|
|
Post by Allyn on Feb 26, 2011 10:18:31 GMT -5
In my before sleep reading of the Bible - as is my custom - I continued in the book of Nehemiah through chapter 9. It was in that chapter that I found a most interesting prayer and praise by the returned from exile people confessing the sins of their fathers to God. Beginning at verse 5 they, in their confession, exalt the Lord God and all He had done starting with the creation of all things and, in order, all things concerning God choosing them as a people - saying:
“Stand up and bless the LORD your God
Forever and ever!
“ Blessed be Your glorious name,
Which is exalted above all blessing and praise!
6 You alone are the LORD;
You have made heaven,
The heaven of heavens, with all their host,
The earth and everything on it,
The seas and all that is in them,
And You preserve them all.
The host of heaven worships You.
7 “You are the LORD God,
Who chose Abram,
And brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans,
And gave him the name Abraham;
8 You found his heart faithful before You,
And made a covenant with him
To give the land of the Canaanites,
The Hittites, the Amorites,
The Perizzites, the Jebusites,
And the Girgashites—
To give it to his descendants.
You have performed Your words,
For You are righteous.
9 “You saw the affliction of our fathers in Egypt,
And heard their cry by the Red Sea.
10 You showed signs and wonders against Pharaoh,
Against all his servants,
And against all the people of his land.
For You knew that they acted proudly against them.
So You made a name for Yourself, as it is this day.
It continues on in the exact order of things.
This is all very confirming for me that Genesis 1 is creation of material things language.
Comments or thoughts?
|
|
|
|
Post by JLVaughn on Feb 26, 2011 11:16:11 GMT -5
This is all very confirming for me that Genesis 1 is creation of material things language. Comments or thoughts? Allyn, You have made heaven,
The heaven of heavens, with all their host,
The earth and everything on it,
The seas and all that is in them,
Only if you have already assumed that heavens and earth with all their host refers to material things. Nothing else in the entire passage refers to the material. It is all covenantal. In the New Testament, heavens and earth and sea are defined covenantally. Proper hermeneutics requires us to apply our understanding from the New Testament to the Old. Whatever you believe passed away in Rev. 21:1 works perfectly well in Neh. 9:6. We know from ancient mythology, that the sun, moon, stars and planets represented exalted people, gods, and not physical/material entities. Non-Israelites would have understood Neh. 9:6 to refer to the creation of the pantheon. Nothing physical or material about it. In 2 Kings, we see that the hosts of heaven were not material objects like stars and planets, but were exalted people, the Baals and such who were worshiped as gods. The Israelites also exalted this pantheon, in exactly the same way the nations around them did. We need to look at these passages the same way ancients would have. That is why the discipline of the Grammatico-Historical Hermeneutic is so important. It takes away from us our modern thoughts about how things should be and replaces them with the understandings of the ancients. We insert ancient views into the text instead of our modern musings. Thoughts? |
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Feb 26, 2011 12:23:49 GMT -5
Host, in Neh. 9:6 is Strong's 6635 which is tsaba'. It means armies, or a mass of persons. The word can be figuratively things but in this verse tshba' leans towards armies of heaven. The word the Jews used during this praise to God and acknowledgement of His works for heavens meant the visible universe and is from strong's 8064. It is the word shamayim which is from an unused root meaning to be lofty.
These are physical usage words.
|
|
|
|
Post by JLVaughn on Feb 26, 2011 14:35:03 GMT -5
Host, in Neh. 9:6 is Strong's 6635 which is tsaba'. It means armies, or a mass of persons. The word can be figuratively things but in this verse tshba' leans towards armies of heaven. The word the Jews used during this praise to God and acknowledgement of His works for heavens meant the visible universe and is from strong's 8064. It is the word shamayim which is from an unused root meaning to be lofty. These are physical usage words. Physical usage words? Armies are people. If these armies are physical people, then we are not talking material H&E here. We are talking about people. |
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Feb 26, 2011 15:16:49 GMT -5
When I said Physical I meant NOT Covenantal. In otherwordsverse 6 is once again talking about the creation of all things of substance on earth and all things that dwell in heaven.
Something else I did not address is your comment that the rest of it is covenantal. My comment is that the rest of it is about the who of the covenant. We have Abraham and we have the Children of Israel. Within their mention are various aspects of who they were in God - who they were who received a promise. Neh. 9 is a praise section after having heard read aloud the Law of Moses in chapter 8. Their hearts were broken because of the sin they had committed and were faced with. They were told to rejoice rather than mourn. Then came chapter 9 and thier utterance of the historical record through praise and prayer. That historical record including the mightiest work of all and that being bringing all things into creative form.
|
|
|
|
Post by JLVaughn on Feb 26, 2011 18:05:42 GMT -5
Allyn,
Are you still assuming that covenantal = "not physical?"
You came to your conclusion about Neh. 9:6 how? By assuming your conclusion. The passage works exactly the same way for me. Nothing in that passage contradicts Covenant Creation.
Ultimately, that passage is evidence for nothing. Any view of Genesis 1:1 heavens and earth will work with Neh. 9:6. Any!
It comes down to two things. 1) When did the old covenant start? Genesis 1. 2) Can you make a view of physical creation that does not contradict Genesis 1 & 2? I believe it is impossible. I gave two examples why in the debate with Roo.
You and everyone else who believes Gen. 1 describes physical/material creation needs to develop a model for that creation that does not contradict Scripture. Right now, you have no model (that I've seen). Just an assumption that Genesis creation must be physical/material.
Please prove me wrong. Let's see a physical/material creation model that doesn't contradict Scripture. I'm not asking for a model that agrees with science. I really don't care about that. Just make a physical material model that is consistent with Scripture. I don't believe it can be done. In the debate, Roo conceded that point. He didn't challenge it. Will you?
|
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Feb 26, 2011 21:35:24 GMT -5
No Jeff, I really didn't assume anything. I came to the verse and it said what it said. I questioned whether or not Covenant Creation believed this was the real creation reference or the covenant one. I did my research on the Hebrew words of verse 6 and drew my conclusion based upon the fact that those were words to mean real material things of the seen world and real spiritual things of the unseen world. The passage is evidence of God's people seeking His face in both praise and worship. The purpose of the people was not to set out to prove the creation - that would not be necessary. But it does confirm who the Creator is through the worship He legitimately received on that day from verse 6.
Jeff, a model is not required when the first declaration of it is still on display. It is used as a model however. It is used to relate the idea of various covenantal promises by borrowing its language. I still have yet to find the connection between Gen1 and Rev. 21:1 except the termonology. If Rev. 21:1 is speaking of a covenant idea then the first heaven and earth to pass a way would also need to be a covenant idea. Genesis chapter 1 does not fit as that idea.
|
|
|
|
Post by JLVaughn on Feb 26, 2011 23:33:37 GMT -5
Allyn,
Neh. 9:6 references Genesis 1:1-2:1. Are we agreed?
What do you believe the first H&E and sea in Rev. 21:1 refers to? Specifically, what passage in the Old Testament introduces us to the H&E and sea of Rev. 21:1?
|
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Feb 27, 2011 10:55:41 GMT -5
Allyn, Neh. 9:6 references Genesis 1:1-2:1. Are we agreed? I certainly believe it does, Jeff. The problem is that you believe it is not a reference to God's wonderful work of creation but rather His covenant depiction. What do you believe the first H&E and sea in Rev. 21:1 refers to? Specifically, what passage in the Old Testament introduces us to the H&E and sea of Rev. 21:1? The first passage referencing the type of heaven and earth you accept is the one that belonged to God's choosen people. It is first mentioned in Leviticus but is in a negative context. God first tells the people that He will greatly enrich them - providing both safety in the land, rain in its season, bountiful of crops, richness of folage and so on. But if they trespass against God then these things will depart from them. Their whole way of life will be shattered which would include their religious obsevances. We see that disobedience was what they did, in fact, and all those things departed from them. They turned to idols, married outside of the 12 tribes, pursued after personal riches. Thier heaven and earth (Lev. 26:19) was brokem down. The sea of Rev. 21:1 refers to the molten sea of Solomon and is described this way: 1 Kings 7:23 And he made the Sea of cast bronze, ten cubits from one brim to the other; it was completely round. Its height was five cubits, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference.Also found in 2 Kings 25:13 The bronze pillars that were in the house of the LORD, and the carts and the bronze Sea that were in the house of the LORD, the Chaldeans broke in pieces, and carried their bronze to Babylon. Exodus 38:8 is also the same description. The point I am making is that Rev. 21:1 is easily defined by simply accepting what it is referring to. There is no need to, nor is it warranted to push its meaning to include the actual creation. The creation shows the work of God. But the first heaven and earth of Rev. 21:1 can only refer to the covenant of God and substantial evidence is in its correct location apart from physical creation. The promises of God apply to His people while the bragging rights of His creation apply to Himself and He is worthy of praise for His wonderful creation (Neh. 9:6) |
|
|
|
Post by JLVaughn on Feb 27, 2011 12:04:38 GMT -5
Allyn, I didn't ask what I think it means. You are confusing me. In your mind, do you believe that Rev. 21:1 is not referring to Gen. 1:1-3? Do you believe Rev. 21:1 is referring to something else? Can you please tell me what you believe Rev. 21:1 is referring to? Please leave what you think I think out of your comments. In my debate resolve, I made the point, C. The context surrounding Rev. 21:1 frequently refers to early Genesis 1-3. Some examples are
Rev. 20:2, "that serpent of old," Gen. 3:1
vs. 6, "Over such the second death has no power, " Gen. 3
Rev. 21:1, "Also there was no more sea," Gen. 1:10
vs. 4, "there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. " Gen. 3
vs. 24, "no need of the sun or of the moon to shine," Gen. 1:14ff
vs. 25," there shall be no night there," Gen. 1:4ff
Rev. 22:2, "the tree of life," Gen. 2:9
vs. 3, "And there shall be no more curse," Gen. 3 This is the context of Rev. 21:1. They look like references to Genesis to me. Since You say Rev. 21:1 references something else, could you please show me how that something else fits these other verses? |
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Feb 27, 2011 12:20:59 GMT -5
Allyn, I didn't ask what I think it means. You are confusing me. Sorry Jeff. I thought I did answer it. Yes Neh. 9:6 is referring to the creation account of Genesis 1. In your mind, do you believe that Rev. 21:1 is not referring to Gen. 1:1-3? It is not Do you believe Rev. 21:1 is referring to something else? Yes, it is referring to something else. Can you please tell me what you believe Rev. 21:1 is referring to? Please leave what you think I think out of your comments. My last post showed exactly what I believe Rev. 21:1 is talking about. It is about God dissolving His obsolete Old Covenant system and declaring the establishment and functionality of the New Covenant system. The seas that is no more is the altar sacrificial duties of the earth bound levitical system. In my debate resolve, I made the point, C. The context surrounding Rev. 21:1 frequently refers to early Genesis 1-3. Some examples are
Rev. 20:2, "that serpent of old," Gen. 3:1
vs. 6, "Over such the second death has no power, " Gen. 3
Rev. 21:1, "Also there was no more sea," Gen. 1:10
vs. 4, "there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. " Gen. 3
vs. 24, "no need of the sun or of the moon to shine," Gen. 1:14ff
vs. 25," there shall be no night there," Gen. 1:4ff
Rev. 22:2, "the tree of life," Gen. 2:9
vs. 3, "And there shall be no more curse," Gen. 3 This is the context of Rev. 21:1. They look like references to Genesis to me. Since You say Rev. 21:1 references something else, could you please show me how that something else fits these other verses? Those things are what I was saying earlier are what are modeled after the real creation. It is simply borrowed termonology. |
|
|
|
Post by JLVaughn on Feb 27, 2011 17:07:14 GMT -5
My last post showed exactly what I believe Rev. 21:1 is talking about. It is about God dissolving His obsolete Old Covenant system and declaring the establishment and functionality of the New Covenant system. The seas that is no more is the altar sacrificial duties of the earth bound levitical system. Allyn, You have no Scripture to back up your view? |
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Feb 27, 2011 17:42:31 GMT -5
My last post showed exactly what I believe Rev. 21:1 is talking about. It is about God dissolving His obsolete Old Covenant system and declaring the establishment and functionality of the New Covenant system. The seas that is no more is the altar sacrificial duties of the earth bound levitical system. Allyn, You have no Scripture to back up your view? Jeff - what's the deal? Re-read post #8 in this thread. I have answered all your questions with Scripture. |
|
|
|
Post by JLVaughn on Feb 27, 2011 19:40:53 GMT -5
Allyn,
Lev. 26:19?
That's the first place a covenantal H&E is used? That passage is talking about judgment against the H&E. What H&E? Where are we actually told anything about the H&E?
Are you saying that God was judging something that never previously existed?
When did this covenantal H&E start?
|
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Feb 27, 2011 20:43:49 GMT -5
Allyn, Lev. 26:19? That's the first place a covenantal H&E is used? That passage is talking about judgment against the H&E. What H&E? Where are we actually told anything about the H&E? Are you saying that God was judging something that never previously existed? When did this covenantal H&E start? Well that's the question, isn't it, Jeff? Just like you asked what the sea of Rev. 21:1 stood for. It all started with the people it was given to and that can only be the children of Israel beginning with the promise to Abraham because of his righteous faith. Abraham received the promise of a great nation which turned out to be near and far. Then we see the descendants of Abraham who came from the promise having their beginning with Issac . Then on to Jacob (later named Israel), who had the dream of angels ascending and descending heaven on what we New Testament people now understand as representing Christ as that ladder (John 1:50-51). From there come in the 12 sons of Jacob and then Moses and the Law of sacrifice - to David the man after God's own heart and to his son, Solomon who was granted the privilege to build the temple and its furnishings - which included the great altar of sacrifice portion called the Sea (1 Kings 7:23). Jeff, it is an absolute must that the heavens and earth belonging to the children of Israel would have its beginning with the father of faith - Abraham. It is an absolute must that the promise of what that heaven and earth would consist of could come only from God as a promise based on faith and obedience alone. The first heaven and earth theme had its propper purpose and was in its proper time. Its promise gave peace and abundance, and prosperity and protection to the faithful but it required all Israel to be faithful. If not then it became a place of punishment. Within it was peace when all Israel was faithful. When Israel became unfaithful it was the opposite. The new heaven and new earth is somewhat the same except the inheritors of it will never be turned away nor can ever be found unfaithful within since it is not based on what we do with regards to its promise. The NH and NE is a time and place of grace and welcomes all to enter in under the blood of the Sacrifice once and for all. It is a mistake to reqire Genesis 1 to be that first heavens and earth spoken of in Rev. 21:1. It is a mistake because the first was based on faith and obeidience of one man just as the new heavens and earth was based on the faith and obedience of one Man. |
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Feb 27, 2011 21:13:20 GMT -5
Allyn, you said, " It is a mistake because the first was based on faith and obeidience of one man just as the new heavens and earth was based on the faith and obedience of one Man."
I am assuming that "the first (H & E) was based on faith and obedience of one man" is in regard to Abraham
And the second was in regard to Christ?
Are these correct rhetorical questions?
Because if they are, I would have to wonder why the apostle Paul contrasts (in the same manner that you do) with the first being ADAM and the last being Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Why does Paul go all the way back to Adam[/b]?[/size] Why does the Lord Jesus go all the way back to Genesis in regard to the Pharisees in Matthew 23:35? If the heaven and earth didn't begin until Abraham, how can the H & E that is being judged be associated with Abel? I find that kind of unfair and unrighteous. Matthew 23:35 - That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. |
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Feb 27, 2011 21:25:33 GMT -5
Allyn, you said, " It is a mistake because the first was based on faith and obeidience of one man just as the new heavens and earth was based on the faith and obedience of one Man."
I am assuming that "the first (H & E) was based on faith and obedience of one man" is in regard to Abraham
And the second was in regard to Christ?
Are these correct rhetorical questions?Yes that is correct. Those contrasts have to do with the sin of one and the redemption from sin through the other - while the heaven and the earth contrast the faith of one (Abraham) which brought in the good Law of obedience and regiment while the last Faithful Man (Jesus) brought in the everlasting Covenant of Grace through His blood alone, once and for all. |
|
|
|
Post by mellontes on Feb 27, 2011 22:01:57 GMT -5
So, yours is a trichotomy of sorts - Adam, Abraham, and Christ.
The Bible has:
Two covenants
Two Jerusalems
Two Israels
Two cities
Two deaths
Two kingdoms
Two Adams
Two comings
Two temples
But THREE heaven and earths?
How do you explain the reference to no more male and female in the new heaven and earth?
Where is the reference to male and female in the old heaven and earth?
|
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Feb 27, 2011 22:08:05 GMT -5
So, yours is a trichotomy of sorts - Adam, Abraham, and Christ. The Bible has: Two covenants Two Jerusalems Two Israels Two cities Two deaths Two kingdoms Two Adams Two comings Two temples But THREE heaven and earths? Actually there are several levels of heaven and at least two levels of earth. There is only one creation but within that one creation there are several religions but within those religions there is only one legitimate religion and in that one religion there is only one God and for God's purposes and His people there are: Two covenants Two Jerusalems Two Israels Two cities Two deaths Two kingdoms Two Adams Two comings Two temples |
|
|
|
Post by Allyn on Feb 27, 2011 22:14:48 GMT -5
Covenants are not about procreation of flesh but of being born again of the word and the Spirit.
|
|
