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Post by Allyn on Feb 20, 2009 15:42:04 GMT -5
I am sorry for using the word "childish" in an earlier post. That was uncalled for on my part. forgive me.
Please understand that, from what I have read, ALL who have posted thus far on this topic "believe" the Holy Scriptures. And therefore someone claiming that they "believe" what Paul said or what Jesus said when quoting Scripture, IMPLIES that the person of a different understanding does not "believe" it. Which is why I unfortunately got worked up and used the word "childish". Again I am sorry.
We all "believe" the Scriptures, we obviously have different understandings at this time. We all use words we wish we could take back and so I hope that those offended would accept your apology. |
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Post by Allyn on Feb 20, 2009 15:45:27 GMT -5
This is one of those kind of threads I hope to weigh in on, but this past week has been one of those you wouldn't wish on anyone. I'm not certain if I am able to add much but I would like to respond.
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Post by Sower on Feb 20, 2009 16:13:35 GMT -5
This is one of those kind of threads I hope to weigh in on, but this past week has been one of those you wouldn't wish on anyone. I'm not certain if I am able to add much but I would like to respond. We look forward to your response! Lady Sower~ |
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Post by douglas on Feb 20, 2009 16:21:41 GMT -5
"Paul was not a false prophet, and he did not hesitate to correct misinformation and error!
Lady Sower~"
Just a question..... Anybody on this post or forum for that matter that thinks Paul was a false prophet?
I sure don't think so, nor do I think anybody posting thinks that.
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Post by Sower on Feb 20, 2009 16:50:15 GMT -5
Again, IF those witnesses to the prophecy, who were CLEARLY expecting the Lord to APPEAR again within their lifetime, did not SEE Him APPEAR, then Jesus and Paul both failed the scriptural test of a prophet, folks. I believe that we can overspiritualize an event to the point where we actually make the Lord into a false prophet. Maybe, but I think there is a fairly good case to see things another way. www.preteristvision.org/questions/qa_apocalypticlanguage.html#subhead1Maybe, but I think a fairly good case is to see things the way Jesus described them... Matthew 24:31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER together "his elect" from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Except one believe his elect were only the dead, where was 'his' living elect gathered to, if not heaven?  Lady Sower |
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Post by Sower on Feb 20, 2009 17:11:21 GMT -5
"Paul was not a false prophet, and he did not hesitate to correct misinformation and error! Lady Sower~" Just a question..... Anybody on this post or forum for that matter that thinks Paul was a false prophet? I sure don't think so, nor do I think anybody posting thinks that. Douglas, I never said they did! Lady Sower~ |
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Post by mellontes on Feb 20, 2009 17:29:14 GMT -5
Hi Mtymousie, If that make us "childish" we're not alone. No doubt all the saints listening to Paul thought being "caught up" in the CLOUDS to meet the Lord in the air at his coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17), took it literally. I venture to say not a single one took it as spiritually, or figuratively meaning to "remain" on the ground. How Could they come to that conclusion, knowing that Paul was literally "caught up" to heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2,5)? I mean how do one get from knowing of Pauls's literal "catching up" to heaven, to thinking he was talking about a spiritual or figurative "remaining" on the earth. Paul was not a false prophet, and he did not hesitate to correct misinformation and error! Lady Sower~ Actually, if you are willing to pardon a slight correction, it wasn't Paul who was "caught up" to heaven, but another gentleman. There are some who believe that this man who was caught up was John the Revelator... |
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Post by Sower on Feb 20, 2009 17:38:31 GMT -5
Hi Mtymousie, If that make us "childish" we're not alone. No doubt all the saints listening to Paul thought being "caught up" in the CLOUDS to meet the Lord in the air at his coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17), took it literally. I venture to say not a single one took it as spiritually, or figuratively meaning to "remain" on the ground. How Could they come to that conclusion, knowing that Paul was literally "caught up" to heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2,5)? I mean how do one get from knowing of Pauls's literal "catching up" to heaven, to thinking he was talking about a spiritual or figurative "remaining" on the earth. Paul was not a false prophet, and he did not hesitate to correct misinformation and error! Lady Sower~ Actually, if you are willing to pardon a slight correction, it wasn't Paul who was "caught up" to heaven, but another gentleman. There are some who believe that this man who was caught up was John the Revelator... Thanks, for the correction! Paul KNEW a man in Christ, that was "caught up" to heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-5). Lady Sower~ |
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Post by douglas on Feb 20, 2009 18:12:20 GMT -5
Lady sower- I am sorry, but the way you convey your opinions in a discussion like this at times appears to me to be inflammatory against those who are trying to interact with you. Again, why make a statement like "Paul was not a false prophet" unless you think someone you are debating with might think that? Are you bringing new information to the table to talk about? Are you just affirming something we all hold to be true? Like Jesus is Lord!, Amen! What is the purpose of that statement in a debate about understanding the "rapture" that brings new light to our understanding? So basicly, I understood your statement of "Paul was not a false prophet" to say that you believe someone you are debating to believe the opposite. So yes, I believe you did say it. Maybe I am reading to much into your statement. *shrug* I must have, but I did want to point out how I am reading it, assuming I am not the only idiot. lol  |
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Post by Sower on Feb 20, 2009 20:29:03 GMT -5
Lady sower- I am sorry, but the way you convey your opinions in a discussion like this at times appears to me to be inflammatory against those who are trying to interact with you. Douglas, that was not my intention. ;D I say before the Lord that know my every thought, my "only" intention was to convey why I believe as I do. If you or anyone else were offended, I sincerely apologize!  Lady Sower~ |
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Post by adhitthana on Feb 20, 2009 22:00:32 GMT -5
Hi Sower I for one am not talking about a , although I am not sure your words above are a reply to my post either, but I thought I might clarify my position anyways. I am saying that the transformation of those alive when Christ "returned" merely did not happen at the time of the resurrection of the dead . As Paul wrote. The living do not precede the dead. IOW the living are changed afterwards. In other words they continue to live on earth. The alternate view has the living being changed (raptured) at more or less the same time, that is slightly afterwards. At least that is how I see it. I mean if the dead are raised, and changed in the twinkling of an eye (instantaneously) and then the living are changed (presumably soon after) , then really they both happen at much the same time, dont they? Added in edit: Read this way we see the same message as we see thru the NT. The long awaited resurrection of the dead is almost here! In fact it will happen before we all die! |
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Post by Sower on Feb 21, 2009 17:10:09 GMT -5
Hi Sower I for one am not talking about a spiritual or figurative ;remaining; on the earth., although I am not sure your words above are a reply to my post either, but I thought I might clarify my position anyways. That was not directed at anyone. I simply meant I believed the words Paul, and Jesus spoke describing the resurrection, and catching up at the last trump, were meant to be taken literally, not spiritually or figuratively. |
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Post by adhitthana on Feb 22, 2009 6:18:48 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 15:52...In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, "at" the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortality must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. I see this all occurring at the last trump. Hmmm, yes. I am going to rethink this again. You seem to have a good point. |
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Post by mellontes on Feb 22, 2009 12:31:08 GMT -5
MtyMousie, may I clarify by asking if you believe these two statements are equivalent and speaking of the exact same event? Hopefully your realize that this was spoken to His disciples and not to those who would experience His wrath.
Hopefully, you realize that Jesus is not addressing the disciples here, but the same group of people in verse 23,24,26:
23 - But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Matthew 23:39 is addressed to UNBELIEVERS, just as Luke 21:23-26 is.
Matthew 23:39 - For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
And it was the same Jesus who said that "Ye shall not see me henceforth" unless they were able to call Him blessed before that time - and that is speaking of salvation before judgment!
This last innuendo of yours where you say that Jesus was a true prophet is totally uncalled for, unless you believe that we think that Jesus IS a false prophet, which, hopefully, you realize is not true at all...
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Post by Allyn on Feb 22, 2009 13:00:58 GMT -5
MtyMousie, may I clarify by asking if you believe these two statements are equivalent and speaking of the exact same event? Hopefully your realize that this was spoken to His disciples and not to those who would experience His wrath. Hopefully, you realize that Jesus is not addressing the disciples here, but the same group of people in verse 23,24,26: 23 - But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Matthew 23:39 is addressed to UNBELIEVERS, just as Luke 21:23-26 is. Matthew 23:39 - For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. And it was the same Jesus who said that "Ye shall not see me henceforth" unless they were able to call Him blessed before that time - and that is speaking of salvation before judgment! This last innuendo of yours where you say that Jesus was a true prophet is totally uncalled for, unless you believe that we think that Jesus IS a false prophet, which, hopefully, you realize is not true at all... Sadly, Ted, Mtymousie has resigned his membership. |
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Post by mellontes on Feb 23, 2009 11:20:28 GMT -5
Some concluding remarks on my part...
In my last post addressed to Mtymousie, I began to realize hours later that those who were to see the sign, see the Son of Man coming, etc. were the ones to be judged. The "elect" (however defined) are not told they would see these events. They were told to flee.
So, I am thinking that if the rapture is a literal whisking away at His second appearing, then why wouldn't they be able see these things? And if in heaven, for those raptured, would they not be able to see these things too???
It seems to me that the reason the "elect" were not told about seeing these things, is because they had fled when told to do so. And the ones to come under judgment are the ones who were told they would see these things.
I would like to know specifically if there are any scriptures (not Josephus) that mention the elect seeing the things associated with His coming. I just can't remember any offhand and there very well may be...
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