Paul in Athens

[stephenpatrick]

For Jeff.

Acts 17:24-28
God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,
neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;
He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth -- having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings --
to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.


Jeff, How would these verses be looked at in relation to the study of Covenant Creation?
They seem to imply the entirety of the earth, or land mass of the physical world from a physical point of view. (Maybe they are from a physical point of view and now I'm just completely confused)

Also, verse 26 says that God made "also of one blood every nation of men." On first glance of this, the "one blood" seems to be Adam? Adam being understood as the first man.

Since Paul was arguing "in the midst of the Areopagus", his listeners would not be Jews. (I assume a Jew would defile himself if he entered this building) And if that is the case, would Paul use words in a covenantal context in which the gentiles would not understand? Or would they?

I'm not arguing for or against a physical or covenantal understanding of these verses. In your book, you made a very good case that Adam was not the first man. These verses are difficult for me to understand or explain to another within the CC framework. How do you understand these to be.

Thanks.

Steve

[JLVaughn]

Apr 30, 2011 13:14:21 GMT -5 stephenpatrick said:

For Jeff.

Acts 17:24-28
God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,
neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;
He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth -- having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings --
to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.


Jeff, How would these verses be looked at in relation to the study of Covenant Creation?
They seem to imply the entirety of the earth, or land mass of the physical world from a physical point of view. (Maybe they are from a physical point of view and now I'm just completely confused)

Also, verse 26 says that God made "also of one blood every nation of men." On first glance of this, the "one blood" seems to be Adam? Adam being understood as the first man.

Since Paul was arguing "in the midst of the Areopagus", his listeners would not be Jews. (I assume a Jew would defile himself if he entered this building) And if that is the case, would Paul use words in a covenantal context in which the gentiles would not understand? Or would they?

I'm not arguing for or against a physical or covenantal understanding of these verses. In your book, you made a very good case that Adam was not the first man. These verses are difficult for me to understand or explain to another within the CC framework. How do you understand these to be.

Thanks.

Steve

Steve,

Acts 17 gets asked about a lot. It is a difficult passage.

Some things to consider. Paul addressed the, "Men of Athens!" Who were the men of Athens? They were a group of men who were citizens of Athens. All citizens of Athens were subject to and protected by the laws of Athens. They were descendants of the original citizens, who they believe were created by Athena. Only those created as part of Athena's covenant were subject to and protected by Athena's law/covenant.

That is, all Athenians believed in covenant creation with Athena as the god of their covenant.

If Paul was claiming he and the Athenians were descended from a common ancestor, they would have disputed it. That they didn't dispute it, demonstrates Paul had something else in mind. (Or at least, that they understood Paul's words in a way that is foreign to us.)

That's a start. Does that make sense?

[stephenpatrick]

Apr 30, 2011 17:49:10 GMT -5 JLVaughn said:

Acts 17 gets asked about a lot. It is a difficult passage.

Some things to consider. Paul addressed the, "Men of Athens!" Who were the men of Athens? They were a group of men who were citizens of Athens. All citizens of Athens were subject to and protected by the laws of Athens. They were descendants of the original citizens, who they believe were created by Athena. Only those created as part of Athena's covenant were subject to and protected by Athena's law/covenant.

That is, all Athenians believed in covenant creation with Athena as the god of their covenant.

If Paul was claiming he and the Athenians were descended from a common ancestor, they would have disputed it. That they didn't dispute it, demonstrates Paul had something else in mind. (Or at least, that they understood Paul's words in a way that is foreign to us.)

That's a start. Does that make sense?

You've got me thinking now.
Yes, that makes sense.
Please continue.

Take your time in getting back. I know it's the weekend. It rained here all day and I was stuck inside. Finally the sun broke and we might go out for awhile.

[Once4all]

Apr 30, 2011 18:56:31 GMT -5 stephenpatrick said:

Apr 30, 2011 17:49:10 GMT -5 JLVaughn said:

Acts 17 gets asked about a lot. It is a difficult passage.

Some things to consider. Paul addressed the, "Men of Athens!" Who were the men of Athens? They were a group of men who were citizens of Athens. All citizens of Athens were subject to and protected by the laws of Athens. They were descendants of the original citizens, who they believe were created by Athena. Only those created as part of Athena's covenant were subject to and protected by Athena's law/covenant.

That is, all Athenians believed in covenant creation with Athena as the god of their covenant.

If Paul was claiming he and the Athenians were descended from a common ancestor, they would have disputed it. That they didn't dispute it, demonstrates Paul had something else in mind. (Or at least, that they understood Paul's words in a way that is foreign to us.)

That's a start. Does that make sense?

You've got me thinking now.
Yes, that makes sense.
Please continue.

Take your time in getting back. I know it's the weekend. It rained here all day and I was stuck inside. Finally the sun broke and we might go out for awhile.

Let's not overlook that the text tells us that...

(Acts 17:21 NASB) (Now all the Athenians and the strangers visiting there used to spend their time in nothing other than telling or hearing something new.)

In fact, they asked to hear about it:

(Acts 17:19 NASB) And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, "May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming?

They liked hearing about new things and, instead of arguing against it at this time, they wanted to hear more:

(Acts 17:32 NASB) Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, "We shall hear you again concerning this."

So it seems apparent from the text that they were not looking to make arguments against it; at least not on that day, and we don't know about another.

[Morris]

Apr 30, 2011 17:49:10 GMT -5 JLVaughn said:

Some things to consider. Paul addressed the, "Men of Athens!" Who were the men of Athens? They were a group of men who were citizens of Athens.

Is this a safe assumption given verse 21, "For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there..."? No doubt many were citizens but the group as a whole was not. Plus, citizenship could be granted/bought.

All citizens of Athens were subject to and protected by the laws of Athens. They were descendants of the original citizens, who they believe were created by Athena. Only those created as part of Athena's covenant were subject to and protected by Athena's law/covenant.

That is, all Athenians believed in covenant creation with Athena as the god of their covenant.

Do you have a source for Athenian covenant creation that gives further information? I mean, it is very interesting to read about this and made me wonder what the covenant was.

If Paul was claiming he and the Athenians were descended from a common ancestor, they would have disputed it. That they didn't dispute it, demonstrates Paul had something else in mind. (Or at least, that they understood Paul's words in a way that is foreign to us.)

It may not be disputed in the record of that passage but just earlier in verse we read that the people said "You are bringing some strange things to our ears". Given the passage, I think it is just as probable to conclude that Paul was speaking these things to various smaller groups such as "in the marketplace daily".

Then we read that some of the philosophers catch wind of it and wish it further explained in whole (perhaps instead of in piecemeal as they may have first heard it).

So to look at, and give weight to other equally possible assumptions, we could just as easily say that they were interested in the explanation and not the debate. For instance, it is said that those who "were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing." And when Paul spoke of the resurrection, they didn't enter into debate or counter-argument, but "some mocked" while others said "We will hear you again".