paul (1 Thessalonians 4:15,16; 1 Corinthians 15:51,52), and I also believe that. Not if he doesn't believe the first century (living) saints were caught up to heaven. Is he a partial or full preterist? I'm not sure of you view, but I don't think it's the same as mine.  Lady Sower~ |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Feb 13, 2009 12:23:24 GMT -5
I don't think one need spiritualize an event that concerns both the living and the dead, because such an event is spritual for those who are alive and remain (so). I don't find any other passages that promise a bodily ascension for the living to heaven - other than for Christ. But we do find similar passages where Paul & John were both "caught up" to heaven and observed things shown to them in that realm. For the living believers to be caught up into such a vision of what is transpiring with the resurrection of the dead, then it is the knowledge that these things have occurred which is the understanding being given them of their security now in union with Christ because the marriage of the Lamb has come according to the Lord's words to them about how they would know it.
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Post by Sower on Feb 13, 2009 13:21:34 GMT -5
These words of Paul would have to be spiritualized to leave the living saints on the earth...
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall 'descend' from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise: FIRST:
17 THEN 'we' which are alive and remain "shall be' caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The living saints expected to be 'caught up' to MEET the Lord in the air, and ever be with him in heaven.
Lady Sower~
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Post by Allyn on Feb 13, 2009 13:30:58 GMT -5
These words of Paul would have to be spiritualized to leave the living saints on the earth...
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall 'descend' from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise: FIRST:
17 THEN 'we' which are alive and remain "shall be' caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(The living saints expected to be "caught up' to MEET the Lord in).
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
That they would not be comforted with a spiritual fulfillment, can be ascertained by their disappointment when they heard that the resurrection was past...
2 Timothy 2:19 Who concerning the truth have errer, saying that the resurrection is past already and overthrow the faith of some.
Lady Sower~ I just simply cannot deny the inspired words. In my way of thinking it is impossible to legitamately take the words any other way but a physical literal event. |
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Post by Allyn on Feb 13, 2009 13:35:04 GMT -5
Sorry if I seem to be monopolizing the board, but I can't help it. Please pray for me. Maybe Allyn will suspend me...
Anway...I just wanted to know if we would be willing to supply our basic stand on the "rapture" in 39 words or less, just to know where some of us are coming from.
I have to go first because this is MY thread...nananana
I see the rapture as simply a change of covenants - from the old body to the new body in Christ. This occurs at 70 AD (or thereabouts) when the old covenant system and body was wiped off the map. Nobody goes anywhere, there are no physical changes to the human body, and life continues on the planet Earth.
I see the resurrection in much the same way when referring to the "body". Earthly body = old covenant people = children of the flesh. Spiritual body = new covenant people in Christ (the body of Christ) = children of the promise. If this was simply a covenantal event then where is the observance of the rapture that was anticipated by the readers of the Apostle Paul? It is just too precise to be anything other than an actual physical event - or what am I missing that would indicate otherwise? |
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Post by Allyn on Feb 13, 2009 13:48:21 GMT -5
I have to wonder how the Church at Philadelphia received this assurance if their hope would have only been through a promise that the new covenant would be their salvation from the hour of temptation?
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
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Post by mellontes on Feb 13, 2009 14:52:56 GMT -5
I have to wonder how the Church at Philadelphia received this assurance if their hope would have only been through a promise that the new covenant would be their salvation from the hour of temptation? Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Are you of the belief that the Christians were literally whisked away from the planet during this time - the Ed Stevens view? I believe they would be kept from the trial if they obeyed Christ's admonition to flee when they saw the abomination surround Jerusalem. I believe God allowed this flight to be possible. I also believe that many fled to Pella and this is why the Dead Sea scrolls exist... They were whisked away... unless the whisking away was to Pella |
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Post by Allyn on Feb 13, 2009 15:01:47 GMT -5
I have to wonder how the Church at Philadelphia received this assurance if their hope would have only been through a promise that the new covenant would be their salvation from the hour of temptation? Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
I believe they would be kept from the trial if they obeyed Christ's admonition to flee when they saw the abomination surround Jerusalem. I believe God allowed this flight to be possible. I also believe that many fled to Pella and this is why the Dead Sea scrolls exist... They were whisked away... unless the whisking away was to Pella I understand what Ed Stevens believes but even he had to make a brand new theory to explain the rapture for a time and place as 70AD. I am going to plead ignorant of really understanding how it happened but I do personally belive the Apostle that it occurred. |
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Post by mtymousie on Feb 13, 2009 21:38:19 GMT -5
Are you of the belief that the Christians were literally whisked away from the planet during this time - the Ed Stevens view? I believe they would be kept from the trial if they obeyed Christ's admonition to flee when they saw the abomination surround Jerusalem. I believe God allowed this flight to be possible. I also believe that many fled to Pella and this is why the Dead Sea scrolls exist... They were whisked away... unless the whisking away was to Pella As I said before, when I first met Ed there was an instant bond there. I believe that Jesus and Paul were true prophets and what they SAID would happen DID happen. I believe that IF those witnesses did NOT SEE what Jesus and Paul SAID they would SEE then they all died LOOKING UP in vain and every man since has no hope because we are following FALSE prophets. JMO, FULLpreteristmouse |
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Post by john14and9 on Feb 13, 2009 21:51:35 GMT -5
Are you of the belief that the Christians were literally whisked away from the planet during this time - the Ed Stevens view? I believe they would be kept from the trial if they obeyed Christ's admonition to flee when they saw the abomination surround Jerusalem. I believe God allowed this flight to be possible. I also believe that many fled to Pella and this is why the Dead Sea scrolls exist... They were whisked away... unless the whisking away was to Pella As I said before, when I first met Ed there was an instant bond there. I firmly believe that Jesus and Paul spoke TRUTH and what they SAID would happen DID happen. IF those witnesses did NOT SEE what Jesus and Paul SAID they would SEE then they all died LOOKING UP in vain and every man since has no hope because we are following FALSE prophets. FULLpreteristmouse Acts 1:9-11-And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. How was He taken or received? 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. I believe Jesus was taken "out of their site" just as it states I think there is even confusion among pret camps even about a so called rapture..The word "up" is not found in the original text of 1 Thess 4..to indicate a direction..one thing we prets do is compare scripture to scripture..and if you would take the time to look up at each time the word "caught"was used in the greek {harpazo] it never indicates a upward direction or being moved from a direction period..this is true bible hermeneutic by seeing how the same word is used elsewhere.. |
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Post by mtymousie on Feb 13, 2009 21:58:44 GMT -5
If Jesus was not "TAKEN UP" into the clouds, then WHY did the angels ask those witnesses why they were "GAZING UP"?
If Jesus was not going to return in the SAME MANNER then WHY did He say these words: "And THEN SHALL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. And WHEN these things begin to come to pass, THEN LOOK UP, AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS; for your redemption draweth nigh." (Luke 21:27-28)
FULLpreteristmouse
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Post by Sower on Feb 14, 2009 14:23:47 GMT -5
Acts 1:9-11-And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. How was He taken or received? 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. I believe Jesus was taken "out of their site" just as it states I think there is even confusion among pret camps even about a so called rapture..The word "up" is not found in the original text of 1 Thess 4..to indicate a direction..one thing we prets do is compare scripture to scripture..and if you would take the time to look up at each time the word "caught"was used in the greek {harpazo] it never indicates a upward direction or being moved from a direction period..this is true bible hermeneutic by seeing how the same word is used elsewhere.. John14and9, how can the living saints join together with the dead saints 'in' the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, except they 'ascend up' to the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:17)? Lady Sower~ |
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Post by john14and9 on Feb 14, 2009 23:11:36 GMT -5
Acts 1:9-11-And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. How was He taken or received? 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. I believe Jesus was taken "out of their site" just as it states I think there is even confusion among pret camps even about a so called rapture..The word "up" is not found in the original text of 1 Thess 4..to indicate a direction..one thing we prets do is compare scripture to scripture..and if you would take the time to look up at each time the word "caught"was used in the greek {harpazo] it never indicates a upward direction or being moved from a direction period..this is true bible hermeneutic by seeing how the same word is used elsewhere.. John14and9, how can the living saints join together with the dead saints 'in' the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, except they 'ascend up' to the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:17)? Lady Sower~ Sower..are you saying you believe it was a physical lifting off the ground for that 1st century church? Have you ever looked up the phrase "caught up"..it means absolutely nothing about a physical or even a spiritual direction going up..and also how about the word "air"..it does not mean the sky!..but rather the actual air we breath in front of our face..I am not greek scholar but if Paul wanted to teach about souls meeting Jesus in the sky He would have used another word for "sky" I believe Paul was using language that they were all to familiar with and here we in a western mindset do not or would not look or understand scripture like they did..just my thought |
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Post by john14and9 on Feb 14, 2009 23:18:40 GMT -5
If Jesus was not "TAKEN UP" into the clouds, then WHY did the angels ask those witnesses why they were "GAZING UP"? If Jesus was not going to return in the SAME MANNER then WHY did He say these words: "And THEN SHALL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. And WHEN these things begin to come to pass, THEN LOOK UP, AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS; for your redemption draweth nigh." (Luke 21:27-28) FULLpreteristmouse Wow..hard to believe I have to explain this to a preterist?? I believe the disciples SAW a physical post ressurected Jesus floating upward yes!..but I asked..when was He taken?..He was taken OUT OF THEIR SIGHT!..look at it real close.. The term-;And THEN SHALL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. is an expression of OT language and a clear reference to judgement!..wow again I am surprised I am even saying this here on this board..Jesus did tell his disciples to look up..I believe He was saying..PAY ATTENTION when you [disciples ] shall see all these things..what things?,,the things Jesus told them to look for..mainly Jerusalem being surrounded with Armies..then pay attention..your redemption draws nigh..I do not believe Jesus was saying a rapture was getting ready to occur..but a interruption in the severe persecution they were under going prior to the fall of Jerusalem..Jesus was saying..your deliverance is on the way!..I am going to check this main page again to see if I am really where I thought..lol |
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Post by Sower on Feb 15, 2009 17:30:36 GMT -5
Sower..are you saying you believe it was a physical lifting off the ground for that 1st century church? Yes! My focus is on the words 'caught up' (1 Thessalonians 4:17), the same words that Paul use here... 2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such a one "caught up" to the third heaven. 4 How that he was "caught up" into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. John 14and9, what are your thoughts when you read... Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was "caught up" unto God, and to his throne. Do think that's about Jesus being "taken up" into heaven (Acts 1:9-11), to the throne of God? Lady Sower~ |
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Post by john14and9 on Feb 15, 2009 22:31:06 GMT -5
Sower..are you saying you believe it was a physical lifting off the ground for that 1st century church? Yes! My focus is on the words 'caught up' (1 Thessalonians 4:17), the same words that Paul use here... 2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such a one "caught up" to the third heaven. 4 How that he was "caught up" into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. John 14and9, what are your thoughts when you read... Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was "caught up" unto God, and to his throne. Do think that's about Jesus being "taken up" into heaven (Acts 1:9-11), to the throne of God? Lady Sower~ Same thought Sower..caught up means to be "seized" it does not indicate a literal upward direction..least not in the original and besides Revelation is mostly symbolic anyway I do not think there is much in there to take as a "literal"meaning but that does not mean it cannot have literal meanings to that 1st century audience who understood what was said.. As far as Acts 1:9-11..yes..the disciples saw Jesus ascend up and was received out of their sight in a cloud..no denying that.. I do not lean towards Ed Stevens interpretation that the 1 st century saints were literally taken off this earth.I believe the OT saints were spiritually resurrected and those who were alive and remained experienced the granting of eternal life that was to come available after 70 ad.. |
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Post by Sower on Feb 17, 2009 15:36:51 GMT -5
Same thought Sower..caught up means to be "seized" it does not indicate a literal upward direction..least not in the original Why not? 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are ALIVE and remain 'shall be' CAUGHT UP together with them in the Clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Caught up, Greek harpazo, to "snatch away." The Symbolism relates to a truth. Exactly, I thought you would recognize it's relationship to the the truth symbolized in Revelation 12:5. ;D I don't lean toward it because of Ed Stevens interpretation, but because Paul said he was speaking BY the word of the Lord ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Paul got it directly from the Lord, and I believe what the Lord promised, he fulfilled! I believe the Lord descended from heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel, the trump of God, and the OT dead did rise first, and those alive were CAUGHT UP together with them in the air, to ever be with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Lady Sower~ |
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Post by john14and9 on Feb 17, 2009 22:42:12 GMT -5
Same thought Sower..caught up means to be "seized" it does not indicate a literal upward direction..least not in the original Why not? 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are ALIVE and remain 'shall be' CAUGHT UP together with them in the Clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Caught up, Greek harpazo, to "snatch away." The Symbolism relates to a truth. Exactly, I thought you recognize it's relationship to the the truth symbolized in Revelation 12:5. ;D I don't lean toward it because of Ed Stevens interpretation, but because Paul said he was speaking BY the word of the Lord ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Thus, Paul got it directly from the Lord. I believe what the Lord promised, he fulfilled! I believe the Lord descended from heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel, the trump of God, and the OT dead did rise first, and those alive were CAUGHT UP together with them in the air, to ever be with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Lady Sower~ Wow..lol..ok...you believe it was a "literal rapture" but never mind the word for caught up in the greek = Hazpazo..which the word is used at least 13 other times in the NT and the word by itself cannot be used to mean or indicate a direction of north,south,east,or west. I agree Paul had a "word from the Lord" but the Lord never taught a catching away unless perhaps I missed something? Matthew 24 is probably where most people get the "rapture"from [not saying you do] but most people in general do..It is interesting in the prayers of Jesus in John 17:15 He was praying for us and His disciples..here is what He prayed I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.. I find that interesting for Jesus to say this and then later teach Paul that He would one day "take them out of the world"? I by no means want to go against what you believe but I do want to challenge your thinking here..I am always willing to be open minded and listen to others in how they think. Peace |
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Post by Sower on Feb 17, 2009 23:40:03 GMT -5
Wow..lol..ok...you believe it was a "literal rapture" Yes! The direction of "caught up" is specified, as UP, not north, south, east, or west. You don't know everything that the Lord taught, only the things that's written. Paul said the words that he spoke (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) were BY the Lord, and I believe it. [QUOTE[ Matthew 24 is probably where most people get the "rapture"from [not saying you do] but most people in general do[/QUOTE] As previously stated I got it from 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, where apostle Paul, said that he got it BY the word of the Lord. Notice... John 17:18 But as thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I sent them into the world. Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. They were given the great commission, after which they would be received to heaven... Matthew 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will COME again, and receive you unto MYSELF; that where I am, there ye may be. Jesus promised his disciples that He would "personally" COME for them before they went through all the cities of Israel (Matthew 10:23), before they all died (Matthew 16:27,28). I believe he kept his word! Thanks, the feeling is mutual!  Lady Sower~ |
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Post by adhitthana on Feb 18, 2009 5:48:34 GMT -5
I think that those alive at the coming of Christ on clouds (70AD), continued to live on earth.
Paul wrote that the dead were to be raised immortal then those who were still alive. I dont think Paul meant immediately after, but just after.
I think the "then" means later on when they died
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