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Post by mellontes on Jan 19, 2011 9:56:20 GMT -5
Since I am on this kick of defining what we believe about certain things, I thought I would ask these two seemingly simple questions concerning the following Scripture:
2 Corinthians 3:18 - But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Define the first glory.
Define the second glory.
If you want me to go first, then just ask. I just didn't want to add my own bias into the question...sort of like leading the witness in a court of law. Not that any of you could possibly be affected...lol.
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Post by Allyn on Jan 19, 2011 16:34:31 GMT -5
You go first  BTW Ted, I think I have an answer so don't try and out do my answer because when you go first I already have the advantage. (SMILE) |
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Post by didymus on Jan 19, 2011 17:28:14 GMT -5
Forgive me, but I have to ask. Does it matter? Will it change my status if I knew the answer to that?  |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 19, 2011 17:46:50 GMT -5
Forgive me, but I have to ask. Does it matter? Will it change my status if I knew the answer to that? It doesn't matter in the realm of the big picture but I like to contemplate things I don't already understand and even share with others what I think I understand. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 19, 2011 18:04:47 GMT -5
Since I am on this kick of defining what we believe about certain things, I thought I would ask these two seemingly simple questions concerning the following Scripture: 2 Corinthians 3:18 - But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. Define the first glory.
Define the second glory.If you want me to go first, then just ask. I just didn't want to add my own bias into the question...sort of like leading the witness in a court of law. Not that any of you could possibly be affected...lol. The first glory was the "administration of condemnation", that is, the letter of the law . This coincided with the image of Moses. The second glory is the "administration of righteousness", that is, the spirit of the law. This coincides with the image of Christ. The second glory is "much more glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-18). It is unfortunate that the legalists cannot understand this. Some people just prefer to be like Moses. Roo |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 19, 2011 18:53:01 GMT -5
Since I am on this kick of defining what we believe about certain things, I thought I would ask these two seemingly simple questions concerning the following Scripture: 2 Corinthians 3:18 - But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. Define the first glory.
Define the second glory.If you want me to go first, then just ask. I just didn't want to add my own bias into the question...sort of like leading the witness in a court of law. Not that any of you could possibly be affected...lol. The first glory was the "administration of condemnation", that is, the letter of the law . This coincided with the image of Moses. The second glory is the "administration of righteousness", that is, the spirit of the law. This coincides with the image of Christ. The second glory is "much more glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-18). It is unfortunate that the legalists cannot understand this. Some people just prefer to be like Moses. Roo Hi Roo, I have never heard this angle before. Is this from a passage where it actually teaches the way you responded or is this from your own thoughts? I take it a different way so I am curious. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 19, 2011 18:59:49 GMT -5
Allyn wrote:
It's right in the biblical text itself (2 Corinthians 3:7-18).
Roo
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Post by Allyn on Jan 19, 2011 19:05:01 GMT -5
I see it. I was thinking that it had to do with the glory of Moses but its not his glory - as you rightly pointed out.
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Post by mellontes on Jan 20, 2011 0:47:51 GMT -5
Sorry...been very busy today. I guess I have to go next.
I am with Roo on this to a large extent. I would ask him though to define the "all" in this context as stated in 2 Corinthians 3:18:
2 Corinthians 3:18 - But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
I simply say that the first glory was the first covenant and the second glory (more glorious) was the second covenant. Now this brings in some difficulty for some when the two bodies of Scripture come into play - the natural body (first covenant body - first Adam) and the spiritual body (second covenant body - last Adam).
1 Corinthians 15:40-42 - There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
If we understand these to be individuals instead of corporate bodies, I think we go way off track... For instance, PaulT of CARM fame always insists theat the following verse is representative of a physical resurrection in the glorified body state fit for heaven:
Philippians 3:21 - Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
I prefer to look at this passge as regarding the transition of the Adamic body of sin (first Adam - vile) into the body of Christ (last Adam - glorious). It is not about individual bodies.
And the whole reference to the first Adam/last Adam in regard to the resurrection (when all these transition phases become complete) at the parousia and a return to the Garden state (tree of life) makes it difficult to be expressed strictly in terms of Mosaic Law and the people of that Mosaic law.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jun 20, 2011 10:26:20 GMT -5
1 John 4:17 - Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1 John 3:7 - Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:3 - And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
The glory of the old covenant may have been one, but the glory of CHRIST Himself is the other. That is the glory we participate in which while it is covenantal, is also much more glorious because He dwells in us. And so we are the clean vessels who bear His image in this kosmos/world. An image of purity and true righteousness and truth perfected in love as ambassadors to the nations of His grace and mercy.
Whereas the OC glory only showed the world His wrath and their need to repent, we show forth the love of God who alone is able to redeem them.
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Post by JLVaughn on Jun 20, 2011 11:02:55 GMT -5
The glory of the old covenant may have been one, but the glory of CHRIST Himself is the other. That is the glory we participate in which while it is covenantal, is also much more glorious because He dwells in us. And so we are the clean vessels who bear His image in this kosmos/world. An image of purity and true righteousness and truth perfected in love as ambassadors to the nations of His grace and mercy. Whereas the OC glory only showed the world His wrath and their need to repent, we show forth the love of God who alone is able to redeem them. Yes Robin, Covenant is what it's all about, from beginning to end. |
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Post by Once4all on Jun 20, 2011 20:20:03 GMT -5
The context appears to explain clearly what it means:
2 Corinthians 3:14-18 NASB
(14) But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
(15) But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
(16) but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
(17) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
(18) But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Moses to Christ; old covenant to new covenant. "But we all" speaks of the body of Christ "with unveiled face," but I think "are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory" refers to conversions of individuals as they are added to the church, as in —
Acts 2:38-41 NASB
(38) Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(39) "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
(40) And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"
(41) So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
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Post by crazyjane on Apr 20, 2012 12:55:57 GMT -5
YES, I finally found a place where truth is told!  |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 21, 2012 15:31:00 GMT -5
Welcome to Preterist Voice.
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