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Post by edwardgoodie on Jan 17, 2012 15:13:09 GMT -5
2 Corinthians 4:4 - In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
I presume that "this world" [aion-age] refers to THAT present age at the time of the writing (pre AD70).
I have heard one preterist (?) say that the "god" of that world (age) is Jesus Christ. His support is as follows:
1. Christ is the image of "the God" (hotheos) who blinds the minds of men which completely rules out that it can be a reference to satan.
"The God" (hotheos) who blinds the minds of unbelievers in the first clause and "the God" (hotheos) of whom Christ is the image in the second clause are the same person. Jesus is the image of "the God" in the second clause. Therefore, "the God" in the first clause CANNOT be satan.
2. The term "of this age" is amphibolous and refers to unbelievers.
"The God has blinded the minds of those who of this age do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of the God, should shine on them."
3. In 3:14 Paul had just said that the unbelievers of the prior age were blinded by God through the putting on of a veil over the face of Moses.
"Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the SAME VEIL remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ."
The instrument of the blindness of unbelievers of both ages was the "same veil." Satan NEVER had the power to blind the minds of men. And he is NEVER called "the God" (hotheos) anywhere in the scriptures.
I vehemently disagree. The "god of this world" is not pointing to Jesus Christ at all.
It is assumed by this preterist that the "god of this world" cannot be satan. This assumes that we believe the "god of this world" does refer to satan. Where does this presupposition come from? And because this individual believes the presupposition, much of what is said springboards from it...
It is strange that this preterist would hold to such a presupposition because it is proved incorrect from the their points expressed:
Satan NEVER had the power to blind the minds of men. And he is NEVER called "the God" (hotheos) anywhere in the scriptures.
It all goes back to what is meant by "this age." I submit that it is the age of old covenant Judaism, adherence to the works of the Law, the old physical temple system and the individuals involved...
This preterist probably thinks lucifer was a reference to satan as well...
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jack
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Post by jack on Jan 18, 2012 12:08:39 GMT -5
EdwardGoodie said:
Where in that post did I infer that Preterists believe that satan is the god of this age?. I CLEARLY said that the Futurists believe this.
I said:
EdwardGoodie said:
Please note below that I did NOT say that the term "this age" was the new covenant age. I simply said that the instrument of the blinding of unbelievers of the "both ages" was the same veil. I did NOT infer that the "prior" age was old covenant nor that "this" age was new covenant.
I simply meant that the people of Moses' time and of Paul's time were blinded by the same veil.
I said:
The old covenant was divided into ages (plural). Paul said that the end of the ages (plural) had come upon them.
Ted is correct that the term "this age" refers to the old covenant . But it may also have special reference to the final days of the old covenant. Those of Paul's age were blinded by the same veil as those of Moses' time. Both 'ages' were old covenant.
Ted should have seeked clarification before posting this. But he is angry with me because I told him in a pm that I accepted the explanation of the Mod who banned him at GCCF.
I have been advocating to get Ted reinstated and he is displeased with me for the way I am doing it. So I told him I am done advocating for him. I think that this is what this thread is all about.
Jack
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Post by Allyn on Jan 18, 2012 12:16:12 GMT -5
I think it is an interesting connection Jack has made with the term "veil".
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jack
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Post by jack on Jan 18, 2012 13:54:22 GMT -5
I think it is an interesting connection Jack has made with the term "veil". They were NOT blinded by satan. They were blinded by God by instrumentation of the veil.
"Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech
unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
But their minds were blinded.
For until this day the SAME VEIL remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ....
God has blinded the minds of those who of this age do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of the God, should shine on them."www.rctr.org/journal/8.pdfThe Futurists yank Paul's "god of this age" statement out of its context. Jack |
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Post by edwardgoodie on Jan 18, 2012 14:51:18 GMT -5
Oh Jack, Jack, Jack...must you make everything so personal? Anytime someone disagrees with you, you get into such a huff. You are wrong about Ezekiel NOT containing any Messianic prophecies and you are wrong here - but you have little capacity to admit error.
"the god of this world" is to be equated with the "prince of this world" from John 12:31:
John 12:31 - Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
It is this same "prince of the world" from John 14:30:
John 14:30 - Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
And also from John 16:11:
John 16:11 - Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Jesus Himself said that He is not "of this world."
John 8:23 - And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I also see a connection Ephesians 2:2:
Ephesians 2:2 - Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
The "course of this world" which had blinded their minds was ACCORDING TO THE PRINCE OF THE POWER OF THE AIR - and that is most certainly not Jesus.
I also see a connection here as well:
Ephesians 6:12 - For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
It is not Jesus. And to say that it is Jesus is just about as bad as saying that the one who confirms the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is the antichrist.
You are spending too much time at the Christadelphian site again...
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jack
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Post by jack on Jan 18, 2012 15:52:06 GMT -5
Ted said:
In your fist week at GCCF Jarrod sent you a pm telling you that he was consolidating the many threads you created on similar subjects and asked you not to monoploize the board. You sent me a pm crying that you were being treated unfairly. You involved me when I had nothing to do with it. Jarrod's action was fair but you whined to me about it. So take the "don't take things personal" beam out of your own eye. Follow your own advice.
You say that the "prince of this age" in John 12 is to be equated with the "god of this age" in 2 Corinthians 4. Prove it! I think a better translation is,
"God has blinded the minds of the unbelieving of this age...."
1. God cannot be satan for Christ is his image.
"God has blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this age, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
God has blinded...that they cannot see Christ the image of God.
2. In 3:14 Paul said that it was the veil that blinded the minds of men in Moses' day and he said it was it was true until "this day."
3. The veil blinded the minds of men by the act of Moses himself. When the people saw the glory of God in the face of Moses he put the veil on his face to hide it. So God through that "same veil" in Paul's day hid the glory of Jesus from unbelievers.
Satan had NOTHING to do with it Moses' day and he had nothing to do with it in Paul's day.
4. John said that God blinded the minds of men to the glory of Jesus when he performed the miracles (John 12:4o-41).
Therefore, you have commented on 12:31 out of its context with 41-42 and you have suggested that satan and God are in league together blinding the minds of men.
1. Can you live with the idea that God and satan worked in league together?
2. Can you live with the idea that Christ is the image of satan?
Yes Mommy!
Jack
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Post by edwardgoodie on Jan 18, 2012 21:48:25 GMT -5
Gee Jack, That futurist forum of yours must be so impressed by your post about this topic. If you really wanted an unbiased opinion, you should have left my name off of it JUST I LIKE I DID HERE. www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/exposing-blasphemy-against-jesus-christ/msg1054660030/#msg1054660030Either you are seeking to discredit preterism or attempting to gather futurist followers by this latest antic of yours. I noticed that you continued to presume satan as the only alternate form of exegesis AGAIN...BTW, do you really believe satan is lucifer? You are incorrect about Jesus being the "god of this world" and you are incorrect about there being NO Messianic prophecies in Ezekiel... I just loved your "solid" rebuttal. Well, it was actually funny if it wasn't so sad. This was your proof: Prove it! I think a better translation is,
"God has blinded the minds of the unbelieving of this age...."Your exegetic style is so similar to the futurists. You should get along well with them... I am totally and completely done with you arrogant Calvinists. You may have the last word if you so choose. Oh, that's right, you can't choose...it's just not in you. BYE |
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Post by jack on Jan 19, 2012 11:30:30 GMT -5
Hi All,
My friend Keith has come over to the correct reading of 2 Corinthians 4:4. He is registered here as "WorshipingJesus" and he is a Futurist. Keith even sees an implication for the argumment regarding Christ's divinity.
On Heaven Net he said,
All the other Futurists on HN and our Preterist friend Ted here are fighting against the truth that Paul said nothing about satan being the 'god of this age.' Paul said,
"God has blinded the minds of the unbelieving of this age, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
The person who blinds in clause 1 is called "hotheos" (the God). Clause 2 says that Christ is the image of "hotheos" (the God). Therefore, "hotheos" in both clauses is one and the same and CANNOT be satan.
Hotheos (the God) blinded men both in Moses' and in Paul's times by instrumentation of the "same veil" (2 Corinthians 3:14).
When a Futurist will concede this and a Preterist cannot, what does this tell you about the Preterist?
Jack
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Post by Morris on Jan 20, 2012 9:59:22 GMT -5
Interesting thread. I look forward to reading the reply to Jack's post above.
[Edit: Why does "jack" only show him as having "posts: 1" in total?]
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jack
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Post by jack on Jan 20, 2012 12:14:05 GMT -5
Interesting thread. I look forward to reading the reply to Jack's post above. [Edit: Why does "jack" only show him as having "posts: 1" in total?]I deleted my account because Ted was sending me unfriendly (put mildly) pms. I was just going to post as "guest." Afterwards I decided that that was too much of a hassle. So I started a totally new account as "Jack." I'll just delete Ted's pms without reading them. I don't know why it keeps coming up in small case "J." Jack |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 20, 2012 17:35:00 GMT -5
Just a note, and I am being Mr. Neutral here, but every member can choose from the preferences of your PM page to block a sender. Mr. Neutral is an inside joke.  |
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Post by Morris on Jan 23, 2012 16:21:57 GMT -5
So I started a totally new account as "Jack." Well, we've had our share of disagreements, but I'm still glad you decided to stay as a member! |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jan 28, 2012 9:56:12 GMT -5
I think Jack's point on 2 Cor 4:4 is valid. When John speaks of the 'archon ho kosmos' he is speaking of the rulers of the temple - in each case: John 12:31 it is those men who are about to come and arrest Jesus, John 14:30 is saying the same and in John 16:11 it is those men that are being judged by God for their actions - not Jesus whom they are about to crucify. All Ephesians adds for us is that the spirit at work in those men is of satanic origins - just as was depicted with Judas.
A prince with the power of the air who albeit is a prince with spiritual power, can by no means actually be said to be the God of this age who has given His image to Christ. Rather he is a usurper to the throne that belongs only to Christ. And it is that same pretense that deceives men who share the same spirit.
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Post by Morris on Jan 30, 2012 12:01:58 GMT -5
While doing some study on this I discovered a couple interesting things that I figured I'd share. The phrase "image of God" in 2 Corinthians 4:4 is 'eikon tou theou' in the Greek. This exact same Greek phrase is found in Colossians 1:15, "He is the image of the invisible God" ('eikon tou theou tou aoratou' = 'image of-the God the unseen').
2 Corinthians 4:3,4 says "But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe..." which appears similar to John 12:40, quoting Isaiah, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them".
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