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Post by Once4all on Jun 25, 2011 22:01:47 GMT -5
(James 4:7 NASB) Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.Who or what is this devil that we are to resist? The context tells us: James 4:1-10 NASB
(1) What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? (See also James 1:14-16) The next two verses provide examples: (2) You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask.
(3) You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. Giving in to these "pleasures that wage war in your members" is referred to as having "friendship with the world": (4) You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. What is this "spirit" that God jealously desires?
(5) Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"?
(6) But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."
I would say that it is the "spirit of holiness" (Romans 1:4), the "spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:2), "spirit of faith" (2 Corinthians 4:13), "spirit of gentleness" (Galatians 6:1), "spirit of wisdom" (Ephesians 1:17), and all other such adjectives that describe the "spirit of God" that is in you (Romans 8:9, 11, 14; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 7:40; etc.) When He says that He jealously desires the spirit, He means that He desires that His spirit be manifest in us (1 Corinthians 12:7, 2 Corinthians 3:3). We manifest God's spirit in us when we submit to God and resist the enticement of our own desires. This enticement that we must resist, that wages war in our members, is described as "the devil": (7) Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
(8) Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. We must cleanse our hands and purify our hearts by resisting the devil within us—the temptations of our own flesh. (9) Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom.
(10) Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.
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Post by Morris on Jun 26, 2011 21:31:05 GMT -5
I have been leaning to these types of thoughts myself over the past few years. More and more so, actually. But, at least for me, I haven't been able to come to a confident assurance to be absolutely convinced that this applies to all passages involving the devil (or demons).
The devil and our desires, our will, are certainly intertwined when it comes to temptation and sin. And that makes sense when you think about how walking in the Spirit requires the yielding of our will to His, as opposed to walking in the flesh and maintaining our own will as preeminent.
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Post by Once4all on Jun 27, 2011 17:32:43 GMT -5
I have been leaning to these types of thoughts myself over the past few years. More and more so, actually. But, at least for me, I haven't been able to come to a confident assurance to be absolutely convinced that this applies to all passages involving the devil (or demons). The devil and our desires, our will, are certainly intertwined when it comes to temptation and sin. And that makes sense when you think about how walking in the Spirit requires the yielding of our will to His, as opposed to walking in the flesh and maintaining our own will as preeminent. I'm in the same place, Sheldon. More and more so, as you say. Reading passages like the above—which I've read dozens of times before without really analyzing how "the devil" is being used—just makes for a stronger case that "the devil" is not a personal being. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jun 27, 2011 22:27:09 GMT -5
Then who tempted Jesus in Mat 4:1? Because the interaction described seems external to Jesus' own thoughts.
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Post by Morris on Jun 28, 2011 9:28:01 GMT -5
Then who tempted Jesus in Mat 4:1? Because the interaction described seems external to Jesus' own thoughts. It is precisely because of passages like this one, Matthew 8:32, etc. that cause me to say "I haven't been able to come to a confident assurance to be absolutely convinced that this applies to all passages involving the devil (or demons)". In the Matthew passage I mentioned, it says " So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine", and they had a causal effect on those pigs. It appears to me to be far and above the general personification such as that seen done with 'wisdom'. For example, we don't read about men running to a city to proclaim that they saw that " wisdom is justified by all her children", but we do read of men that ran into a city " and told everything, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men". Here's a quick note of interest though; the Greek word that appears as "demon-possessed" or "a devil", is found in each of the four Gospels but nowhere else in the NT. So if the concept was Greek or Roman, it's odd that it only appears in the Gospels (half of which are in the Gospel of Matthew, considered the Gospel to the Jews). However, it can be looked at from a different perspective too. What if we are looking at a Jewish concept from a 'Roman/Greek' perspective. For an example of this I look at the scapegoat and compare it with the demons sent into the pigs. Leviticus 16:20-22, " And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat. Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness." I can certainly see the connection between sin being placed onto the goat and an 'evil spirit' being placed onto a pig. So, with all this rambling, I still find myself in a place of uncertainty but with a non-dogmatic leaning toward the devil/demons not existing as true beings. |
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Post by Once4all on Jun 30, 2011 18:16:07 GMT -5
Morris, that was an interesting connection you made between the demons going into the herd of swine and the sins of the people being taken into the wilderness in the scapegoat.
As for Jesus' temptations in the wilderness, I don't have any problem seeing it as being within himself, even though it is described to us as though it is external. He did not begin to "hear" the temptations until he had fasted and became hungry... a weakened state of mind.
The first temptation was to question who he was. At his baptism, God said he was His Son. He needed to take God at His word and not attempt to prove it by doing a miracle (turning stones into bread).
The second temptation is combating the same thing... questioning whether he is truly the Son of God. Will he believe God's word, or prove it to himself by risking his life?
And the third temptation was over following his own will, his own interests (worshiping Satan) or humbling himself ("emptying himself" Philippians 2:7) and following God's will (worshiping and serving God only.)
To accomplish his mission, Jesus needed to not doubt who he was and to be completely obedient to God. These temptations show us that he overcame the doubt and denied himself to serve God.
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Post by Morris on Jun 30, 2011 19:14:57 GMT -5
As for Jesus' temptations in the wilderness, I don't have any problem seeing it as being within himself, even though it is described to us as though it is external. Me neither. However, just because I can see it that way doesn't mean that I am fully convinced that it is that way. I'm just 'mostly' convinced.  |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 4, 2011 10:39:22 GMT -5
If the bible speaks of angels and devils as spritual beings but is really just talking about the personification of our own thoughts and desires; then perhaps we ought to think that the god within is only a manifestation of our own higher sensibilities and is not really a separate Person at all who is able to create the world and all that lies within? Thus we are gods and all power lies with us - which now makes us one with the heathens and not Christ. I wonder how that will work for the raising of the dead, the judgment the souls of men must face before their Creator and the hope He gives them for their eternal destiny because of their faith in Christ - which is what separates us from the beasts. Well some of us at least - since apparently the Gentiles were never able to rise above such musings...about fairies and such.
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Post by Once4all on Jul 4, 2011 22:57:34 GMT -5
If the bible speaks of angels and devils as spritual beings but is really just talking about the personification of our own thoughts and desires; then perhaps we ought to think that the god within is only a manifestation of our own higher sensibilities and is not really a separate Person at all who is able to create the world and all that lies within? ... I believe there are some people/groups who actually think that way, but to me it seems to be a slippery slope fallacy: discrediting an idea or argument by suggesting it may lead to something "worse." |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 5, 2011 9:38:10 GMT -5
When James likens the war within from the struggle with fleshly temptations as if a devil were in possession of our spirits, is that not because such a phenomenon was possible amongst the world who is at enmity with God? Just because James makes such an analogy ought not to lead us to think that there was no actual devil, any more than he was saying our acting like him meant it was possible for him to take possession of our spirit unawares. Rightly dividing the word must take context and genre into consideration as well as knowing that prior truth is not being overturned either. There are spiritual beings that inhabit the unseen realm according to scripture, who also serve the Lord and minister to the saints. Just as there are men in our world who can be seen to operate the same. And knowing our Lord inhabits such a place ought to keep us from speculating that such references to things there are merely to be understood metaphorically. The Lord spoke of a 'real' devil, of men who were possessed by devils which could be cast out, as well as of men who behaved as if they were in league with him because they rejected the truth to believe a lie. Is the latter to be our only understanding of devils? Then how are you going to explain the phenomenon that actual demonic possession wrought in men who had no such supernatural powers of their own? From Jannes & Jambre in the OT to some voudoun shaman/ withchdoctor today? Nor is ESP a power that belongs 'naturally' to humans. Any more than the gifts given by the Holy Spirit are powers that originate from within ourselves.
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Post by Morris on Jul 5, 2011 13:09:26 GMT -5
It is exactly the reasons that Robin mentions that keep me from being fully convinced of the devil [not*] being a true being. I have missionary friends who have been to Africa on several extended occasions (lasting between a few months to a year at a time). They confirm how truly real the supernatural realm is there; witnessing and seeing things that not only put fear in them, but caused them to understand why the people there fear and respect the spiritual battles that exist, holding on to certain 'superstitions' even after converting to Christ.
If it wasn't for these 'testimonies', if you will, I would have no hesitation believing the devil is a personification. But the fact of the matter is that we in North America are generally not exposed to, or aware of, the spiritual realm like those in Africa and South America are.
Theologically, I can't understand or explain the devil or demons as existing as beings, yet neither can I understand or explain other things without him/it (or them) existing as beings. I am far more convinced of hell being the complete and total annihilation of a being than I am of this topic.
P.S. One thing I do know is that we cannot use the potential existence of the devil or demons as excuses for our own desires, behaviour, and selfish wills.
Edit (again): I just noticed how that first sentence of mine read and corrected it. In other words, I'm saying that if it wasn't for these 'extra-natural' occurrences, I would be fully convinced that a spiritual being known as the devil did not exist.
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Post by Once4all on Jul 5, 2011 20:14:51 GMT -5
Robin and Sheldon, thank you for the comments. Though they leave me a little confused. Well, especially Robin's (since I seem to recall that Sheldon has not entirely embraced preterism; or am I wrong about that?)
Anyway, both of you talk about the devil's influence today, yet doesn't preterist belief have the devil defeated, cast out, no more?
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Post by Morris on Jul 5, 2011 21:44:11 GMT -5
Well, I may not be a preterist but I still believe that there are a lot of truths within preterism (one of the reasons I participate in this forum).  And regardless of whether the devil is a real being or a personification, I believe that he\it is defeated. So do I believe satan to be defeated? Yes; in Christ. Do I believe sin has come to an end and everlasting righteousness brought forth? Yes; in Christ. Do I believe that the enmity between man and God has been removed and reconciliation made? Yes; in Christ. Do I believe I have been born again and made a new creation? Yes; in Christ. I'm sure you get my point. These are all true, as far as I can discern from scripture, but only when in Christ Jesus, and through Him. How can the devil be defeated if he is only a personification? The same way even if he isn't, his 'power' has been striped from him. And as a matter of what I'd consider fact, it is because satan is defeated that all those other things I listed can be true. Bev, you asked, If we believe the devil to be a personification of our selfish desires, can we truly say that they have no influence today or that they have been removed from us? Speaking for myself, I still battle with desires and unwillingness. They are not absent from me, but their power has been removed in Christ. For if they lead me to sin I know that the blood of Jesus has covered me. My point here is that, whether the devil is a real entity or a personification, it is his power that has been defeated, not his existence. |
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Post by Once4all on Jul 5, 2011 21:56:07 GMT -5
Yet, even if the devil is a real entity, he is not roaming around tempting anyone.
(Revelation 20:10 NASB) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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Post by Morris on Jul 6, 2011 8:56:56 GMT -5
I don't think you'll like my answer to this one, Bev, but we are reading figurative language here (at least that's what I am lead to believe). I mean, I don't think we are speaking of a literal lake in which things can literally be placed into it. How would 'death' be placed into a lake?
To my knowledge it can't be, yet the imagery reminds me of Jesus' words in John 11:25-26, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?".
Death may still exist but it's power and it's effectiveness have been 'consumed' (as burnt up in a great fire) by the work of Jesus Christ. May I also make the suggestion that judgment is by fire now; the only question is what will be judged, will it be sin and death that is consumed, or will it be us?
This judgment is on a personal basis. That is why death may be consumed for me now that I'm in Christ, and yet death still be a real threat to someone outside of Christ and His mercy and love. The same goes for sin. I know that Jesus' blood has covered all my sin so perfectly that I now participate in God's righteousness and that He says He will inhabit (tabernacle) within me. But that doesn't mean that sin doesn't still exist to someone outside of Christ. Each one must be reconciled to God themselves.
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Post by Once4all on Jul 6, 2011 20:06:57 GMT -5
Sheldon, I didn't mean to imply that I believed in a literal lake of fire. I don't. The point I was trying to make is that Scripture says that the devil is defeated. If the devil is a literal being, then he can't be still prowling around.
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Post by Morris on Jul 7, 2011 9:49:50 GMT -5
My point about the lake not being literal wasn't to suggest you might believe such, but was about our understanding of defeated. The connection I was attempting to point out was that the devil was defeated in a similar way to how death was defeated; both were cast into the lake of fire. The point I was trying to make is that Scripture says that the devil is defeated. If the devil is a literal being, then he can't be still prowling around. So remember that the devil and death were both defeated in the lake of fire. What I was trying to bring out was that death still exists to those outside Christ. In a sense, death still prowls around. [Side note: It doesn't even matter what a person believes death refers to. No matter what it means it still exists outside of Christ. The alternative is some form of universal salvation which I regard as unscriptural.] This is what I see; death exists and prowls about, looking for victims if you will, yet is defeated in Christ. When someone comes to Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, they 'die' (the sentence of judgment is carried out as it must be) but they continue in life; not of their own but in God's through His Christ. The alternative to death, burial, and resurrection in Christ is simply death, burial, and the end of existence (in my view). This pattern is the same for the devil. He exists (be it as an entity or a personification) and prowls about, looking for victims, and yet is also defeated in Christ. Satan is our accuser and his power comes from law. Think of 1 Corinthians 15:56, " The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law", and John 5:45, " Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you - Moses, in whom you trust". Sin is the 'spearhead', the 'piercer', even the 'poison', that brings death. The power behind that piercing poison is law; the weightiest example of which Moses delivered to the people that all should observe. Without a law to break, no person can be accused of breaking one, and if a person can't be accused, they cannot be condemned to the death of a law-breaker. "Satan" means "accuser". In Christ we cannot be accused. Therefore I say satan has been defeated when I surrendered to Jesus. To summarize, if the devil is defeated such that he no longer exists, neither will there be the existence of sin or death in anyone. These are all interconnected in their existence and in their defeat. Did I clarify my views any better for you? |
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Post by Once4all on Jul 7, 2011 19:42:48 GMT -5
Sheldon, yes, you did a grand job of clarifying! I agree with what you wrote, and I think that the way you laid it out supports more of the idea of the devil that I presented in my OP, rather than as a personal being.
Something to delve into would be what is meant by the lake of fire, since concepts ("death," Rev 20:14), places ("Hades," which may be more a concept than a literal place, Rev 20:14), and people (Rev 20:15) can all be "thrown into it."
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jul 7, 2011 22:17:45 GMT -5
The state we are in now while alive yet having died and risen in Christ is as if we were already in the after death state. There is no devil, no sin and no law to condemn us in that world of which we are now a part.
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Post by Morris on Jul 8, 2011 10:29:02 GMT -5
Sheldon, yes, you did a grand job of clarifying! I agree with what you wrote, and I think that the way you laid it out supports more of the idea of the devil that I presented in my OP, rather than as a personal being. Thanks. As you know, I lean this way as well, but I can't deny that there also seems to be support for him existing as a being too. At this point I have to accept that I simply don't know. Yes, that would be an interesting study. I don't have time at the present to begin one but perhaps after the weekend. (I'll be away all weekend again.) |
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Post by Once4all on Jul 8, 2011 18:48:53 GMT -5
Sheldon, yes, you did a grand job of clarifying! I agree with what you wrote, and I think that the way you laid it out supports more of the idea of the devil that I presented in my OP, rather than as a personal being. Thanks. As you know, I lean this way as well, but I can't deny that there also seems to be support for him existing as a being too. At this point I have to accept that I simply don't know. ... I've just started to read a very interesting and what appears to be well-researched book entitled, "The Real Devil" by Duncan Heaster. The author is a Christadelphian and there are some things in the book I do not agree with, but those are easily overlooked in light of the larger study. He holds an interesting view in that a lot of the Bible (Old and New Testaments) was written to overcome or redirect the people of God away from the pagan beliefs with which they were surrounded while in captivity or exposed to by other peoples and toward the one true God. To use his term, to "deconstruct" the myths of the pagans. Here is part 1 of chapter 1, to get an idea: www.realdevil.info/1-1.htmThe whole book can be read online, which is what I'm doing. If you have a Kindle, do not be tempted to purchase the Kindle version, even though it is only $1.00. The formatting to Kindle format was not done properly and it is horrendous. |
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Post by Allyn on Jul 10, 2011 19:29:42 GMT -5
RonBrown over at carm gave a good study on the subject of satan. I'll share it here:
Satans and Devils in bible prophecy.
If you think that Satan or the Devil is a fallen angel, then your view on Bible prophecy(eschatology) will be built on false mythological assumptions. The enemy is always wicked men, not wicked mythological fallen angels.
The Hebrew word שָׂטָן(satan) which means adversary or withstand, and the Greek word διάβολος(diabolos) which means devil, false accuser or slanderer.
In 1 Kings 11:14, God stirs up an adversary שָׂטָן(satan) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite.
In 1 Samuel 29:2-4 the Philistines told Achish that they didn't want David to be an adversary שָׂטָן(satan) to them.
Ordinary men were called שָׂטָן(satan), or simply adversaries when translated. Same in the new testament.
Peter tries to keep Christ from going to Jerusalem(Mark 8:33), and Christ calls Peter Satan Σατάν(satan) in the Aramaic which means adversary, the same as the Hebrew. The Greek word Σατανᾶς(Satanas) means adversary as well.
The Lord himself can also act as a שָׂטָן(satan) or an adversary.
Numbers 22:22 the angel of the Lord(Christ) is an adversary שָׂטָן(satan) to Balaam.
2 Sam 24:1 and 1 Chron 21:1 record the exact same event. 2 Sam says יְהֹוָה(Yehovah) moved against Israel for the census, while 1 Chron 21:1 says that שָׂטָן(satan) moved against Israel for the census.
In John 6:70 Christ calls Judas a devil διάβολος(diabolos) false accuser or slanderer.
In 1 Tim 3:1-5 Paul says that in the last days "men" shall be διάβολος(diabolos) devils or false accusers.
In 1 Tim 3:11 Paul tells deacons that their wives cannot be διάβολος(diabolos) devils, slanderers or false accusers.
The Devil διάβολος(diabolos) has the power over death. So what is the "devil"? Could it be the wickedness conceived in a man's own heart? Let's find out the answer with the scriptures.
Heb 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, διάβολος(diabolos)15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Natural wicked and sinful desires and tendencies of "men" are satan or the devil, not some fallen angel and his fellow angelic followers.
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He(Christ) was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides(μένω does not depart) in Him(Christ) does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him(cannot be lost); and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Σατανᾶς(Satanas) filled his heart. And Ananias conceived τίθημι(tithēmi) which means placed or laid "Satan" in his own heart.
I hope this helps my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to see how believing in mythological fallen angels can create tons of false assumptions when it comes to Biblical eschatology.
Me here. What I like about this is the use of Scripture. I am not convinced that Satan was not a real entity but it is an interesting study.
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Post by Once4all on Jul 10, 2011 23:58:01 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing that, Allyn. Indeed an interesting study!
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Post by stephenpatrick on Jul 11, 2011 8:07:43 GMT -5
RonBrown over at carm gave a good study on the subject of satan. I'll share it here: Natural wicked and sinful desires and tendencies of "men" are satan or the devil, not some fallen angel and his fellow angelic followers. But if Satan was the sinful desires and tendencies of men, then who or what was tossed into the Lake of Fire? It's obvious those desires are still with us. My current eschatology (preterism, and BCS, which I've become very comfortable with) isn't affected, at least that I can see, with Satan being a real being. |
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Post by Morris on Jul 11, 2011 10:04:17 GMT -5
Very interesting comments folks. Did RobBrown discuss any instance where "שָׂטָן(satan)" had the definitive article?
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Post by Allyn on Jul 11, 2011 11:32:50 GMT -5
RonBrown over at carm gave a good study on the subject of satan. I'll share it here: Natural wicked and sinful desires and tendencies of "men" are satan or the devil, not some fallen angel and his fellow angelic followers. But if Satan was the sinful desires and tendencies of men, then who or what was tossed into the Lake of Fire? It's obvious those desires are still with us. My current eschatology (preterism, and BCS, which I've become very comfortable with) isn't affected, at least that I can see, with Satan being a real being. I think there is some validity in both views. I believe Satan was a real tempter and being the father of sin his offspring is the depraved mind of men. |
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Post by Once4all on Jul 11, 2011 20:14:26 GMT -5
RonBrown over at carm gave a good study on the subject of satan. I'll share it here: Natural wicked and sinful desires and tendencies of "men" are satan or the devil, not some fallen angel and his fellow angelic followers. But if Satan was the sinful desires and tendencies of men, then who or what was tossed into the Lake of Fire? It's obvious those desires are still with us. My current eschatology (preterism, and BCS, which I've become very comfortable with) isn't affected, at least that I can see, with Satan being a real being. I'm not saying I believe this, but something I read somewhere (Don't ya love that: something, somewhere) equated the lake of fire with a cleansing or purging fire. These, now, are my own speculations based on an assumption of the above: Evil, sin, and darkness can be seen as synonyms; as can good, righteousness, and light. (Those aren't assumptions; just identifying scriptural terminology used in the assumptions.) Those in whom there is no sin are spared the cleansing fire because they have nothing to purge. On the other end of the spectrum are those in whom there is no light, in which case their time in the fire is "forever and ever." The "sinful desires and tendencies of men" are purged from them in the fire, after which what remains is released from the fire. Those in whom nothing remains (because there was no light in them), never leave the fire. |
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Post by Morris on Jul 12, 2011 13:05:17 GMT -5
Bev, that sounds very... Catholicy... to me.  Personally, that view (which I realize isn't yours) raises two very strange possibilities. The first is that we can have "goodness, righteousness, and light" of ourselves, enough that, once our "evil, sin, and darkness" has been purged away, we can have access to the presence of the One and Only Holy God. The second is that the "goodness, righteousness, and light" of Christ is not all-sufficient to purge us of all "evil, sin, and darkness" and bring us into that presence of God. If Christ's righteousness can bring God's presence to us as His Holy Spirit, why could it not bring us, as a spirit, into the presence of God? I've done a little studying on "fire" in the NT and it appears (at this early stage) as though it refers to "consuming", not that different from "purging" I guess. But the interesting thing is in the 'when'. It appears as though the 'purging' fire is now, in our present lives (e.g.: Luke 3:16-17, 1 Corinthians 3:9-23). Thus we become more and more like God's Son (Romans 8:29, 11:2, 1 John 3:2). In a way, we are God's sons and daughters despite ourselves. The "consuming" fire appears to be reserved for the time of judgment, the time of death (Hebrews 9:27, Jude 1:21-24). So I guess you could say we have a choice; either go through the purifying fire of the Holy Spirit by faith in Christ (according to His righteousness), or go through the consuming fire of ourselves (according to our righteousness). Well, those are a few of my thoughts so far. |
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