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Post by Once4all on Jul 29, 2011 23:22:14 GMT -5
I was reading through this Sunday's scripture reading at church and realized there was something noticeably missing from Romans 8:31-39, specifically in verses 35, 38, and 39 (the verses that list the things that will not separate us from God and Christ). What is missing is sin!
Something else I noticed about the two lists is that the list of things that will not separate us from the love of Christ (verse 35) are all external, uncreated things. Things that affect our life in the body: tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, sword.
The things that will not separate us from the love of God (verses 38-39) are all created things or things which God controls: life, death, angels, rulers, powers, the present, the future, height, depth, or any other created thing.
Notice, also, how those things relate to the armor of God in Ephesians:
Ephesians 6:11-12 NASB
(11) Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
(12) For our struggle is not against flesh and blood (the things listed in Romans 8:35), but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places (the things listed in Romans 8:38-39).
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Post by Allyn on Jul 30, 2011 7:57:09 GMT -5
I was reading through this Sunday's scripture reading at church and realized there was something noticeably missing from Romans 8:31-39, specifically in verses 35, 38, and 39 (the verses that list the things that will not separate us from God and Christ). What is missing is sin!
Something else I noticed about the two lists is that the list of things that will not separate us from the love of Christ (verse 35) are all external, uncreated things. Things that affect our life in the body: tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, sword. The things that will not separate us from the love of God (verses 38-39) are all created things or things which God controls: life, death, angels, rulers, powers, the present, the future, height, depth, or any other created thing. Notice, also, how those things relate to the armor of God in Ephesians: Ephesians 6:11-12 NASB (11) Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. (12) For our struggle is not against flesh and blood (the things listed in Romans 8:35), but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places (the things listed in Romans 8:38-39).
I think you caught something very importnt. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 30, 2011 8:27:46 GMT -5
Of those 7 things listed, 3 are brought by men and the other's by God - His 4 sore judgments. This is a study in contrasts to show that nothing in heaven or earth, brought by men or angels, by natural or supernatural power - from this present time into the future; can any more bring death upon the saints of the Lord. This is what the quote from Psalm 44 is about, when David was lamenting how the Lord had proved Israel but how his hope in God was looking forth to the time when Messiah would arise and take the throne - the time of resurrection was the hope of Israel that Paul is now proclaiming was theirs (ours!).
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Post by Once4all on Jul 30, 2011 15:04:41 GMT -5
Of those 7 things listed, 3 are brought by men and the other's by God - His 4 sore judgments. This is a study in contrasts to show that nothing in heaven or earth, brought by men or angels, by natural or supernatural power - from this present time into the future; can any more bring death upon the saints of the Lord. This is what the quote from Psalm 44 is about, when David was lamenting how the Lord had proved Israel but how his hope in God was looking forth to the time when Messiah would arise and take the throne - the time of resurrection was the hope of Israel that Paul is now proclaiming was theirs (ours!). Since the only list that contains seven items are from verse 35, I assume you are referring to these: Things that affect our life in the body: tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, sword. I don't see where three are brought by men and the others by God. They are all things affecting our physical welfare. Would you specify which is which? As an aside, the word translated famine can also be translated as hunger (and, in fact is in other verses). Since it is mentioned along with nakedness, I think hunger might be the better translation. Food and clothing are often paired as needs of the body. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 31, 2011 8:03:04 GMT -5
Well those 7 things that affect the body, are things that bring death. I was thinking of Ezek 14:21 which 4 are often repeated elsewhere when God is sending judgment (Rev 6). It was just a thought I had in looking at all 7.
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Post by Morris on Jul 31, 2011 13:33:51 GMT -5
Very interesting thoughts folks. I'll have to give this a thorough study when I have some time to do some deeper digging. One thing I'll comment on (which some may or may not agree with) is that I don't believe there's any significant distinguishing between the "love of Christ" and the "love of God" and so that might cause me to come at this from a different angle. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
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Post by Morris on Aug 2, 2011 16:28:23 GMT -5
Well, I've had a bit of time to examine the passage more closely and some things did come out and speak to me. Bev really did notice something quite interesting here and I hope to expand on that. Therefore, the following is my own little study that looks into suffering and also love. I hope others get something out of it to.
Bev noted two lists, one in Romans 8:35 and the other in Romans 8:38-39. I'd like to offer that this entire section speaks of the fact that they were going to suffer in this life ("He who did not spare His own Son"), but that suffering is nothing compared to the glory of the adoption as children of God. Verses 12-17 speak about being adopted, being a heir of God, and joint-heir with Christ, "if indeed we suffer with Him".
This suffering isn't a self-inflicted suffering because we deserve nothing better, but is specifically for His sake. I'll show it in this passage as well, but I first would like to look at what Jesus said about it. Several examples are; Matthew 5:11, Matthew 10:18,22,39, Matthew 16:25, Matthew 19:29, Matthew 24:9, Mark 8:35, Mark 10:29,30, Mark 13:9, Luke 21:17, and many more, but I'd like to really look at Luke 21:10-19,
"Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience possess your souls."
For His name's sake, they were going to be subject to war, earthquake, famine, pestilence, persecution, betrayal, and even death! YET! And I emphasize YET, "not a hair of your head shall be lost"! Jesus isn't speaking of immunity to the natural things and in fact specifically said the opposite as in Matthew 24:9,
"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake", and John 16:33, "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world".
Paul, in Romans chapter 8, speaks the same message. He tells them that they will suffer tribulations, but be of good cheer, none of these trials can separate them "from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord", not "tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword".
And just like Jesus, Paul says that these things threaten their very lives, but for His sake, quoting Psalm 44:22, "As it is written: For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter". So, the list in verse 35 encompasses the threats that these Christians had to their lives, and Paul encourages them that these threats were overcome by the love and adoption of God, and were not comparable to these things (Romans 8:18).
Remember what Paul is saying here. In verse 28 he says, "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose", and then in verse 37, after noting all these threats to their lives, says "Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us".
The message is a love relationship which conquers all things. The list of verse 35, the threats of life and limb, cannot win. Notice Paul's next statement in verse 38, "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life...". Paul is continuing and expanding upon the list of verse 35 to conclude that "nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord".
And as Bev showed us in Ephesians 6:11-12, neither the things we do not struggle against (first list), nor the things with which we do struggle against (the second expanded list), can separate us from the love of God. So what can separate us from the love of God?
I believe that a lack of love toward God on our part is what separates us from the love of God. Not that God's love ceases, but we become disconnected from it. I say this because of what I read in 1 John 4:9, "In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him". The love of God was in His offering Christ as the ultimate sacrifice for us. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life".
Ephesians 2:4,5, "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)". Also, Ephesians 5:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:16, 1 John 4:11. Even right here in Romans 8:34-35 we see that the love of Christ is through His death, "It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?"
1 John 4:19, "We love Him because He first loved us". Romans 5:8, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us".
The love of God for us is not mere emotion, but of action. And that action, the sacrifice of Christ, cannot be taken away or undone; it is factual, historical event. The question is always our response to His love. Do we respond in kind? That is, with love, in which case there is nothing that can happen to us to take away Christ's work on the cross for us. Or do we dismiss that love and take no part in it?
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Post by Once4all on Aug 2, 2011 21:37:07 GMT -5
Great job, Sheldon!
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Post by Morris on Aug 4, 2011 11:14:26 GMT -5
Some further thoughts that I've had in connection to my studying. Not too long ago I was asked "Where did Moses get the law that he was judging by and teaching in Ex. 18?" My answer to this was the following: Read more: livebytr.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=cc&action=display&thread=831#ixzz1U4nBZ1YfThis seems to be identical to what Jesus said in Luke 21:14,15 " Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist". This idea of God speaking by man isn't new, obviously, but it just stuck out to me. As we see in Acts 3:21, " ...which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began". It was God that spoke but it was heard through the mouth of human prophets. Jesus said the same would continue to happen. More coming... |
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Post by Allyn on Aug 4, 2011 12:17:35 GMT -5
Some further thoughts that I've had in connection to my studying. Not too long ago I was asked "Where did Moses get the law that he was judging by and teaching in Ex. 18?" My answer to this was the following: Read more: livebytr.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=cc&action=display&thread=831#ixzz1U4nBZ1YfThis seems to be identical to what Jesus said in Luke 21:14,15 " Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist". This idea of God speaking by man isn't new, obviously, but it just stuck out to me. As we see in Acts 3:21, " ...which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began". It was God that spoke but it was heard through the mouth of human prophets. Jesus said the same would continue to happen. More coming... Not only does God speak through men, He also preforms His will using the sin of men sometimes. For example Samson sinned greatly before God but his sin was used to defeat the Philistines. This did not make Samson's sin righteous before God but God is willing and able to make things go His way any way He chooses. |
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Post by Morris on Aug 4, 2011 12:29:22 GMT -5
Not only does God speak through men, He also preforms His will using the sin of men sometimes. For example Samson sinned greatly before God but his sin was used to defeat the Philistines. This did not make Samson's sin righteous before God but God is willing and able to make things go His way any way He chooses. Indeed. That's what makes God's sovereignty what it is; our will (meaning mankind's will), even when opposed to His and enacted out that way (which is generally the case), cannot override or thwart His sovereignty. I think this is because He already knows our choices. |
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