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Post by mellontes on Jan 20, 2011 16:09:30 GMT -5
I had been asking an aquaintance of mine to do a study on the word harpadzo for almost 3 years now. He still refuses to do the study. What he always does is send me an article written by someone else in his paradigm on the topic. His is his most recent article sent to me. Originally, I thought it had been written by a 15-year old. I have now learned that it was written by a pastor who looks to be at least 40 years old... Here is the article:
1. What does the word rapture mean?
1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
Some critics of the rapture teaching seem to try and make something of the fact that the word rapture does not appear in the Bible. Actually the meaning behind the phrase “caught up” is rapture. Throughout the history of the church, Latin was the accepted language of theological discussion. Many theological terms developed out of this language such as the term’s millenium, trinity and immanence. Although these exact words do not appear in the Bible their concepts are certainly seen and are Biblically based. The term rapture is one of those terms. We find words given that relate to such a wonderful event called the rapture.
The English phrase “caught away” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the Greek word “harpadzo” which points to a literal removal, a catching or carrying away. The word literally speaks of seizing something by force by way of plucking it up or pulling (snatching) it out. You remember how mom used to make you pull weeds out of the garden?
You had to pluck them out of the soil and remove them from the garden area. This is the picture behind the English phrase “caught up.”
A synonym for this word would be the word rapture. The word rapture points to a plucking away or catching away. Webster defines the word rapture as being transported to another place or sphere of existence.
The Oxford Dictionary defines rapture as “the act of conveying a person from one place to another” Someday we who are alive at the coming of the Lord will be “caught up” or transported to another place called Heaven.
Acts 8:39-40
“And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.”
In Acts 8:39, the same Greek word (harpadzo) appears, which carries the idea of being “caught away” and “taken to another place.” When Philip was finished baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch the Spirit of God raptured him or caught him away and divinely transported him to the coastal town Azotus. What a ride this must have been. Listen, if God did it for Philip, then He can do it for you and me some day.
The parallels of this text to the event of the rapture of God’s people at Christ’s coming are significant:
1. Acts 8:39 = Someday God’s people will vanish out of this old world
like Philip and they will see us no more!
2. Acts 8:40 = We will be found in the air above to meet the Lord and
return with Him to another place called Heaven.
Hal Lindsey has termed the rapture of God’s people from this earth as the “great snatch.” What a great snatch it will be when we are removed from this earth and transported into the sky above.
Friend, the word rapture itself does not appear in the Bible; however, it is a synonym for the English construction “caught up or caught away.”
2 Corinthians 12:2-4
“I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
In these verses we see the word used in the same sense of being snatched away. Paul was transported (raptured) by visionary means to Heaven and heard some sacred secrets of Heaven. In a like manner, we who are alive at Christ’s coming will be caught up (not in a visionary way) but bodily and literally to ultimately return to Heaven with the Lord.
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Post by Morris on Jan 20, 2011 16:23:49 GMT -5
I've seen so many of these types of writings, especially when I first decided to critically examine various systems of eschatology. I'll make two very brief comments. (I almost feel bad "quoting" mel for this - don't worry, I know you didn't "say" these things  ). The English phrase “caught away” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the Greek word “harpadzo” which points to a literal removal, a catching or carrying away. The word literally speaks of seizing something by force by way of plucking it up or pulling (snatching) it out. I wonder if they will recognize a "rapture" in Revelation 12:5? Or how they get out of not recognizing? Such a different use of the phrase "In a like manner" compared to how they use it in Acts 1:11. |
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Post by mellontes on Jan 20, 2011 17:11:19 GMT -5
Two excellent points, Sheldon!
I was planning to send him an article in return as to how preterists study out these kinds of things. The only one that I am aware of was written by Kelly Birks. Does anyone know of a link to someone else specifically on the subject of the "harpadzo" used in reference to the rapture?
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Post by Allyn on Jan 20, 2011 18:54:55 GMT -5
Ted, was that Kelly Birks article ever shared here on another thread? I seem to remember it from a couple of years ago.
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Post by mellontes on Jan 20, 2011 20:28:04 GMT -5
Ted, was that Kelly Birks article ever shared here on another thread? I seem to remember it from a couple of years ago. I really have no clue. I barely remember my wife's name... |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 20, 2011 20:35:15 GMT -5
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Post by Allyn on Jan 20, 2011 21:00:00 GMT -5
So while I was re-reading the article by Birks I found it interesting his quote by John Noe which said in effect the being caught up in the air could mean something within the spirit. Noe said:
“For believers alive today, this gathering is still relevant.
It takes place in the spirit realm, ‘in the air’ inside
you, that is, your spirit."
Interesting thought and seems possible. Any thoughts?
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Post by mellontes on Jan 20, 2011 21:06:37 GMT -5
Oh yeah. I have that issue. In Birk's conclusion he said the following: " Perhaps the best thing we could say at this point is that
Jesus Himself prayed against the very idea promulgated by
so many in the Church today. In John 17:15, Christ intercedes
to the Father on behalf of His Church, asking that the
Father would in fact not physically remove Christ’s Church
from the earth: “I pray that you would not take them out of
the world, but that you would guard them from the evil.” We
should pay attention to the word that Christ used when asking
the Father not to take His Church out of the world. The
Greek word that is translated as “take” is the word airo,
which means “to take, to lift, to remove.” Think of it—Christ
prayed that the Father would not “lift” His Church out of the
world! In light of this fact, why would we go against the
express will of Christ for His Church and insist that the Bible
teaches the very thing in one place that Christ prayed
against in another? Let us no longer re-define the biblical
harpazo. Rather, let us submit ourselves to the true meaning
of harpazo and rejoice in its Preterist implications." Unfortunately, the "world" in John 17:15 has nothing to do with the planet Earth...The "world," in my opinion, is that of the world of Judaism, and is strictly old covenant-related. The context reeks of such things. The evil of that world fits well with the "present evil world" of Galatians 1:4 and the evil generation of Matthew 12:39 and Luke 11:29. I found another link ( www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/2002_birks_response-rapture.html). It is Kelly Birk's response to Ed Steven's "Silence Demands a First Century Rapture." In the comments section afterward, one person uses the same John 17:15 as being proof enough... |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 20, 2011 22:07:37 GMT -5
I'll read that article later, but having read Ed's book I find it hard to believe that even Ed could believe what he has written referring to the church being taken off the earth into heaven. It just doesn't make sense in one way that Jesus would tell His people to flee Jerusalem and then immediately take them off the earth. But Stevens does make some good observations concerning the state of the church shortly after 70 AD.
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Post by Once4all on Jan 21, 2011 2:16:08 GMT -5
So while I was re-reading the article by Birks I found it interesting his quote by John Noe which said in effect the being caught up in the air could mean something within the spirit. Noe said: “For believers alive today, this gathering is still relevant. It takes place in the spirit realm, ‘in the air’ inside you, that is, your spirit." Interesting thought and seems possible. Any thoughts? At first I thought it sounded like a stretch. However, as I researched the usage of the word to construct this reply, I've changed my mind. John Noe could have a point. The word is not used very many times in the New Testament, and the usage predominantly means the air, or empty space, around you. Ephesians 2.2 seems to be the only oddball usage and that verse is probably the basis for Noe's suggestion. Acts 22:23 NASB - And as they were crying out and throwing off their cloaks and tossing dust into the air, 1 Corinthians 9:26 NASB - Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 1 Corinthians 14:9 NASB - So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 NASB - Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Revelation 9:2 NASB - He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. Revelation 16:17 NASB - Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done." ("into the air" sounds like it would be a better translation here and most other translations do translate it as "into").Ephesians 2:2 NASB - in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. The "prince of the power of the air" refers to an unholy/evil/ungodly spirit within man. I don't believe it refers to Satan or an entity of any kind, other than the individual's own corrupt "inner man." Following through on Noe's idea, "to meet the Lord in the spirit" could refer to a perfecting of the spirit. I just mentally flashed on Revelation where John says that he was "in the spirit on the Lord's day." This feels like it all wants to fit together, but it's after midnight so my thinking may be getting cloudy. I'd better sleep on it. |
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Post by Morris on Jan 21, 2011 11:27:46 GMT -5
At first I thought it sounded like a stretch. However, as I researched the usage of the word to construct this reply, I've changed my mind. John Noe could have a point. This has piqued my interest as well. What came to my mind was the similarity of meaning between "aer" (air) and "pneuma" (spirit). "aer" (G109) - from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient). Refers properly to an inanimate breeze. "pneuma" (G4151) - a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit. This connection between air and spirit with breath is also seen in the Hebrew. Also common in both Greek and Hebrew is the distinction of "heaven(s)" as indicating loftiness or elevation. |
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Post by mellontes on Jan 21, 2011 14:51:42 GMT -5
So while I was re-reading the article by Birks I found it interesting his quote by John Noe which said in effect the being caught up in the air could mean something within the spirit. Noe said: “For believers alive today, this gathering is still relevant. It takes place in the spirit realm, ‘in the air’ inside you, that is, your spirit." Interesting thought and seems possible. Any thoughts? At first I thought it sounded like a stretch. It is still a stretch... John 12:31 - Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. John 14:30 - Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. John 16:11 - Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. Ephesians 2:2 - Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: One would have to clearly prove that the prince of the power of the air is NOT the same prince of the world that was to be judged and cast out. To me, they are absolutely the same entity - especially when associating the "world" to be judged as related to the old covenant. Who were the children of disobedience? I say it is apostate Israel... |
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Post by Once4all on Jan 21, 2011 15:43:19 GMT -5
At first I thought it sounded like a stretch. It is still a stretch... John 12:31 - Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And the world is...? And the judgment is against...? Might the "prince of this world" be "this evil generation"? I don't disagree with your conclusion. I think we are actually saying the same thing. The only difference is that I'm defining it based on the evil in their corrupt hearts. |
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Post by mellontes on Jan 21, 2011 16:22:55 GMT -5
And the world is...? And the judgment is against...? Might the "prince of this world" be "this evil generation"? I don't disagree with your conclusion. I think we are actually saying the same thing. The only difference is that I'm defining it based on the evil in their corrupt hearts. I think there needs to be a whole lot more study and consideration as to who this bad prince really is, and the same thing with satan, which I believe to be the same entity, as is the original serpent who seemingly did not get destroyed in the flood along with that other tree  P.S. - has anyone run their mouse over (so that the tool tip text pops up) the various smileys and icons we have. It is rather funny... |
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Post by Once4all on Jan 21, 2011 22:05:29 GMT -5
... P.S. - has anyone run their mouse over (so that the tool tip text pops up) the various smileys and icons we have. It is rather funny... You mean in the edit area when we're typing a message. Seems the tools tips don't match the smileys much! For example, the little happy guy waving pops up with "Cry" the "Cool" thumbs up guy pops up "Wink" the praying dude says "Angry" and the winking dude says "Tongue" They are pretty messed up! Allyn, is there a way I can add or change smileys? A few of us don't really care for the larger smileys, anyway, because they mess up the look of the text if you use them inline. Some large ones are okay, such as the birthday cake and the ones holding signs, because you normally use those at the bottom of paragraphs or posts. I'd like to see more of a selection of the small smileys (without getting rid of the large ones, because they do get used!) Of the large ones, I like the praying, reading, and thinking dudes. I'll poke around the admin area and see if I can find access to them, sometime when I get time. |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 21, 2011 22:14:38 GMT -5
... P.S. - has anyone run their mouse over (so that the tool tip text pops up) the various smileys and icons we have. It is rather funny... You mean in the edit area when we're typing a message. Seems the tools tips don't match the smileys much! For example, the little happy guy waving pops up with "Cry" the "Cool" thumbs up guy pops up "Wink" the praying dude says "Angry" and the winking dude says "Tongue" They are pretty messed up! Allyn, is there a way I can add or change smileys? A few of us don't really care for the larger smileys, anyway, because they mess up the look of the text if you use them inline. Some large ones are okay, such as the birthday cake and the ones holding signs, because you normally use those at the bottom of paragraphs or posts. I'd like to see more of a selection of the small smileys (without getting rid of the large ones, because they do get used!) Of the large ones, I like the praying, reading, and thinking dudes. I'll poke around the admin area and see if I can find access to them, sometime when I get time. The smileys are of my selsction way back when I started this forum. There are the default smileys which I thought were very drab and so the administrator can insert the url for substitute smileys which in our case come from my image basket. If we were to change them now then all the smileys we have used to express what we want expressed will be completely out of the context they were first used. Its best we leave them as they are in my judgment. |
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Post by Once4all on Jan 21, 2011 22:28:11 GMT -5
The smileys are of my selsction way back when I started this forum. There are the default smileys which I thought were very drab and so the administrator can insert the url for substitute smileys which in our case come from my image basket. If we were to change them now then all the smileys we have used to express what we want expressed will be completely out of the context they were first used. Its best we leave them as they are in my judgment. Okie-dokie. There's always the options of linking in the smileys of our choice...  |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 30, 2011 19:28:47 GMT -5
I have been re-reading Ed Stevens book on the rapture. When I first got the book I had a hard time getting through it because he is far too repetitive as if he is trying to make the book have more pages or something. I still think he over stated some of his points but as I have been reading I am actually starting to agree with much of his case for a first century rapture.
For now I am just bringing this thread back to our attention and I may have more to say later.
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Post by Once4all on May 1, 2011 0:32:25 GMT -5
I have been re-reading Ed Stevens book on the rapture. When I first got the book I had a hard time getting through it because he is far too repetitive as if he is trying to make the book have more pages or something. I still think he over stated some of his points but as I have been reading I am actually starting to agree with much of his case for a first century rapture. For now I am just bringing this thread back to our attention and I may have more to say later. I'd like to read that book. Will have to pick it up someday. Amazon doesn't carry it. |
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Post by Morris on May 1, 2011 21:43:57 GMT -5
...his case for a first century rapture. Is this essentially like the modern dispensational rapture but in the first century? Or is it something different? |
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Post by Once4all on May 1, 2011 22:11:24 GMT -5
...his case for a first century rapture. Is this essentially like the modern dispensational rapture but in the first century? Or is it something different? Closer to the modern view, I think. I found a couple of web pages that address it. This first one is more of an overview: www.newjerusalemcommunity.net/?c=54&a=1266This next one is a little more detailed in that it explains some of the verses: www.preterism.info/articles/rapture.htmBoth articles are short. |
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Post by Morris on May 1, 2011 22:33:25 GMT -5
Thanks Bev, that was quick! I gave the two articles a quick read through. I do admit though, I find the conclusions to be based on weak explanations. The feeling I had while reading was that someone couldn't explain the rapture "proof-texts" to their satisfaction, and so came up with an idea to place in in 70AD and began 'forcing' it to work. But that's just my personal impression. |
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Post by Jah is Light on May 10, 2011 16:00:36 GMT -5
Hi Everyone,
Isn't 'the rapture' fake?
Jah is Light
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Post by Allyn on May 10, 2011 18:04:34 GMT -5
Hi Everyone, Isn't 'the rapture' fake? Jah is Light Define what "fake" means to you. |
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Post by Jah is Light on May 11, 2011 9:38:57 GMT -5
Hi Allyn,
I believe you know the definition of "FAKE"; right?
I was referring to the pre-millennial-dispensations position.
Preterists do not believe this way, do they?
Jah is Light
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Post by Allyn on May 11, 2011 11:30:34 GMT -5
Hi Allyn, I believe you know the definition of "FAKE"; right? I was referring to the pre-millennial-dispensations position. Preterists do not believe this way, do they? Jah is Light Fake means to pretend something. or is a knock-off of the real thing. So how do you take the rapture, if at all? |
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Post by Jah is Light on May 13, 2011 4:40:41 GMT -5
Hi Allyn,
As a false doctrine from pre-millennial-dispensationalists; how do you take it?
Jah is Light
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Post by Jah is Light on Jun 19, 2011 10:52:54 GMT -5
Bump for Allyn
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Post by Allyn on Jun 19, 2011 12:34:11 GMT -5
Hi Allyn, As a false doctrine from pre-millennial-dispensationalists; how do you take it? Jah is Light I am leaning towards the teaching that it took place at the end of the age. |
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