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Post by stephenpatrick on Apr 20, 2011 9:17:53 GMT -5
Good morning.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If the death spoken of here is the "Adamic death" (which I believe it is) and
Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14
. . . what "now" are the wages of sin?
These verses were pre-70AD verses, so do they apply to us today?
Just thinking . . . .
I'll try to check back later today. Been really busy at work.
Thanks.
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Post by Allyn on Apr 20, 2011 15:37:02 GMT -5
Good morning. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. If the death spoken of here is the "Adamic death" (which I believe it is) and Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14 . . . what "now" are the wages of sin? These verses were pre-70AD verses, so do they apply to us today? Just thinking . . . . I'll try to check back later today. Been really busy at work. Thanks. Death being cast into the lake of fire is symbolic of its defeat at the cross. Every individual who has not taken on the likeness of Christ through baptism representing the death burial and resurrection of Jesus still has the terms of death upon them. New life comes from the cross at the acceptance of the terms of the cross. Therefore all people of every generation are under obligation to accept or deny Christ. The work of Christ was completely finished when he handed the kingdom over to God but the application of that finished work moves from one generation to the next. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 20, 2011 15:41:31 GMT -5
Well, I can give my thoughts as they are at present but can't go into very much detail at the moment.
I think the next verse gives a good indication of what is being talked about.
Romans 6:23, 7:1
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?"
What we earn for ourselves through sin is death and I think we have two choices in how this will be carried out - after our natural death and it is no longer called Today, Or, we participate in Christ's death.
As long as we live, the wages of sin are still due to us, and we are under the law which pronounces us guilty. I believe that at death this sentence is carried out in its absolute sense. However, Christ has satisfied that sentence on us but offering himself unto death, a death that we can partake of which frees us from the law which brought the condemnation to death.
Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
Romans 6:2
"Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?"
John 14:19
"A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also."
John 11:25,26
"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” "
Sorry that it isn't more fully explained but at least it gives a start.
P.S. edit: More or less what Allyn said is similar to what I wrote above.
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Post by stephenpatrick on Apr 20, 2011 17:08:20 GMT -5
Thanks Allyn and Morris.
I'm not completely settled on this one yet.
Appreciate the replies though. You've given me some things to think about and look up for my studies.
Blessings to you guys.
Steve
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Post by Once4all on Apr 21, 2011 0:35:08 GMT -5
Good morning. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. If the death spoken of here is the "Adamic death" (which I believe it is) and Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14 . . . what "now" are the wages of sin? These verses were pre-70AD verses, so do they apply to us today? Just thinking . . . . I'll try to check back later today. Been really busy at work. Thanks. Hi Steve. What is your definition of "Adamic death"? FWIW, I think the wages of sin is spiritual death. If you see Adamic death as spiritual, then we agree. The death and Hades that are no more (were thrown into the lake of fire) was the holding place of the wicked and righteous who had died physically. They were emptied at the judgment ("... and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds." Revelation 20:13). Now, I believe, there is no more waiting. When we die physically, we are judged immediately. The lake of fire, the second death, is still there for those who do not pass judgment. The wages of their sin is still death (the second death). |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Apr 21, 2011 5:17:28 GMT -5
Good morning. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. If the death spoken of here is the "Adamic death" (which I believe it is) and Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14 . . . what "now" are the wages of sin? These verses were pre-70AD verses, so do they apply to us today? Just thinking . . . . I'll try to check back later today. Been really busy at work. Thanks. Hi Steve. What is your definition of "Adamic death"? FWIW, I think the wages of sin is spiritual death. If you see Adamic death as spiritual, then we agree. The death and Hades that are no more (were thrown into the lake of fire) was the holding place of the wicked and righteous who had died physically. They were emptied at the judgment ("... and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds." Revelation 20:13). Now, I believe, there is no more waiting. When we die physically, we are judged immediately. The lake of fire, the second death, is still there for those who do not pass judgment. The wages of their sin is still death (the second death). Good morning Bev. Thats pretty much how I understand it to be. No arguments from me. If by lake of fire you mean that they will no longer exist, then I would agree with that too. Thanks. Steve |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 21, 2011 12:37:20 GMT -5
Hi Steve. What is your definition of "Adamic death"? FWIW, I think the wages of sin is spiritual death. If you see Adamic death as spiritual, then we agree. The death and Hades that are no more (were thrown into the lake of fire) was the holding place of the wicked and righteous who had died physically. They were emptied at the judgment ("... and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds." Revelation 20:13). Now, I believe, there is no more waiting. When we die physically, we are judged immediately. The lake of fire, the second death, is still there for those who do not pass judgment. The wages of their sin is still death (the second death). Good morning Bev. Thats pretty much how I understand it to be. No arguments from me. If by lake of fire you mean that they will no longer exist, then I would agree with that too. Thanks. Steve Whether the lake of fire means annihilation I am not sure about. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 21, 2011 14:14:55 GMT -5
Whether the lake of fire means annihilation I am not sure about. This is something I'm not completely settled on either. However, through my studies over the past few years I am leaning toward the annihilation side. I also basically agree with you regarding no more delay from death to judgment. |
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Post by JLVaughn on Apr 21, 2011 15:53:20 GMT -5
I also basically agree with you regarding no more delay from death to judgment. What judgment? There is no more judgment. No more death. No more sorrow. No more pain. The message of Rev. 20-22 is, judgment is done. All that is left is for us to enter the holy city or leave, to be in covenant or to be out. Bev, Adamic death is the death Adam suffered in Genesis 3 and his descendants continued to suffer until AD 70. It is not for us to define. It is for us to figure out. I don't like applying the term spiritual to that death. Spiritual has come to mean "not physical." It is not the kind of death that Paul and the author of Genesis 2 called sleep, or the type of death that Jesus awoke from (which I believe are the same). "Separation from God" doesn't really work because God still stayed with them. Covenantal death, that is, Adam was under a legal judgment of death, sitting on death row, so to speak, is not the whole picture, but contains elements we need to consider. Blessings |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 21, 2011 16:59:55 GMT -5
Jeff, I am probably not in full agreement with you on this. I do think man was separated from God. What man once had as a perfect abiding with God and what was the norm became abnormal and the norm became to be enmity with God. What was lost was not regained until Christ. It was regained but only in the sense that Jesus is that relationship to the Father as that perfect man and we are connected to Christ in the likeness of His death burial and resurrection through that baptism so many are afraid to admit applies. The what that we have become in Christ is that thing that John said we would become but he didn't know what it was. We still don't know what it is but it is what the Father sees and I believe what the Father sees is His Son who became the flesh that we could not become. This is how I think that we become immortal, according to Romans 8:11, being only in that Christ is that immortal and we are in Christ.
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
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Post by JLVaughn on Apr 21, 2011 19:43:14 GMT -5
Jeff, I am probably not in full agreement with you on this. I do think man was separated from God. What man once had as a perfect abiding with God and what was the norm became abnormal and the norm became to be enmity with God. What was lost was not regained until Christ. It was regained but only in the sense that Jesus is that relationship to the Father as that perfect man and we are connected to Christ in the likeness of His death burial and resurrection through that baptism so many are afraid to admit applies. The what that we have become in Christ is that thing that John said we would become but he didn't know what it was. We still don't know what it is but it is what the Father sees and I believe what the Father sees is His Son who became the flesh that we could not become. This is how I think that we become immortal, according to Romans 8:11, being only in that Christ is that immortal and we are in Christ. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.Ted, You said that it is regained by ... I said, "The message of Rev. 20-22 is, judgment is done. All that is left is for us to enter the holy city or leave, to be in covenant or to be out." Where's the disagreement? |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 21, 2011 20:29:19 GMT -5
Jeff, I am probably not in full agreement with you on this. I do think man was separated from God. What man once had as a perfect abiding with God and what was the norm became abnormal and the norm became to be enmity with God. What was lost was not regained until Christ. It was regained but only in the sense that Jesus is that relationship to the Father as that perfect man and we are connected to Christ in the likeness of His death burial and resurrection through that baptism so many are afraid to admit applies. The what that we have become in Christ is that thing that John said we would become but he didn't know what it was. We still don't know what it is but it is what the Father sees and I believe what the Father sees is His Son who became the flesh that we could not become. This is how I think that we become immortal, according to Romans 8:11, being only in that Christ is that immortal and we are in Christ. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.Ted, You said that it is regained by ... I said, "The message of Rev. 20-22 is, judgment is done. All that is left is for us to enter the holy city or leave, to be in covenant or to be out." Where's the disagreement? I was referring to: '"Separation from God" doesn't really work because God still stayed with them.' Read more: www.livebytr.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=preterism&action=display&thread=850&page=1#1303432994#ixzz1KD7aOwU3The separation was from what God and man once had to what it had forever become now different on a one on one basis (there is at least one exception to this in that God took Enoch). Mankind could never again have common ground with the Creator except now through a mediator. So even in Christ, Chist is our mediator. We are found acceptable to God only through His Son and God forgives all sin only through His Son. Redemption is not something we acguire but rather something we participate in through Christ Jesus. I may be phrasing this too simplistically but in essense this is how I think it goes. |
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toml
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Post by toml on Apr 21, 2011 22:39:16 GMT -5
This is one place where the understanding of the "Two Realms of Existence" is important. There is a physical realm, which we are in now. There is also the spiritual realm, which if we are in Christ, we are also in. When the physical incurs the wages of sin, that is whan the physical body dies, we will no longer be in the physical realm, we will, through Christ, be in the spiritual realm. In Adam we all die a physical death. So, the physical is still under the wages of sin. But, Christ is a life-giving spirit, and those in Christ will have eternal life, which is spiritual.  |
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Post by Morris on Apr 21, 2011 23:39:04 GMT -5
Separation from God" doesn't really work because God still stayed with them. I think this is a part of it. Christ restored this so that God dwells in us, He tabernacles with us, and we are His temple. But with Adam we entered a state of death whereby we die (are in the process of decay) unto death (the process is complete). I don't think I understand what this term means. What I do think is that scriptures show that we are inadequate to be in a covenant relation with God. He can absolutely guarantee His portion of the agreement whereas we cannot. In fact, it is absolutely guaranteed that we will, at some point in time, fail our portion of the agreement. That is why we can only exist in covenant relation to God through Him, and therefore why we must be in Christ through faith to partake of the covenant's benefits. All things are 'yes' in Christ. |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Apr 22, 2011 7:59:47 GMT -5
Good morning.
I asked this question over at DID and someone named Doug was gracious enough to answer. I'd like to put his response here to add to this discussion.
Thanks.
Good question Steve.
Here are my thoughts.
First, it is evident that SIN per se is still with us. We all struggle with it, and it is epidemic in the world. Additiionally, Revelation tells us that even after the end of all things, sinners will still exist outside the city gates Rev. 22:15.
The "city" spoken of here is not a literal city, it is the New Jerusalem, which is the body of Christ
Rev. 21:10 It is the place wherein is righteousness.
So, if you believe that you are in the body of Christ, and if you believe that righteousness is imputed to you, because of Christ, then you and all Christians, by way of this imputation of righteousness, are no longer counted as sinners, and therefore we do not reap the wages of sin.
Your concept of the power of "Adamic death" being thrown into the lake of fire, however, only applies to those who are saved. That is, the threat of death is no longer a reality for all those in Christ. When death was thrown into the lake of fire, its power (the power of death) was proclaimed as no longer having power over the believer. Yet, the WAGES are still incurred by those NOT in Christ. Nowhere does scripture say that the wages of sin were thrown into the lake of fire!
In other words, although sinners still exist outside the city (outside the church), the previous remedy for sinners being DEATH on account of their sins, has been replaced by the remedy for sin being He who became sin for us, Jesus.
Jesus became death for us, and by His stripes we are healed. That is why death reigned from Adam till Moses, but now death for the sinner is no longer a threat.
Ro. 5:15-21
15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Post by Once4all on Apr 22, 2011 13:43:03 GMT -5
Good morning. I asked this question over at DID and someone named Doug was gracious enough to answer. I'd like to put his response here to add to this discussion. Thanks. ... So, if you believe that you are in the body of Christ, and if you believe that righteousness is imputed to you, because of Christ, then you and all Christians, by way of this imputation of righteousness, are no longer counted as sinners, and therefore we do not reap the wages of sin. ... I don't buy the whole imputed righteousness thing. This is the basis behind Christians thinking they can sin and it doesn't matter. |
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Post by JLVaughn on Apr 22, 2011 15:01:29 GMT -5
What I do think is that scriptures show that we are inadequate to be in a covenant relation with God. He can absolutely guarantee His portion of the agreement whereas we cannot. In fact, it is absolutely guaranteed that we will, at some point in time, fail our portion of the agreement. That is why we can only exist in covenant relation to God through Him, and therefore why we must be in Christ through faith to partake of the covenant's benefits. All things are 'yes' in Christ. Morris, I'm not following either you or Allyn. Were the Israelites in the wilderness, "in a covenant relation with God?" Then how were they "inadequate to be in a covenant relation with God?" Do pagans exist? Are they "in a covenant relation with God?" |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 22, 2011 16:01:33 GMT -5
What I do think is that scriptures show that we are inadequate to be in a covenant relation with God. He can absolutely guarantee His portion of the agreement whereas we cannot. In fact, it is absolutely guaranteed that we will, at some point in time, fail our portion of the agreement. That is why we can only exist in covenant relation to God through Him, and therefore why we must be in Christ through faith to partake of the covenant's benefits. All things are 'yes' in Christ. Morris, I'm not following either you or Allyn. Were the Israelites in the wilderness, "in a covenant relation with God?" Then how were they "inadequate to be in a covenant relation with God?" Do pagans exist? Are they "in a covenant relation with God?" Maybe I will take the time to explain understanding better. We'll see what the weekend brings. (I hope a chocolate bunny) |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 22, 2011 19:25:00 GMT -5
We'll see what the weekend brings. (I hope a chocolate bunny) Now that brought a huge smile to my face!  |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Apr 22, 2011 22:21:15 GMT -5
We'll see what the weekend brings. (I hope a chocolate bunny) Now that brought a huge smile to my face! Now that is a  smiley. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 26, 2011 16:24:48 GMT -5
Morris, I'm not following either you or Allyn. Were the Israelites in the wilderness, "in a covenant relation with God?" Then how were they "inadequate to be in a covenant relation with God?" Do pagans exist? Are they "in a covenant relation with God?" Were the Israelites in the wilderness "in a covenant relation with God"? Yes, but not because they were faithful to their promise of covenant. That is exactly why the law was added. A covenant is a promise between two (or more) parties to perform the agreement. Whereas God's part of the agreement is guaranteed in the absolute sense, and therefore referred to as a "promise" or the "promises", the people's part was defaulted upon. In order to maintain the covenant, God stepped in by taking our part upon Himself. At first it was through the sacrificial system. The people offered their sacrifices because they could not maintain the covenant. This was done by faith and in reliance on God to cover over their inadequacies. Even in this the people could not be perfectly in covenant with God. If they could there would be no need for the continual sacrifices, but the facts of life are that we cannot, in and of ourselves, be sinless. And to be in a true covenantial relationship with a sinless God we also must be sinless. Looking at the meaning of "covenant" and we see God's plan of covenant relationship right from the start. Covenant: 'a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh)'. For the sinful person to have compact with the sinless God necessitates passing through death, the 'body' broken. If it is ourselves that provides the broken body, we cannot 'pass through' it to enter into compact because we are dead; deservingly so since that is our earned reward anyway. However, if the broken body we enter through is that of Jesus Christ, a perfect sacrifice whose body was not already subject to the condemnation of death by sin, we can enter into compact with God based solely on the merits of Him. We 'pass through death' yet remain alive in Him. As the New Testament declares, we receive the promises of God because we are in the One who was in perfect and unfailing covenant with God. The promises are God's part of the agreement; His guaranteed portion of the covenant obligations. In ourselves, we are sinful, so let no man deceive himself that he is without it. But in Christ, by faith, we are as perfect as He, and in covenant with God. |
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