Christ's parousia and its OT precedent...

[stormcrow]

I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. Jeremiah 4:26 (KJV)

And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?' Matthew 24:3 (YLT)

The sign of the presence of God in Jeremiah 4:26 is the same sign of the presence (parousia) of Christ in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.

Just as the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar was the sign of the presence of God in judgment upon Jerusalem in 587 BC (Jeremiah 4:26), so too was the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Titus Flavius of Rome the sign of the presence (parousia) of Christ in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The broader question is this: why does a literal translation of the Bible translate the Greek word "parousia" as "presence", when most other translations translate it as "coming."

It seems clear to me that these repeated mistranslations of certain words in the New Testament continue to feed the Futurist/Dispensationalist error.

[Morris]

Jul 9, 2012 0:27:42 GMT -5 stormcrow said:

The broader question is this: why does a literal translation of the Bible translate the Greek word "parousia" as "presence", when most other translations translate it as "coming."

It seems clear to me that these repeated mistranslations of certain words in the New Testament continue to feed the Futurist/Dispensationalist error.

While I generally agree with your last statement, I think your question regarding the translation of 'parousias' is a matter of context. In Matthew 24:3, the "presence" that is being inquired about was not yet 'present'. Jesus was standing in front of them; He was present, they were in His presence, and the sign of it was that they could see Him.

It was concerning later on, when He wasn't physically present with them*, that they were asking about the "sign" of Him being present. The presence they were speaking of at the time had still yet to come. Hence, a 'coming presence' as in Philippians 1:26, "that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming [parousias] to you again".

* "you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ", Matthew 23:39.

Does that help at all?

[stormcrow]

It was concerning later on, when He wasn't physically present with them*, that they were asking about the "sign" of Him being present.

Yes, I understand the nature of the question they asked. The point I'm trying to make here is that so much error surrounding eschatology continues to persist because of mistranslations of words that - if translated consistently throughout the Bible - would make much more clear the intent of the authors. Perfect examples of this can be found in the following verses:

having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Acts 24:15 (NASB)

There is not a single translation (except one) dating back to the King James that doesn't translate this Greek word "mello" as "shall" or "shall be" this way, and yet in every other NT occurrence, this same Greek word is translated using the infinitive "to be about to." Reading this word "shall" in Paul's defense before Felix - noted above - makes it appear as though Paul didn't believe the resurrection to which he referred was imminent. Only when you read this same verse in Young's Literal Translation do you get the sense of imminence in Paul that you see in every other NT writer:

having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; Acts 24:15 (YLT)

This same mistranslation of the word "mello" appears in II Timothy 4:1:

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Timothy 4:1 (NASB)

I'm using the NASB here because it is believed by many to be the most accurate translation of the Greek and yet, again, we see in even this translation no sense of urgency or imminence in Paul's urging to Timothy. Yet when this same passage is read again in Young's Literal, it's there!

I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign-- 2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT)

Had the false doctrine of Futurism not crept into these translations, I dare say there wouldn't be so much argument over the timing of Christ's second coming - His parousia - in 70 AD.

[Morris]

All I would say to this is to be careful not fall into the same error as you're pointing out. By that I mean to use a Greek word in only one of it's possible facets. "Mello" does not mean "imminent" or "about to happen", although a nearness of time is often associated with it. "Mello" is more concerned with "intention", and when someone intends something, it is often because they will perform what is intended soon.

It's late and I got to get to bed, but here are some things to consider. "Mello" and its variations are either in the Present tense or Imperfect tense. Notice that it isn't Future or Perfect Past tense. In Acts 24:15 it is a verb in the present tense and infinitive mood and as such denotes a "continuous (or progressive) kind of action". In this case you could say "a state of persistence". It also can act as a noun, known as a "verbal noun".

Now, that isn't to say that "Mello" is saying something is happening continuous, but that the "intention" itself (the word mello itself) is. Again, time is not what the word is about. I think the best way to illustrate this is by an example.

Matthew 11:14,
"And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come." NKJ
"and if ye are willing to receive [it], he is Elijah who was about to come" YLT

"Mellon erchesthai", literally, "one-being-about to-be-coming". But look at the passage and see what was being referenced.

Verses 9 and 10, "But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. For this is he of whom it is written: ‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You’ ".
That's from Malachi 3:1, and yet the word was used to say that John the Baptist was the one whom Malachi said "was about to come to prepare the way".

"Mellon" here in Matthew 11 is not about 'who is' (as in future time) or 'who was about' (as in past time). It is in the Present tense regarding "intention", not in the timing of when the action should happen. Otherwise, the time between Malachi's writing and Jesus speaking these words represent "soon" and "imminent".

I think that it is perhaps best seen in the KJV of Matthew 11:14, "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come". This shows more clearly the intention that John was to be the Elijah that was to come.

[To clarify, I'm not trying to debunk anyone's doctrine, but that we should always be careful we don't fall to the same 'errors' as those we believe to be wrong. In this case I believe that mandating "mello" to mean "soon" or "urgent" is also an error in translating the meaning of the word. And I hope this made some sense as it is very late.]

[stormcrow]

In this case I believe that mandating "mello" to mean "soon" or "urgent" is also an error in translating the meaning of the word.

And yet everywhere else it's used in the NT (including Matthew 11, as I will demonstrate later), "soon" or "urgent" (imminence) is exactly what's being conveyed through the translation of it:

As Jesus was about to go up to Jerusalem... Matthew 20:17 (NASB)

But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They *said to Him, "We are able." Matthew 20:22 (NASB)

And a centurion's slave, who was highly regarded by him, was sick and about to die. Luke 7:2 (NASB)

who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Luke 9:31 (NASB)

So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to see Him, for He was about to pass through that way. Luke 19:4 (NASB)

They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?" Luke 21:7 (NASB)

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 (NASB)

It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. Luke 23:54 (NASB)

to fulfill the word of Jesus which He spoke, signifying by what kind of death He was about to die. John 18:32 (NASB)

When he saw Peter and John about to go into the temple, he began asking to receive alms. Acts 3:3 (NASB)

On the very night when Herod was about to bring him forward, Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains, and guards in front of the door were watching over the prison. Acts 12:6 (NASB)

But when Paul was about to open his mouth, Gallio said to the Jews, "If it were a matter of wrong or of vicious crime, O Jews, it would be reasonable for me to put up with you; Acts 18:14 (NASB)

And there he spent three months, and when a plot was formed against him by the Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he decided to return through Macedonia. Acts 20:3 (NASB)

As Paul was about to be brought into the barracks, he said to the commander, "May I say something to you?" And he *said, "Do you know Greek? Acts 21:37 (NASB)

When the centurion heard this, he went to the commander and told him, saying, "What are you about to do? For this man is a Roman." Acts 22:26 (NASB)

Therefore those who were about to examine him immediately let go of him; and the commander also was afraid when he found out that he was a Roman, and because he had put him in chains. Acts 22:29 (NASB)

"When this man was arrested by the Jews and was about to be slain by them, I came up to them with the troops and rescued him, having learned that he was a Roman. Acts 23:27 (NASB)

Festus then answered that Paul was being kept in custody at Caesarea and that he himself was about to leave shortly. Acts 25:4 (NASB)

"In regard to all the things of which I am accused by the Jews, I consider myself fortunate, King Agrippa, that I am about to make my defense before you today; Acts 26:2 (NASB)

And embarking in an Adramyttian ship, which was about to sail to the regions along the coast of Asia, we put out to sea accompanied by Aristarchus, a Macedonian of Thessalonica. Acts 27:2 (NASB)

Until the day was about to dawn, Paul was encouraging them all to take some food, saying, "Today is the fourteenth day that you have been constantly watching and going without eating, having taken nothing. Acts 27:33 (NASB)

But they were expecting that he was about to swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But after they had waited a long time and had seen nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and began to say that he was a god. Acts 28:6 (NASB)

who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "SEE," He says, "THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN." Hebrews 8:5 (NASB)

~'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10 (NASB)

~'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. Revelation 3:2 (NASB)

~'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Revelation 3:10 (NASB)

Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!" Revelation 8:13 (NASB)

When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them." Revelation 10:4 (NASB)

but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. Revelation 10:7 (NASB)

And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. Revelation 12:4 (NASB)

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. Revelation 17:8 (NASB)

The reason I can't agree with your reading of Matthew 11:14 is because the prophecy to which Jesus refers there (Malachi 3:1-3) makes it clear that Elijah (John) was about to come immediately prior to Messiah. In other words, the context of both passages convey imminence within the context of Christ's coming. Again, Young's Literal gets the translation of mello right:

and if ye are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was about to come; Matthew 11:14 (YLT)

Now, read that verse again with the two missing words implied by Christ's reference to the prophecy of Malachi 3:

and if ye are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was about to come [before me]; Matthew 11:14 (YLT)

Therefore, even this passage in the YLT conveys the imminence of the word mello that is left out of every other translation since and including King James.

The difference between it's use in Matthew 11 and every other passage where it's used is that in Matthew 11, it's set in the context of a specific event which was fulfilled in the birth of John to Elizabeth and the birth of Jesus to Mary 6 months later.

In every case, however, the word mello conveys imminence and/or immediacy except in those few verses where the translators felt it didn't fit their eschatological point of view; specifically Acts 24:15 and II Timothy 4:1.

Here those verses are again from the YLT:

having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; Acts 24:15 (YLT)

I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign-- 2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT)

[Morris]

[Edit: This isn't a response to stormcrow's post above. I will do that in a little while.]

Jul 10, 2012 9:18:24 GMT -5 stormcrow said:

There is not a single translation (except one) dating back to the King James that doesn't translate this Greek word "mello" as "shall" or "shall be" this way, and yet in every other NT occurrence, this same Greek word is translated using the infinitive "to be about to."

As a further note (of my own personal study), I think the above is what may be providing the difficulty; specifically, the word 'about'. In Strong's comments on the word 'mello' and 'be about', he notes "in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation". The difference can be illustrated by the contrast of these two sentences: "I am about to play a game of hockey" and, "I am all about the game of hockey".

Let's look at Romans 4:23,24, "Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead".

The two underlined parts are the Greek words 'mellei logizesthai', literally, 'it-is-being-about to-be-being-accounted'. The problem is that we are inclined to read, 'it-is-being about-to-be being-accounted', or 'it is about to be accounted'. However, 'mellei' is an indicative verb in the present tense. This is very important because when a verb is indicative (i.e. a statement of fact) and in the present tense, the word portrays action that is taking place or going on in the present time. (Note how this is different when the verb is not indicative and its tense then relates to "kind of action" more so than timing).

With this information we can now see how Paul is saying, 'Right now, it is the duty of righteousness to be counted to the ones believing in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead'. This reiterates what Paul spoke of in the previous chapter; "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed... to all and on all who believe... to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." He isn't saying that it would happen 'soon' or 'imminently' at all, but that it was current and present.

One final note on the English translation "It shall"; we usually think of this as 'shall do something in the future', however it can also be used to mean, 'must' or 'intent to'. Also, when the word is in the 2nd or 3rd person (as 'mello' often is), the word 'shall' was to be used when 'determination' was to be expressed ('will' being used for the first person).

Anyway, I found all this interesting so I decided to share it.

[Morris]

Jul 12, 2012 10:12:25 GMT -5 stormcrow said:

In this case I believe that mandating "mello" to mean "soon" or "urgent" is also an error in translating the meaning of the word.

And yet everywhere else it's used in the NT (including Matthew 11, as I will demonstrate later), "soon" or "urgent" (imminence) is exactly what's being conveyed through the translation of it:

You have listed 31 of the 110 appearances of the word mello, the majority of which you listed come from the book of Acts (34 of the 107 verses), which deals a lot with narrating events. As I said, the notion of 'soon' can easily be implied in some instances of mello, even though the word itself doesn't mean 'soon'.

There is a reason that the word is in the present or imperfect tenses, and not in the future tense.

Another verse to look at is Acts 5:35, "And he said to them: 'Men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do regarding these men'." Again, mello is in the present tense and translated as "you intend". Notice that it isn't 'what you will soon do'. It is the present intention.

Romans 8:13 is an interesting one, "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live". Looking at "you will die" and "you will live", they seem to both suggest things that will happen at some point in the future. "You will die" is from the two words 'mellete apothneskein', 'ye-are-being-about to-be-dying'. Both words are present tense.

"You will live", however, is one word ('zesesthe' 'ye-shall-be-living') and is in the future tense. These two phrases ("you will die", "you will live") are not really that similar. The first is more like 'you are dying off' while the second is 'you are going to live', and yet the word that supposed means 'soon' is with the present state of 'dying', instead of the imminent future word of 'will live'. By the way, 'apothneskein' ('dying') could have been in the future tense (as in John 8:24) if 'mello' was meant to mean 'soon' here.

But again, it isn't that mello can't have connotations of soon, it just that it isn't the definition of the word; it's "to intend". In a way, imminence is very closely tied to the word when it is in its present tense, but that goes for just about anything in the present tense.

The reason I can't agree with your reading of Matthew 11:14 is because the prophecy to which Jesus refers there (Malachi 3:1-3) makes it clear that Elijah (John) was about to come immediately prior to Messiah. In other words, the context of both passages convey imminence within the context of Christ's coming. Again, Young's Literal gets the translation of mello right:

By what basis or process are you judging the YLT to be right? My process used the definitions of the words and their grammatical properties. My point here is that we can't say a particular translation is correct because it agrees with our eschtalogical understanding.

and if ye are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was about to come; Matthew 11:14 (YLT)

Now, read that verse again with the two missing words implied by Christ's reference to the prophecy of Malachi 3:

and if ye are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was about to come [before me]; Matthew 11:14 (YLT)

This is interpretation, not translation.

[Got to go. More later.]

[Morris]

Jul 12, 2012 10:12:25 GMT -5 stormcrow said:

The reason I can't agree with your reading of Matthew 11:14 is because the prophecy to which Jesus refers there (Malachi 3:1-3) makes it clear that Elijah (John) was about to come immediately prior to Messiah. In other words, the context of both passages convey imminence within the context of Christ's coming. Again, Young's Literal gets the translation of mello right:

and if ye are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was about to come; Matthew 11:14 (YLT)

Now, read that verse again with the two missing words implied by Christ's reference to the prophecy of Malachi 3:
and if ye are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was about to come [before me]; Matthew 11:14 (YLT)

Therefore, even this passage in the YLT conveys the imminence of the word mello that is left out of every other translation since and including King James.

Perhaps I'll ask you this question; are you basing the definition of the word 'mello' on how it appears in English translations or are you basing it on the meaning given to the Greek word itself? Using the Greek definition it could say 'he is Elijah, the one who's purpose is to come'.

Again, the emphasis is not on immediacy, but on the intention, its expectancy, and its possibility (or certainty, when in the indicative). It is in the present tense in Matthew. There is no word the this sentence that is in the past or future tenses.

All that said, there are times when "about to" fits well as a translation, even though it isn't the definition in the strictest sense. It works well when there is an immediate action associated with it, and you've show many examples. The question becomes what are we willing to declare as 'immediate'. Is it an hour away, a day , a week , a year, a decade, or a century away? At which point do we say 'about to' no longer applies?

The reason I don't need to be overly concerned with my answer to this question is because 'mello' isn't specifically a time-oriented word, but an action-oriented word. The word is concerned with the intention and not with the performance (unless in the indicative which denotes 'statement of fact').

Here's another verse to look at. Acts 13:34 NASB, "As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’". (YLT uses "more")

This suggests that Jesus will never "return to decay", but if we use the 'about to/soon' definition, we get 'not about to/soon to return to decay', leaving open the thought that He may eventual do so.

The exact same form of 'mello' appears in Luke 21:36 NASB, which you posted, "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." (YLT also uses "about to")

Now, regarding consistency in using the exact same word, why is "longer/more" used in Acts and "about to" used in Luke? Why would 'about to' be used for something 40 years away? That doesn't seem consistent with Acts' use of 'about to' which is generally very soon (between immediately and a day or so). [Note that I'm not suggesting that Luke 21 doesn't refer to 70AD. I'm suggesting that 'mello' does not say that 40 years is soon, and that it instead says it happens by purpose and necessity regardless if a moment away or decades away.]

I should have thought of this before, but look at any place that 'mello' appears and you could use a form of the word 'expect' (expecting, expected, expectation, etc.) in the translation. Not to say this is the best translation by any means, just that it helps in understanding the concept of the word. This would give us:

Acts 13:34, 'As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, not expecting to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David'.’

Luke 21:36, 'But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are expected to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.'

[stormcrow]

Perhaps I'll ask you this question; are you basing the definition of the word 'mello' on how it appears in English translations or are you basing it on the meaning given to the Greek word itself?

I'm basing it on the common translation it's given in every other verse where it's used to convey imminence, as noted in my earlier post.

Greek NASB Number: 3195
Greek Word: μέλλω
Transliterated Word: mellô
Root: a prim. vb.;

[glow=red,2,300]Definition: to be about to:--[/glow]
New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, (Anaheim, CA: Foundation Publications, 1998), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "3195".

Again, a perfect example of this is Revelation 2:10:

~'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10 (NASB)

It's patently clear to me that when the English definition of a Greek word is "to be about to", those four words combined both connote and denote imminence and intent in the context of another action or event:

"Satan is about to throw you in prison."
"Do not fear what you are about to suffer."
"I am about to scream!"
"You are about to travel abroad."
"We are about to go to a movie."

This word "mello" is consistently used this way in every other translation (except Young's) until you come to verses like Acts 24:15 and 2Timothy 4:1, where the idea of imminence is completely stripped from its meaning and you are left only with intent. It should not be the interpreter's job to redefine a word this way and yet, that's precisely what the KJV, ESV, ASB, NASB, NJKV, etc. have all done.

As to why I believe Young's Literal is correct? Well first, it's a literal, word-for-word translation, not a dynamic equivalence or "thought-for-thought" translation, as so many other translations are.

Second, Young's approach to translation itself:

The Literal Translation is unusual in that, as the name implies, it is a strictly literal translation of the original Hebrew and Greek texts. The Preface to the Second Edition states,

If a translation gives a present tense when the original gives a past, or a past when it has a present; a perfect for a future, or a future for a perfect; an a for a the, or a the for an a; an imperative for a subjunctive, or a subjunctive for an imperative; a verb for a noun, or a noun for a verb, it is clear that verbal inspiration is as much overlooked as if it had no existence. THE WORD OF GOD IS MADE VOID BY THE TRADITIONS OF MEN. [Emphases in original.]

Therefore, Young used the present tense in many places in which other translations use the past tense, particularly in narratives.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_Literal_Translation

Again, I'm not the one arguing for a particular translation of the word that fits my particular eschatological view. I am simply asking why this word "mello" when translated "to be about to" (conveying both imminence and intent) everywhere else it's used in the NT isn't used this way when we come to verses like Acts 24:15 and 2Timothy 4:1.

And I believe the reason for that is fairly simple: to translate it as Young did, other translators would've had to set aside their particular eschatological view.

[Morris]

Jul 14, 2012 1:46:17 GMT -5 stormcrow said:

I'm basing it on the common translation it's given in every other verse where it's used to convey imminence...

Luke 21:36, "Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will [mello] come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Acts 17:31, "because He has appointed a day on which [mello] He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Are these "mello"s considered "imminent"? Can 'imminent', which is "likely to occur at any moment; impending", mean many years, or even 40 years which is considered a generation? Can I say that all events that will happen to me in my lifetime are imminent events? Is 40 years considered to be "soon to be about to"?

Then there are the many cases where "imminent" makes no sense.
Galatians 3:23, "But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward [mello] be revealed."

In the YLT, "And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed"

When everybody was under the law, was faith imminently about to be revealed? Perhaps for some that were very young but what about those who came to faith after many, many years of being under the law? Not only that, but "we" is inclusive of everyone that was under the law from the time the law was added.

2 Peter 2:6 YLT, "and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set them."

Does this mean that Sodom and Gomorrah were an example only those soon to be impious after their overthrow, but not to those long after the fact? Or, we can see the importance of present intention without any specific regard to length of time.

These are only some examples of verses. I have many more to come as I have the time to post them.
Just one quick comment before I finish here for the time being.

This word "mello" is consistently used this way in every other translation (except Young's) until you come to verses like Acts 24:15 and 2Timothy 4:1, where the idea of imminence is completely stripped from its meaning and you are left only with intent.

An idea can only be 'stripped from' when it is inherently presently. Imminence is only inferred by mello in some cases because of the surrounding words connected to it.

Acts 26:22 YLT, "Having obtained, therefore, help from God, till this day, I have stood witnessing both to small and to great, saying nothing besides the things that both the prophets and Moses spake of as about to come"

The prophets and Moses spoke of things that were about to come from their perspective (and that is the 'literal' interpretation), yet didn't come for many centuries. Imminence is not inherent in the word mello.

If imminence is an inherent concept of mello, how do define imminent?

[Morris]

Here's another quick one;

Acts 22:16 YLT, "and now, why tarriest thou? having risen, baptize thyself, and wash away thy sins, calling upon the name of the Lord."

Can this mello mean 'to be about to' in the sense of 'imminent'? The Greek just simply says, 'And now why you-are-being-about'. If 'about to' is the literal translation of mello, why is it not used in this instance?

Note that the exact same form of mello is used in John 14:22, Acts 22:26, and Revelation 2:10, which you used above.

[Edit: Just to let you know that I'll be away for about a week at a conference and so won't be able to post until I get back. Have a good week everybody.]

[stormcrow]

watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.' Luke 21:36 (YLT)

All these things is all-inclusive. Among the things He predicts in this passage is the persecution they would suffer at the hands of the Jews which began with the stoning of Stephen shortly after Christ's ascension.

So it would not be incorrect to say all these things were about to happen. The "beginning of the end" began with Christ's coming.

because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.' Acts 17:31 (YLT)

It makes perfect sense here, too.

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, Galatians 3:23 (YLT)

Read the context of this passage from Galatians. It's clear he's referring to the coming of faith to the Galatians:

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:25-26 (NASB)

Audience relevance. He is making a point in this passage about how faith came to them.

If imminence is an inherent concept of mello, how do define imminent?

"Likely to occur at any moment." Jesus told them they would not know the day or the hour, but He gave them the signs for His return and told them it would happen while some of them were still alive.

The last sign He told them before the end would come was that the gospel would be preached throughout all the nations. By the time Paul was writing to the churches, the gospel had gone forth.

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. Romans 1:8 (NASB)

but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; Romans 16:26 (NASB)

the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world Colossians 1:5-6 (NASB)

the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven Colossians 1:23 (NASB)

They viewed His return as imminent and reflected that in their writings.

Mello was used precisely because it conveyed this idea that His coming was imminent: likely to happen at any moment. Futurists believe the same thing today and express it when they say, "I believe Jesus could come at any moment." The problem is, people today missed His second coming by about 2,000 years.

[Morris]

I'm back and it appears I'm making up for lost time. I'm sorry up front about the length.

Jul 18, 2012 2:40:17 GMT -5 stormcrow said:

watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.' Luke 21:36 (YLT)

All these things is all-inclusive. Among the things He predicts in this passage is the persecution they would suffer at the hands of the Jews which began with the stoning of Stephen shortly after Christ's ascension.

So it would not be incorrect to say all these things were about to happen. The "beginning of the end" began with Christ's coming.

So then, what the words actually say is that all these things, Christ's coming included, were about to happen. Is it correct and appropriate to say that an event 40 years away is about to happen? Do 25 year old people correctly say they are "about to retire" when it's 40 years away?

I agree that some of these things were about to happen in a relatively short time-frame, but that isn't the issue. Saying that 40 years is "soon" is an issue. We might as well just say that "soon" means "any time in the future".

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, Galatians 3:23 (YLT)

Read the context of this passage from Galatians. It's clear he's referring to the coming of faith to the Galatians:

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:25-26 (NASB)

Audience relevance. He is making a point in this passage about how faith came to them.

This is true as Paul relates the 'big picture story' to those he is addressing. But he is speaking of faith that makes available the promise of God through Christ Jesus. Why do I say that? Read the big picture story that he wrote immediately prior:

"Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

His point here is that the promise was made to Jesus the Seed, and that it is received through faith in that Seed. Verse 23 is like a summary of what Paul just wrote above, "And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed" (Galatians 3:23 YLT).

But the revealing of the faith cannot be a future, imminent event, because of what Paul himself wrote. To the Galatians he says, "so thoughtless are ye! having begun in the Spirit...", which shows us that they were indeed in the Spirit. "He, therefore, who is supplying to you the Spirit, and working mighty acts among you -- by works of law or by the hearing of faith [is it]?" (YLT); the Spirit is supplied by the hearing of faith. And, "that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith" (YLT).

Faith had already been revealed to them. They had the Spirit which was received through the faith. A faith that was intended from even before the law was given. Now read Galatians 3:22,23 again in the YLT, "but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed,"

Before the coming of the faith, when the law had all 'shut up' [locked up together] under sin where they were being kept, they were also 'shut up' to the faith which would come to them. Before the actual coming of the promise by faith in Christ Jesus, it was always intended that it would come. This, I believe, was Paul's point in saying all that he did in regard to Abraham in verses 6-9;
"according as Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him to righteousness; know ye, then, that those of faith, these are sons of Abraham, and the Writing having foreseen that by faith God doth declare righteous the nations did proclaim before the good news [Gospel] to Abraham[/u], 'Blessed in thee shall be all the nations;' so that those of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham[/i]".

That was long and I apologize for it, but I needed to say all that to show why I believe what I do in regard to the word 'mello'. If 'mello' means only "about to" in an imminent future sense, then scripture says that the faith that Jesus brought was "about to be revealed" as soon as the law came.

If imminence is an inherent concept of mello, how do define imminent?

"Likely to occur at any moment." Jesus told them they would not know the day or the hour, but He gave them the signs for His return and told them it would happen while some of them were still alive.

So, in other words, would you say 'any time in the future'? In the above case saying, 'any time in the future while some of them were still alive?' As I see it, this is using the phrase 'Likely to occur at any moment' in the sense of 'unknown in the future' instead of 'likely to occur soon'. Another definition of imminent is "liable to happen soon; impending" (World English Dictionary). Do you see the difference I am trying to show? Imminent has an 'impending' aspect to it; an 'any moment now' concept. It is incorrect usage of the word to say that something 40 years away is imminent. I can say that something is intended to happen within 40 years, but not imminently happen within 40 years.

The last sign He told them before the end would come was that the gospel would be preached throughout all the nations. By the time Paul was writing to the churches, the gospel had gone forth.

Fully agreed.

Mello was used precisely because it conveyed this idea that His coming was imminent: likely to happen at any moment. Futurists believe the same thing today and express it when they say, "I believe Jesus could come at any moment." The problem is, people today missed His second coming by about 2,000 years.

They are using the word incorrectly then; it means "likely to occur at any moment" and "liable to happen soon", not could, might, or possibly (in the sense of small chances/likelihood).

With all that said, I'd like to reiterate that I do not believe mello can't reference something that happens soon, only that it doesn't strictly mean it has to.

[stormcrow]

I'll just let the words of Christ and the apostles speak for theselves.

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:34-36 (NASB)

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (ESV)

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:34 (ESV)

Therefore you [the disciples He was addressing on the Mount of Olives!] also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Matthew 24:44 (ESV)

Jesus said to *Caiaphas, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Matthew 26:64 (ESV)

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 (NASB)

"These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. "They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. "These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. "But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you. John 16:1-4 (NASB)

the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.' Acts 17:30-31 (YLT)

having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; Acts 24:15 (YLT)

so that you [Corinthians!] are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (NASB)

But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none; and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess; and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away. 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NASB)

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:4-5 (NASB)

For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you [Thessalonians] turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 (NASB)

For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you [Thessalonians], in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? For you are our glory and joy. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 (NASB)

I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign-- 2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT)

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)

so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28 (NASB)

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:13 (NASB)

The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 (ESV)

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

~'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. Revelation 2:16 (NASB)

~'Nevertheless what you [Thyatira] have, hold fast until I come. Revelation 2:25 (NASB)

~'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ~'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Revelation 3:10-11 (NASB)

And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:6-7 (NASB)

And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

Jesus said He would return while some of them still lived and they passed on that belief in the letters they wrote. Their belief in His imminent return was pervasive and overwhelming. If Jesus Christ did not come as He promised them, then He lied to them and they - in turn - have lied to us.

If Futurism is true, Jesus Christ and His apostles lied.

If that's true, I want no part of a religion based on lies. You shouldn't either.

[Morris]

Jul 25, 2012 10:20:11 GMT -5 stormcrow said:

I'll just let the words of Christ and the apostles speak for theselves.

I'm not arguing against what they said, although as you yourself also point out, we have to be careful with how it is translated into English. (I notice that you used several different translations for this precise reason). I agree that Christ's return in judgement happened at the destruction of Jerusalem. But again, that isn't the issue.

I not saying that Christ didn't return in the first century, I'm saying the word mello doesn't prove it; there are plenty of other scriptural supports for it.

Again, let's look at the definition of the word mello:
From Strong

a strengthened form of G3199 (through the idea of expectation);
to intend, i.e. be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things, especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation).

Note that it mentions "to intend", and regarding "be about" it says "in the sense of purpose, duty...", etc. Time-frame may or may not be implied, and is determined by other words linked to it.

From Thayer

1) to be about
1a) to be on the point of doing or suffering something
1b) to intend, have in mind, think to

It says the same thing. "To be about" has two facets to it (like a coin having two unique sides); it can be an expectant action OR it can be an expectant intention.

Here is my point: Mello does not always mean 'about to' because it can also mean 'to intend, have in mind, think to'. (Saying it only means 'about to' is like saying a coin only has the 'tails' side and no 'head' side.) The definition shows this and the many examples of verses shows this.

Here is an example from the Old Testament; Job 19:25, "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth". The Septuagint uses the word mello in this verse. If mello can mean imminent over many, many centuries, then the futurists can use it that way as well. The issue I have is that 'imminent' doesn't mean 'any time in the future', and 'mello' does not only mean 'to be on the point of'.

Jesus said He would return while some of them still lived and they passed on that belief in the letters they wrote. Their belief in His imminent return was pervasive and overwhelming.

I see a bit of the futurist mindset in this. Jesus told them of many things that would happen first. His return was not imminent to them until they saw these signs that He told them about. Once that happened, then yes, they believed it to be soon, and many letters attest to this since they were written closer to 70AD.

For instance, they knew that He would not return before certain events as described in Luke 21. "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near... because these are days of vengeance... Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near... Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place."

Jesus did not teach an "any moment" return. He said they will know when it is time, and that the time would come before that generation would pass away. He did not preach an imminent return but rather one that would happen after certain signs and before another (i.e. a specific window of time).

If Jesus Christ did not come as He promised them, then He lied to them and they - in turn - have lied to us.

If Futurism is true, Jesus Christ and His apostles lied.

If that's true, I want no part of a religion based on lies. You shouldn't either.

I absolutely agree. Jesus came as He promised. All those things had to happen before He would come and before that generation would pass away.

[Edit: Some misspellings]