A question about Duncan McKenzie article . . .

[stephenpatrick]

Good morning everybody.

In Duncan McKenzie's article on preteristarchive.com, found at this link, www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/1999_mckenzie_new-perspective.html
he makes the statement concerning full-preterism when talking about J. S. Russell's book, "The Parousia",

When Russell talks of the Gog and Magog invasion of Ezekiel 38 and 39 he took no pains to explain why he thought it was in the future.   He didn't feel he had to because he didn't think the context of the passage called for a pre-A.D. 70 fulfillment.  A current day full preterist comes to Ezekiel 38 and 39 with a hermeneutic constraint that it must have been fulfilled by AD 70.

My question, does this constraint exist? Does the statement by Jesus, Luke 21:22 "Because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled" eliminate "falsely" for the full-preterist that nothing else is to come up in the future?

For myself I have a tendency to wince when anyone mentions the Jew today as being "God chosen" or somehow their extremely diluted DNA constitutes them as being Israel after the flesh. Don't the curses of Deuteronomy and Leviticus apply now and forever for those claiming Jewish heritage? Does not history bear this out? Outside of Christ, I see no future fulfillments, or am I wrong?

Gog and Magog? Are we back to futurism again? I'm confused . . .

[Allyn]

Nov 27, 2008 10:22:06 GMT -5 stephenpatrick said:

Good morning everybody.

In Duncan McKenzie's article on preteristarchive.com, found at this link, www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/1999_mckenzie_new-perspective.html
he makes the statement concerning full-preterism when talking about J. S. Russell's book, "The Parousia",

When Russell talks of the Gog and Magog invasion of Ezekiel 38 and 39 he took no pains to explain why he thought it was in the future. He didn't feel he had to because he didn't think the context of the passage called for a pre-A.D. 70 fulfillment. A current day full preterist comes to Ezekiel 38 and 39 with a hermeneutic constraint that it must have been fulfilled by AD 70.

My question, does this constraint exist? Does the statement by Jesus, Luke 21:22 "Because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled" eliminate "falsely" for the full-preterist that nothing else is to come up in the future?

For myself I have a tendency to wince when anyone mentions the Jew today as being "God chosen" or somehow their extremely diluted DNA constitutes them as being Israel after the flesh. Don't the curses of Deuteronomy and Leviticus apply now and forever for those claiming Jewish heritage? Does not history bear this out? Outside of Christ, I see no future fulfillments, or am I wrong?

Gog and Magog? Are we back to futurism again? I'm confused . . .

I see no reason to think that the loosing of Satan is yet future. The end of the thousand years was not an event for earth to see but an event taking place in heaven just as it was started in heaven. Its of a spiritual nature not one that involve time.

[MoGrace2U]

If you take a look at the preceding chapters in Ezekiel where first Israel and then the nations are judged, you will see Tyre and Pharoah being likened to Satan in the descriptions given for them. I think 38 & 39 is intended as a synopsis of this duo whereby Satan works thru human princes leading the heathen nations against Israel - and is intended to point to Rome & the final battle that concerns Israel. But always there is a division made in Israel as it concerns who is judged and who is blessed.

When we get to Revelation we find that a similar division is made between who are saints and the holy city vs the apostates and their earthly city. Jerusalem of the earth takes on monikers such as Sodom & Egypt and Babylon to give us a clue as to who in view for wrath.

We cannot just pass over the fact that there is an apostate people inhabiting the land today who call themselves Jews and Israel and is somehow prophetic. This verse about Gog and Magog when compared to Ezekiel picks up for us in a time after the 1st advent. I don't see that Daniel or any of the prophets goes past Rome because that is where OT Israel ends.

So now in order to reference these people - who are NOT true Israel today, we are pointed back to this prophecy about Gog & Magog. Where it is specifically said that 1/6th of them will remain to return in the latter days. Modern Israel has come into the land from the north and did so to take a prey and a spoil of the people who were there. And like her persecutors in Germany, came in hell bent on the same sort of ethnic cleansing. If this is not a demonic move, then what is? This is a people claiming to be chosen by God who worship at the wall holding up an idol temple. Claiming to hold sway over the things of God while denying the Lord who was sent to redeem them IS Antichrist.

And their Pharisees & Talmud scribes are influencing Christendom into greater deception since they arrived. Most of these Messianics won't even use the name Jesus or call themselves Christians because of what these Judaizers are saying. They even preach circumcision to Gentiles claiming that Galatians is about Paul teaching this. Talk about turning the gospel upside down!

What surprises me is that Revelation expected its readers to understand that this deception they were experiencing in that day would mean the same for us near the end. You have to see the Alpha & Omega in this and how what began in Israel in holiness ended in so much apostacy because of the idolatry of their leaders. Israel today is given over to the idol of their mind yet they profess to be serving YHWH.

I can think of no more insidious deception that the devil could work against us than this. Which Godly purpose is to divide the tares from the saints so that judgment can come upon them - just as it was worked in the 1st century.

[stephenpatrick]

Thanks for the help. I couldn't agree more with regard to Israel's treatment to the Palestinians today. It is demonic.The support of Israel today by Christians seems to constitute a rejection of the claims of Jesus with regard to pretty much the entire Sermon on the Mount. Allyn writes of this somewhat in his EndTimesMadness when he says (forgive me if I'm wrong on this Allyn) it is almost cultic, or worship of the Jew based on they are always the "apple of God's eye", regardless of their treatment to even Palestinian Christians. To go against the Jew they will be cursed with the Genesis 12:3 curse.

[Sower]

Hello Stephen,

Good question!

My position, ALL things written (Genesis-Revelation) were fulfilled during "the days of vengance" (Luke 21:22).

The days of vengeance occurred when the apostles saw Jerusalem compassed with armies and the destruction of Jeruslem (Luke 21:20-32), AD70.

Lady Sower~

[phil]

Hi Lady Sower. Do I know you from another site?

Anyways, your comment is mostly on par. While some of the apostles, probably only 3 or 4 (5 if you include John), did see the start of the Roman Wars of 63-70 AD (this is the last 7 year period), the only apostle to have actually witnessed Jerusalem and the surrounding areas encompassed by Rome and its nation of legions was John. All other apostles, including Paul, were dead by about 66AD.

An interesting point to note, the gruesome death of James was the final straw that completed the last 3 1/2 year period and it was his death that may have actually incited the riots that led to Jerusalem being blockaded, but this is another story of the "days of wrath".

[Sower]

Nov 28, 2008 18:48:57 GMT -5 @phil said:

Hi Lady Sower.

Hello Phil,

Do I know you from another site?

Perhaps, from CARM.

Anyways, your comment is mostly on par. While some of the apostles, probably only 3 or 4 (5 if you include John), did see the start of the Roman Wars of 63-70 AD (this is the last 7 year period), the only apostle to have actually witnessed Jerusalem and the surrounding areas encompassed by Rome and its nation of legions was John. All other apostles, including Paul, were dead by about 66AD.

An interesting point to note, the gruesome death of James was the final straw that completed the last 3 1/2 year period and it was his death that may have actually incited the riots that led to Jerusalem being blockaded, but this is another story of the "days of wrath".

That's a story that I would be very interested in hearing!

Blessings,

Lady Sower~

[MoGrace2U]

I know some of the prophecy mongers think that the Church is headed for tribulation and wrath. But the true Church is who holds the hope of salvation and not wrath. But what does that say for the multitude of divisions that have come about since its inception? The visible church is more a parody of Israel in her last days as greedy power seeking men have gotten the rule to take a spoil of the people for their own gain.

It is hard to ignore this parallel when considering that Satan's little season comes a long time after the resurrection of the saints which certainly implies a post 70AD timing.

The biggest reason though that I do not put that season at 70AD is because it was Satan who was working the iniquity which deceived them that led to Israel's judgment. And he was only bound from that work after the beast and false prophet fell. That binding was thus at the time of the resurrection and judgment. Which certainly seems to be the chronology presented for those things that concern the coming of the Lord.

And CARM would seem to present a microcosim of what this little season might look like, as we see that very few people there seem to know what they believe anymore. Which is true of most Christian boards I have visited. Fostering strife, contention, hatred - sounds like Satan at work to me!