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Post by Once4all on Aug 9, 2011 16:44:01 GMT -5
This is another quote from the book, "The Real Devil" -
The author is not a preterist, so this quote appears in the context of how inspired scripture often does not correct false beliefs (in the above case, the assumption being that the author of Enoch got it wrong by writing that the final judgment would be in the time of Jesus), but that the misinformation still served to point to the arrival of the Messiah.
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 10, 2011 7:21:12 GMT -5
Good morning Bev.
Isn't it interesting that we all have a tendency (or used to) when reading passages within the Bible with pre-conceived notions which end up tainting the "literal" fulfillment within the time frame of Jesus. I know I did, and still catch myself trying to overcome that bad habit in other parts of scripture. I'm surprised that the author even brought up Enoch, since the futurists I know wouldn't go near the books of the Apocrypha.
Blessings.
Steve
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Post by Morris on Aug 10, 2011 13:32:40 GMT -5
That is so cool, Bev! I've never heard about this.
My thoughts are that, while writings that do not appear in the canonical scriptures are not to be considered inspired, we are not to assume that there are no elements or portions of truth within them. In this case, we know that there was truth statement within Enoch because an inspired writing told us so. It is the same as Paul quoting 'pagan' writings because there was found within them real truth statements. After all, truth is truth and is independent of the source. (A person can say something that is true simply out of pure ignorant luck, but the fact remains that it was still truth, even if the person doesn't understand what they even said.)
It would appear that this truth was preserved in the Book of Enoch even if other things may or may not be. The passage mentioned says, "And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: <and> to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations".
Then it goes on to say, "and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear: [and it shall prove a blessing; the works of righteousness and truth] shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore. And then shall all the righteous escape, And shall live till they beget thousands of children, And all the days of their youth and their old age Shall they complete in peace".
When I read all this I had to do some searching to find this (apologizing for the length);
John 5:18-30,
"Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." "
I think Jesus was speaking of the same judgment as in Enoch (interpreting Enoch from John and not the other way around). For instance, Jesus says "and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life" while Enoch has "And then shall all the righteous escape, And shall live till they beget thousands of children".
It reminds me of Acts 2:41 which says, "and that day about three thousand souls were added to them", Romans 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all", and finally 1 Corinthians 4:15, "For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel".
Wow, there is so much that can be gleaned from this that I've only scratched the surface. I can't help but see similarities between that passage in Enoch and statements in the New Testament.
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Post by Once4all on Aug 10, 2011 23:35:00 GMT -5
Good morning Bev. Isn't it interesting that we all have a tendency (or used to) when reading passages within the Bible with pre-conceived notions which end up tainting the "literal" fulfillment within the time frame of Jesus. I know I did, and still catch myself trying to overcome that bad habit in other parts of scripture. I'm surprised that the author even brought up Enoch, since the futurists I know wouldn't go near the books of the Apocrypha. Blessings. Steve Hi Steve. Yes, that's true. And not only regarding fulfillment, but all kinds of subjects. We see what we already believe to be true and unconsciously filter out other possibilities. I find it important to keep reading the entire Bible, over and over again. The more familiar a person becomes with scripture, the more readily he or she will see the similarities and cohesiveness among verses and stories scattered throughout the text, as Morris has done in his post here. People who limit their reading to the New Testament (which many Christians do, because they've been taught that the Old Testament is "just history"), really stifle their growth in the Word. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 12, 2011 20:07:12 GMT -5
I find audience revelancy to be more and more what the scriptures address that we most often miss. The Hellenists of the 1st century had bought into all sorts of ideas that were an admixture of scripture and Greek philosophy (not unlike today!). And they too had become literalists with a spiritualizing bent when interpreting scripture. The book of Enoch was obviously not a book written or even transcribed from the original Enoch, but a record of the legends/ folklore that had been passed down. Which to me is why the NT writers often seem to be speaking to these ideas the people already held. Our problem is thus to know what they believed that was being corrected - which is much like trying to witness to a Mormon or JW. If you don't know what the error is in their understanding, how can you address it?
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