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Post by lumberjack on Mar 23, 2011 8:48:29 GMT -5
Bev,
Let's take a look at one aspect of the nature of God. There is within Him the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord. So, in the Old Testament, who was the Angel of the Lord that stood before Joshua and basically commanded Joshua to kill every man, woman, boy, girl and baby in some of those city-states ? When David took the census, who was the Angel of the Lord that killed 78,000 men and held up His sword over Jerusalem before David went to his knees ? When those boys mocked and ridiculed the old Prophet, who was it that sent the " bear " to tear them up ? Who spiritually led the Roman Army in 70AD ? The slaughter was so nausiating that even Titus got " sick. " Traditional christianity says Jesus.
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Post by Morris on Mar 23, 2011 13:57:54 GMT -5
... Jesus came back and lead the slaughter of the Jews and destroyed their temple. You call that " saving all Israel "? I have to admit that I've never thought of the "second coming" in those terms before.  Jesus slaughtering anybody goes against his own teaching. I need to ponder this. With some of these thoughts in mind, along with MoGrace2U's comments on "the Jew first and then the Gentile", I'd like to share John 12:19-42 (or there abouts). Some of the questions I asked myself were, Who is the audience; what groups make up the audience? When should the judgment of "this world" take place? By what means will this judgment carried out and administered? Who, or what, is the "prince" of "this world? When Jesus said "all" shall be drawn to him, what caveats did he give considering who was listening to him speak? I found these interesting myself, so perhaps someone else might find the same. |
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Post by Once4all on Mar 23, 2011 14:52:12 GMT -5
Bev, Let's take a look at one aspect of the nature of God. There is within Him the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord. So, in the Old Testament, who was the Angel of the Lord that stood before Joshua and basically commanded Joshua to kill every man, woman, boy, girl and baby in some of those city-states ? When David took the census, who was the Angel of the Lord that killed 78,000 men and held up His sword over Jerusalem before David went to his knees ? When those boys mocked and ridiculed the old Prophet, who was it that sent the " bear " to tear them up ? Who spiritually led the Roman Army in 70AD ? The slaughter was so nausiating that even Titus got " sick. " Traditional christianity says Jesus. If you are implying that the Angel of the Lord in the OT was Jesus, I disagree. But God did send messengers to accomplish those things; with that I agree. |
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Post by Once4all on Mar 23, 2011 15:26:01 GMT -5
I have to admit that I've never thought of the "second coming" in those terms before. Jesus slaughtering anybody goes against his own teaching. I need to ponder this. With some of these thoughts in mind, along with MoGrace2U's comments on "the Jew first and then the Gentile", I'd like to share John 12:19-42 (or there abouts). Some of the questions I asked myself were, 1. Who is the audience; what groups make up the audience? 2. When should the judgment of "this world" take place? 3. By what means will this judgment carried out and administered? 4. Who, or what, is the "prince" of "this world? 5. When Jesus said "all" shall be drawn to him, what caveats did he give considering who was listening to him speak? I found these interesting myself, so perhaps someone else might find the same. 1. Jews and Greeks 2. "Now" (Then; John 12:31) 3. The word spoken by Jesus (John 12:48) 4. I don't see it explicitly identified in the text. The common understanding is that it is Satan. I will suggest that it is the corrupt rulers and chief priests of the Jews, or rather the "system" of Judaism as it had become. 5. Those who believe in Jesus and keep his sayings (John 12:44-47) |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Mar 24, 2011 7:29:56 GMT -5
Good morning. Yes they were. According to Paul it would be a remnant. Not the large number of Jews you seem to have in mind, but what God has in mind. Romans 9: 27 says, "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. In other words, only those who believe in Jesus are true Israel. Peter says that those who believe in Jesus Christ were the chosen race and holy nation. (1 Peter 2:7) Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 144,000 from the covenanted nation of Israel were saved according to God. A remnant. Why is it that the greatest enemies of the Gospel and Christians were the Jews ? And to this day the Jews still reject and mock Jesus. The Jews of Jesus' day were under the false impression that God was going to destroy their enemies and set them over the gentiles. They misunderstood the entire issue of resurrection and salvation. Jesus clarified what the prophets had proclaimed. And the Jews had Him put to death. From what I'm reading here you seem to be agreeing with the understanding the Pharisees had in mind. You have to really dig hard in the gospels to find Jesus agreeing with anything they said. I hope you're not saying that those who claim to be Jews today are of the covenanted nation of Israel? Because there isn't any. There is no Jewish race today. The Jews of today are of the faith of the Talmud, the religion of the Pharisees. The traditions of men. They do not believe in the God of the Old Testament, not do they worship Him. Jesus said that "if they had believed Moses, they would believe in Him (John 5:46-47) Mat 21:33-44 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him]. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.Strongs defines "destroy as 1) to destroy a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin b) render useless c) to kill d) to declare that one must be put to death e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy a) to lose Websters dictionary defines "destroy" as to 1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate. 2. to put an end to; extinguish. 3. to kill; slay. 4. to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate. 5. to defeat completely. Just what part of the word "destroy" do you not understand? The Jews, the nation of Israel, they were destroyed. Completely destroyed. They are no more. The old covenant has been done away with, replaced by a better one. Why should we believe in a messiah that died ? " Jesus came to defeat Satan and restore what was lost. There already was salvation by faith. Yes, and today those who claim to be true Jews and followers of the OT (but now we know there aren't any left) still follow the dead writings and traditions that Jesus condemned. Thats why those who claim to be decendants of Abraham still don't believe in a messiah that died. They were completely wrong. Was Abraham saved? Yes he was. Was he received into heaven when he died? No he wasn't. He was resting in Hades until the time of the resurrection. John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (OT saints resurrection) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. (Us today. We do not need to be resurrected if we already have life in Christ) Believest thou this? One of the things He was sent for was the lost sheep, if that means the Jews, they rejected Him and killed him. therefor Jesus came back and lead the slaughter of the Jews and destroyed their temple. Yes he did. Thats what Revelation says would happen. We need to agree with the scriptures. It's your paridigm that conflicts with Jesus and the prophets. I know, mine used to too! Read Matthew 21:33-44 again, and again. Also, please read Deuteronomy 28:48- 49 it says that "Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all [things]: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed (there's that word "destroy" again) thee. The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, [as swift] as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; So it was the Romans that destroyed the temple. And if you read The War against the Jews by Josephus you'll see it was probably the Jews who slaughtered their own more than the Romans. Its a long read but well worth it. You call that " saving all Israel?" Yes I do. And from God's perspective, not yours Blessings to all. Steve |
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Post by lumberjack on Mar 25, 2011 9:43:47 GMT -5
Hi, Interesting responses to my last post.
Allyn, speaking of Calvin and what he has birthed in some reformed leaders, I'm into it with Dr. Ken Talbot on Sam's expansion article. This guy is a real piece of work, to be nice about it. If you don't believe in the transference of " spirits " namely the ones operating thru Calvin, this guy should make you take a second look . I have to back off for a day or so and ask the Lord for wisdom in responding to him. The flesh says to rip him, the spirit says whoa, calm down.
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Post by Allyn on Mar 25, 2011 14:40:46 GMT -5
Hi, Interesting responses to my last post. Allyn, speaking of Calvin and what he has birthed in some reformed leaders, I'm into it with Dr. Ken Talbot on Sam's expansion article. This guy is a real piece of work, to be nice about it. If you don't believe in the transference of " spirits " namely the ones operating thru Calvin, this guy should make you take a second look . I have to back off for a day or so and ask the Lord for wisdom in responding to him. The flesh says to rip him, the spirit says whoa, calm down. Hey, do you have the link? It best to refrain - as the spirit is leading you to, but I know exactly what you are saying. Talbot told me off, that's for sure. He said more or less "hey if the Law says burn a heretic at the stake then do it with green wood". |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Mar 26, 2011 12:28:44 GMT -5
It seemed like Dr. T was taking you to task on the wisdom of your association with Dennis Peacocke.
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Post by Allyn on Mar 26, 2011 12:36:52 GMT -5
I must be missing something here. Who is Dennis Peacocke?
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toml
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Post by toml on Mar 27, 2011 0:47:38 GMT -5
All Israel was saved ? Why is it that the greatest enemies of the Gospel and Christians were the Jews ? And to this day the Jews still reject and mock Jesus. " Why should we believe in a messiah that died ? " Jesus came to defeat Satan and restore what was lost. There already was salvation by faith. One of the things He was sent for was the lost sheep, if that means the Jews, they rejected Him and killed him. therefor Jesus came back and lead the slaughter of the Jews and destroyed their temple. You call that " saving all Israel "? All Israel is saved, and through Christ, we who are Gentiles are grafted in, and called Israel.  |
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toml
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Post by toml on Mar 27, 2011 1:24:45 GMT -5
Hi, Interesting responses to my last post. Allyn, speaking of Calvin and what he has birthed in some reformed leaders, I'm into it with Dr. Ken Talbot on Sam's expansion article. This guy is a real piece of work, to be nice about it. If you don't believe in the transference of " spirits " namely the ones operating thru Calvin, this guy should make you take a second look . I have to back off for a day or so and ask the Lord for wisdom in responding to him. The flesh says to rip him, the spirit says whoa, calm down. Transference of spirits? Where did that come from? What is meant by that? If your answer to these questions is too long, perhaps you could start another thread for that purpose.  |
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Post by lumberjack on Mar 27, 2011 9:09:06 GMT -5
Hi Robin, Allyn and Tom, thanks for responding. Yes, I triggered something within this guy for him to attempt to dissect me from out of the blue. I am sincerely trying to comprehend the foundations of FP. But with these mainline denominational " religious " leaders who have lead christianity into " pie social " club meetings ,I take issue. Bigtime. He is just the vehicle I have been looking for over on that site. Dennis Peacocke was the president of the student body at Berkely in the 60's. He was a Marxist and an incredible athlete. He got caught up in the drug scene and one day had an incredible personal encounter with the Lord Jesus that totally transformed him. It's a long story but he became a pastor and then moved on to found Strategic Christian Services, a parachuch training and equipping ministry and Kingdom Ministries International, A fellowship of chuches gostrategic.org/ My wife , Melody and I are trained facilitators in the Strategic Life Training (SLT ) school. Transference of spirits. I plan on starting a thread on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and their operations in the present day church. I also want to do one on my experiences with the Jehovah's Witness and how that changed my dogmatic criticalness of people who don't believe as I do. OK, religious spirits are demons ( not fallen angels ) that are assigned to religious leaders and churches to pervert and disrupt and sidetrack christianity from it's destiny ( my take and understanding.) They influenced and in some cases " possessed " the Pharisees. They took the Word of God and went to extremes with it and as Jesus said to the Pharisees, " Your traditions have nullified the Word of God ". I believe that these religious spirits worked thru christian leaders and churches all thru history and some influenced Calvin. Yes, God used him and other reformers to bring in " salvation by faith, not works " , and then hard cold merciless doctrines moved in thru these leaders influnced by these religious spirits and look what we have in leaders like Talbot. " You will know a tree by it's fruits ". Where is the love and compassion and co-operation to bring freedom to the nations and the suffering peoples of the world ? No. Talbot demands strict obedience to " doctrine " just like Calvin or "die ". What is influencing this mindset ? My reality and experience is evil spirits disguised. I have encountered some of these personally and they evil , period. I think FP doctrine says they are gone, but that's not my experience. So the religious demons that were in the Pharisees, some transferred to influence Calvin and on down the line. That's what I believe. |
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Post by Allyn on Mar 27, 2011 10:24:22 GMT -5
Lumberjack, thanks for the comment. I struggle with what kind of influence evil spirits have in the world today. I have not had personal experience. My belief is that the evil spirits are gone and cannot have any rule over the hearts of men inside the kingdom of God but the influence or another way of saying it, the spirit of influence in the unregenerated heart, is a part of man's fallen makeup.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Mar 27, 2011 12:32:31 GMT -5
My limited experience with such spirits is related to when I worked for a while in a warehouse where Hinduism was practiced - even having a shrine set up to Shiva. The presence of evil in that place could literally be felt. And the blindness upon the devotees there was just as noticeable. They were robbed during the night watchman's shift while he was practicing yoga and 'praying'. He never heard or saw a thing when an explosion blew off the gate and they drove 2 semi's right past him not 2 feet outside his window!
That we still must engage in spiritual warfare against such principalities and powers - in the world; is necessary because it is OUR prayers the Lord hears and answers. There is no longer a shrine in that place today! And that is because our Lord rules over all the heavens and the earth. If none were in need of such rule, then neither would they be in need of our discernment or prayers.
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toml
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Post by toml on Mar 27, 2011 15:37:07 GMT -5
Hi Robin, Allyn and Tom, thanks for responding. ................................................. Transference of spirits. I plan on starting a thread on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and their operations in the present day church. I also want to do one on my experiences with the Jehovah's Witness and how that changed my dogmatic criticalness of people who don't believe as I do. OK, religious spirits are demons ( not fallen angels ) that are assigned to religious leaders and churches to pervert and disrupt and sidetrack christianity from it's destiny ( my take and understanding.) They influenced and in some cases " possessed " the Pharisees. They took the Word of God and went to extremes with it and as Jesus said to the Pharisees, " Your traditions have nullified the Word of God ". I believe that these religious spirits worked thru christian leaders and churches all thru history and some influenced Calvin. Yes, God used him and other reformers to bring in " salvation by faith, not works " , and then hard cold merciless doctrines moved in thru these leaders influnced by these religious spirits and look what we have in leaders like Talbot. " You will know a tree by it's fruits ". Where is the love and compassion and co-operation to bring freedom to the nations and the suffering peoples of the world ? No. Talbot demands strict obedience to " doctrine " just like Calvin or "die ". What is influencing this mindset ? My reality and experience is evil spirits disguised. I have encountered some of these personally and they evil , period. I think FP doctrine says they are gone, but that's not my experience. So the religious demons that were in the Pharisees, some transferred to influence Calvin and on down the line. That's what I believe. Sorry LJ, but I must disagree with a few points. 1. Salvation by faith did not come through John Calvin but through Christ, and taught by the His apostles. 2. Scripture is plain that we are drawn away by our own lust; James 1.14. 3. Revelation 20.10 indicates the "deceiver" was cast into the lake of fire - "the second death." There is no deceiver in the world today. All those who behave in an evil way do so in response to their own lust, not from the influence of evil spirits. - party |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Mar 27, 2011 16:44:38 GMT -5
Just because Satan who once was the leader of all fallen angels is in the lake of fire does not necessarily mean the rest are too. Do you suppose the Lord has no purpose for fallen spirits once 70AD was past? I see the locusts released from the pit who took on riders - where did they go after that?
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Post by Allyn on Mar 27, 2011 17:08:01 GMT -5
Robin, this is part of my conundrum. What is the end game if there are still evil spirits running free? I am open minded to a reasoned response. I just can't see it as a real thing and mostly because I have not experienced seeing a possessed person. Feelings about what might be going on is not evidence for me.
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Post by lumberjack on Mar 28, 2011 7:52:19 GMT -5
Hi Robin, there is a gift of the Spirit called distiguishingof spirits and I see that you have experienced it.
Hi Tom, yes, Christ established " salvation by faith alone ", taught by the Apostles and siedtracked by the Catholic Church to " salvation not by faith alone. " Luther, Calvin and a few others ( known as the Reformers ) challenged the Catholic Church, some to the death.
Hi Allyn , in the gifts thread that I will do, I will give you experiences of some " deliverences" Melody and I have been involved with. We have had people levitate off the ground , one young lady came feet first out of a chair, slid on her back under a coffee table and ended up against the wall on the other side of the room. I am not a " charismatic " christian. What caused these events to take place ? These are things we will deal with.
Side note, awhile back I was asked about who was the " Angel of the Lord. " Take a look at Judges 2 : 1 - 4 and tell me what you think.
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toml
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Post by toml on Mar 28, 2011 9:36:08 GMT -5
Just because Satan who once was the leader of all fallen angels is in the lake of fire does not necessarily mean the rest are too. Do you suppose the Lord has no purpose for fallen spirits once 70AD was past? I see the locusts released from the pit who took on riders - where did they go after that? Locusts? - party |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Mar 28, 2011 9:43:37 GMT -5
During Jesus' ministry and also the apostles', we see many were healed of demonic possession in Israel and Asia. So it must have been quite an event that when Jerusalem was overthrown, that anybody still possessed by demons in the world was delivered at that time if all devils hit the lake with Satan. Makes me wonder how it is nations like India and Africa are still so fraught with idolatry and sorceries if the world at large has been set free. Or who it was that appeared to Joseph Smith as an angel of light...to deliver to him another gospel.
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Post by Allyn on Mar 28, 2011 13:30:09 GMT -5
Hi Allyn , in the gifts thread that I will do, I will give you experiences of some " deliverences" Melody and I have been involved with. We have had people levitate off the ground , one young lady came feet first out of a chair, slid on her back under a coffee table and ended up against the wall on the other side of the room. I am not a " charismatic " christian. What caused these events to take place ? These are things we will deal with. Side note, awhile back I was asked about who was the " Angel of the Lord. " Take a look at Judges 2 : 1 - 4 and tell me what you think. Please give exact firsthand details of these things. Concerning the angel of the Lord - God's angels (messengers) always make their appearances on behalf of God. They speak with the authority of God and can bring punishment down upon the doubter or blessing for the believer. I believe that in every instance where we have an angel of the Lord appearing that this entity is actually an angel of the Lord. |
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Post by Once4all on Mar 28, 2011 14:09:27 GMT -5
(James 2:24 NASB) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Luther, who didn't want to believe what James wrote, is just as much the "evil theologian" as Calvin.
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Post by Morris on Mar 28, 2011 18:04:37 GMT -5
(James 2:24 NASB) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Luther, who didn't want to believe what James wrote, is just as much the "evil theologian" as Calvin. In this sense, we are all "evil theologians", struggling with the truth of God's word and how we are to interpret it as such. James says " not by faith alone" while Paul writes " justified by faith" and Habakkuk states that " the just shall live by his faith". The apparent difficulty we face is to reconcile these two seemingly contradictory concepts. It's a classic chicken and egg scenario; "Which comes first...?" Without the time to give all the scriptural references, what I have found is that faith comes first and justifies. Real faith will have real consequences in our lives. A lip-service faith will do nothing but move the lips. I am called to " Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king" (1 Peter 2:17). If we really fear God we will honor people, love the brotherhood, and honor authority. If we love God we will imitate Him; " Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma" (Ephesians 5:1,2). If "this", we will "that", by nature; the question becomes which nature do we submit ourselves to, our own or God's. |
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toml
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Post by toml on Mar 29, 2011 11:58:18 GMT -5
During Jesus' ministry and also the apostles', we see many were healed of demonic possession in Israel and Asia. So it must have been quite an event that when Jerusalem was overthrown, that anybody still possessed by demons in the world was delivered at that time if all devils hit the lake with Satan. Makes me wonder how it is nations like India and Africa are still so fraught with idolatry and sorceries if the world at large has been set free. Or who it was that appeared to Joseph Smith as an angel of light...to deliver to him another gospel. Me thinks man is evil enough on his own, we don't need evil spirits. Who is responsible for our sinfulness? Can we credibly say, "The Devil made me do it"? - party |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Mar 29, 2011 11:58:49 GMT -5
James in writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad is writing to an audience familiar with the law of Moses. Under that law a man was born into the covenant and then learned of God, taught by the school master of the law. His righteous deeds were what showed forth his faith in God. James is showing them that in Christ, this is still true, for now they know they have the promise.
Ezekiel 18 deals with how those under the law would be justified by their faith - in the day their souls were raised from death. This is who Habakkuk is speaking to as well. The just SHALL LIVE by faith, because they didn't have eternal life yet. And it would be their works that would prove whether that was so or not at the resurrection.
We on the other hand under the new covenant are already justified by faith in the work of Christ, and we live now and will never die. If we continue to abide in grace by faith, holding fast to truth and love, demonstrating that we have His life in us, then our justification abides as well. At no time, under either covenant, can a man think he is saved by his good works alone - if they are not born of faith. We cannot rest in our own good works, we can rest only in Christ's.
Our judgment is not awaiting a time of resurrection to determine if we have the faith that justifies as it was under the OC. But because it is a living faith, it is also the dynamic of the life that is working in us. If there is no evidence of that life, then there is no proof that we have received a genuine saving faith. Therefore in this life, we must keep faith alive and it burns brightest by our obedience to Christ as we desire to be as He is in this world.
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toml
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Post by toml on Mar 29, 2011 12:13:49 GMT -5
It seems to me that good works are an attribute of faith. At least that is how I understand Hebrews 11. - party |
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