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Post by Morris on Oct 25, 2011 9:36:37 GMT -5
I've been doing a little bit of studying on this recently and found some surprising things (i.e. a bit different than what I had thought).
For discussion; What was the Curse of the Law?
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Post by Once4all on Oct 25, 2011 20:15:02 GMT -5
Great discussion topic!
Below are some verses that might help the discussion. I left out context to keep it short. You'll need to read more from the areas the verses came from.
Deuteronomy 27:26 NASB
(26) 'Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.'
Deuteronomy 29:21 NASB
(21) "Then the LORD will single him out for adversity from all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant which are written in this book of the law.
Joshua 8:34 NASB
(34) Then afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessing and the curse, according to all that is written in the book of the law.
Nehemiah 10:29 NASB
(29) are joining with their kinsmen, their nobles, and are taking on themselves a curse and an oath to walk in God's law, which was given through Moses, God's servant, and to keep and to observe all the commandments of GOD our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes;
Daniel 9:11-12 NASB
(11) "Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him.
(12) "Thus He has confirmed His words which He had spoken against us and against our rulers who ruled us, to bring on us great calamity; for under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what was done to Jerusalem.
Galatians 3:10-14 NASB
(10) For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
(11) Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
(12) However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
(13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--
(14) in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
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Post by Morris on Oct 26, 2011 16:35:04 GMT -5
Great discussion topic! Below are some verses that might help the discussion. I left out context to keep it short. You'll need to read more from the areas the verses came from. Deuteronomy 27:26 NASB (26) 'Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.' I see you're following along the same things I turned up. Here's a brief addition to the discussion; Deuteronomy 27:26 flows right into chapter 28 which is divided into two main sections; the " blessings" at verse 1 and the " curses" at verse 15. Beginning at Deuteronomy 28:16 we have the curses listed, starting with " Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country". I find interesting contrasts in Hebrews 11:16, " But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country*. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them". (* This word doesn't actually appear here, but rather a few verses back. However, it has an extremely important aspect to it that doesn't come across in the English; this isn't speaking of just any country or nation, but "a father-land". Not merely a "land" as Abraham was promised [see Acts 7:3], but a "father-land", as was promised to his "seed" and of which we are co-heirs.) Hebrews 12:22,24, " But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels... to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel". Hebrews 13:12-15, " Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name". The opposite of that curse given in Deuteronomy is the blessing in Deuteronomy 28:3, " Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country". This is what Jesus has done. Ephesians 1:3, " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ". That "heavenly" is the same word as what we saw in Hebrews 11:16 and 12:22. Out of time for now, but this kind of thing leaves me in awe! (And not very brief.  ) |
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Post by Once4all on Oct 28, 2011 19:26:36 GMT -5
Great discussion topic! Below are some verses that might help the discussion. I left out context to keep it short. You'll need to read more from the areas the verses came from. Deuteronomy 27:26 NASB (26) 'Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.' I see you're following along the same things I turned up. Here's a brief addition to the discussion; Deuteronomy 27:26 flows right into chapter 28 which is divided into two main sections; the " blessings" at verse 1 and the " curses" at verse 15. Beginning at Deuteronomy 28:16 we have the curses listed, starting with " Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country". I find interesting contrasts in Hebrews 11:16, " But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country*. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them". (* This word doesn't actually appear here, but rather a few verses back. However, it has an extremely important aspect to it that doesn't come across in the English; this isn't speaking of just any country or nation, but "a father-land". Not merely a "land" as Abraham was promised [see Acts 7:3], but a "father-land", as was promised to his "seed" and of which we are co-heirs.) Hebrews 12:22,24, " But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels... to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel". Hebrews 13:12-15, " Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name". The opposite of that curse given in Deuteronomy is the blessing in Deuteronomy 28:3, " Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country". This is what Jesus has done. Ephesians 1:3, " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ". That "heavenly" is the same word as what we saw in Hebrews 11:16 and 12:22. Out of time for now, but this kind of thing leaves me in awe! (And not very brief. ) Do you think the state of being either blessed or cursed takes place in the same "country" and "city"? These verses from Revelation came to mind: Revelation 22:14-15 NASB (14) Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. (15) Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. Those permitted inside the city are the blessed; those outside the city are the cursed. Another thing I noted from your discussion: Hebrews 13:12-14 NASB (12) Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. (13) So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach. (14) For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come. The cursed are outside the gates of the city (Revelation 22:15). Jesus suffered outside the gate (Hebrews 13:12) Jesus became a curse for us (Galatians 3:13) Galatians 3:13-14 NASB (13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- (14) in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Going back to Hebrews 13:14, where you underlined some words: For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. Even after the death and resurrection of Jesus, the disciples were still looking forward to that city to come. I'm wondering how this is viewed in a preterist paradigm. Is the country and city to come synonymous with the kingdom of God? That's all for now. |
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Post by Morris on Oct 29, 2011 23:23:22 GMT -5
Do you think the state of being either blessed or cursed takes place in the same "country" and "city"? I'm not sure I follow. Same country and city as what? My comments on this are that; 1) Being blessed is the result of having your robe washed/doing His commandments, 2) The blessing results in the right to the tree of life and to enter the city by the gate. This is the same as in Deuteronomy 28, where obeying results in being blessed in the city and the country, and disobedience results in being cursed in the city or the country. What really sticks out to me is the way in which the city may be entered; " by the gates". It reminds my of " I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me". Ya, there is some heavy symbolism here with deep spiritual meanings. I don't think I've fully grasped them yet. But that then directly conflicts with what the author just said in the previous chapter, saying " But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem", and " we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken". The first is the perfect past tense, and the second is active present. When I look at Hebrews 13:14, I see that "we have", "we seek", and " one to come" are also all in the present tense. So I either have to say that the author is confused, has more than one city in mind, or is basically saying the same thing as in the previous chapter. I believe the latter one; as there are things that we have and yet also are receiving. (For instance, Hebrews 10:10 says " we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all", and just four verses later says, " For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified". It is both past and present.) Basically, my view is that I can't focus on only one verse that makes it appear as only future when others also use past and present. As you know, I'm not personally obliged to fit this into the preterist paradigm. I don't worry about if the kingdom was yet to come because Jesus Himself said " surely the kingdom of God has come upon you". In Acts, they preached the kingdom of God, even " explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God", yet they never spoke about "to come". In fact, they got into trouble because they preached a King other than Caesar. Look at the Beatitudes for example. There are eight "blessed" sayings that have either "they shall" (future) or " their's is" (present). They shall, be comforted, inherit the earth, be filled, obtain mercy, see God, be called sons of God, but their's is the kingdom of heaven. There's a whole lot more I could say, but that's my view and not the topic of the thread. Now, to answer the question, yes I think they are more or less synonymous. The kingdom of God is the habitation of His people, those who call Him King. I got to stop here as it's late. |
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Post by Once4all on Oct 30, 2011 19:12:20 GMT -5
Do you think the state of being either blessed or cursed takes place in the same "country" and "city"? I'm not sure I follow. Same country and city as what? ... Sorry for not being more clear! What I meant to ask is: Is the city/country where some are blessed the same city/country where some are cursed? If the city/country is the same as the kingdom of God, then there are people in the kingdom of God who are cursed as well as those who are blessed? |
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Post by Morris on Oct 31, 2011 11:10:26 GMT -5
Sorry for not being more clear! What I meant to ask is: Is the city/country where some are blessed the same city/country where some are cursed? If the city/country is the same as the kingdom of God, then there are people in the kingdom of God who are cursed as well as those who are blessed? Oh, I see what you're saying. My view is no, the city/country that the blessed are in is not the same as the city/country that cursed are in. One of the reasons I say that is because, in the new testament sense, these aren't 'places' but rather states of being. If I take the statements in Deuteronomy 28 regarding being blessed or cursed in the city and the country (field) I see that what it is really pointing out is that if you are blessed, you are blessed regardless of where you are, be it in a city or out in field. In other words, the blessing (or curse) isn't geographically dependent, but dependent on on whom you serve and obey; the Lord, or other gods. [Slight Sidetrack] An interesting example is seen in Ezekiel 7:15 (that I read while studying for another thread) that uses the same words for city and country/field, " The sword is outside, And the pestilence and famine within. Whoever is in the field will die by the sword; And whoever is in the city, Famine and Pestilence will devour him". Then note what Jeremiah says in 14:18, " If I go out to the field, Then behold, those slain with the sword! And if I enter the city, Then behold, those sick from famine! Yes, both prophet and priest go about in a land they do not know". The blessings and curses are not places but are states of being. But now I'll flip the coin and look at it from less of a natural perspective and more of a spiritual one (as hinted at in Hebrews). If we take "city" to symbolically represent Jerusalem, and "country" (field) to represent Israel, it becomes possible to be cursed while in them. This idea is supported by the new testament in Galatians, " For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse". Therefore it was possible for someone to be of Israel and be cursed. However, when Christ came He created a new "Israel" which was not dependent on a political entity or a particular genealogical people group. This Israel's membership was redefined according to faith, and is the "better country" spoken of in Hebrews 11, and the "city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" of Hebrews 12 to which those of faith have come. Both they and us have gone from the city and country of our failed works, and thus a curse, to the city and country of faith in the perfect works of Jesus, and thus His blessings. But I should probably clarify too that it isn't because someone was in natural Jerusalem or Israel that they were cursed; it was the law that brought the curse, not the promise. That is why Jesus provided the way to fully uphold the law by doing so Himself. When we place our faith in Him, in His works, and not our own. Thus we read in Romans 3:27, " Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith". The law of works brings the curse if it cannot be absolutely maintained. The law of faith, that is, the law of faith in the works of Christ, allows us to absolutely maintain God's law. Note that these are not two different laws, just two different ways of approaching one law; God's law. As Paul says a few verses later in Romans 3:31, " Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law". We establish the law, not on our merit, but on our trust in Christ's merit. Once we think of what the law is and represents, that being the character of God, and we think of the two approaches to the law (the character of God), we can more clearly see why the law brings the curse. When we attempt to absolutely maintain the law of our own merit, we are claiming to have to character of God! No wonder it brings a curse! It is both blasphemous and false. There is only One that can absolutely maintain the character of God and that is God! Therein lies the goodness and mercy of God, that He gives of Himself so that we can "partake of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). We are blessed, in Christ! |
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