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Post by mellontes on Jan 18, 2011 21:03:13 GMT -5
I was wondering if we could all state our views exactly as possible in relation to the new Jerusalem and the NHNE. It would help us to understand each other when discussing these things.
My view is that individuals become a NHNE at salvation (2 Cor 5:17). And as a result, we reside in God's city, the new Jerusalem (the church, the bride, the Jerusalem which is above). Those outside the city's gates are out of the covenant and consequently not a NHNE. I used to believe in this equation: NHNE = NJ, but not anymore. I think there is a slight difference between the two.
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Post by Allyn on Jan 18, 2011 21:40:33 GMT -5
I was wondering if we could all state our views exactly as possible in relation to the new Jerusalem and the NHNE. It would help us to understand each other when discussing these things. My view is that individuals become a NHNE at salvation (2 Cor 5:17). And as a result, we reside in God's city, the new Jerusalem (the church, the bride, the Jerusalem which is above). Those outside the city's gates are out of the covenant and consequently not a NHNE. I used to believe in this equation: NHNE = NJ, but not anymore. I think there is a slight difference between the two. My view is that the NHNE is the state of things we are now forever in. The New Jerusalem is that better land Abraham was actually waiting for but never lived to see but is now in. It was for him to be looked forward to but for us is a reality but in the sense that it is experienced in our redeemed relationship to Christ. I am almost certain that most references to Zion in the Old Testament is actually a reference to the true Israel of God which is the Church. Don't ask me to support this at this time since it was from a short study I did about 6 years ago. I see I have a backlog going on here at PV as it is. |
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Post by wandashort on Jan 19, 2011 7:30:42 GMT -5
Thanks for making this a new thread...I would really like to see what you had done with your study Allyn. But no pressure! We are all busy.
So, we have so far:
NHNE as a state of being/things
NJ as the better state of being/place
and
Believers at salvation become the NHNE
Believers live in the NJ as the NHNE
Clear as mud. lol. I will just watch and see what you all continue with because I am very confused as to what the differences are again...blessings! w
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Post by Allyn on Jan 19, 2011 8:31:53 GMT -5
The New Heaven and the New Earth is The Kingdom of God.
The kingdom of God exists wherever the King – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His intimate spiritual jurisdiction. The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His Divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It includes heaven (and all those who are in heaven) – the place where with the kingdom is centered and administrated. Matthew frequently described the kingdom of God as the kingdom of heaven. Notwithstanding, it also includes the full extent of the true Church - the spiritual temple of God and the body of Christ on earth. It is therefore the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness is pre-eminent. Romans 14:17-18 says, “For the kingdom of God is … righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.” His kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are born-again of the Spirit of God. Christ’s kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that Kingdom. 1 Corinthians 4:20 says, “the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power (or) dunámei.”
The kingdom Christ brought at His first Advent was a spiritual domain. Nowhere in the words of Christ or anywhere else in the New Testament does it suggest He would reign over a physical kingdom (of natural Israel) on a physical throne in Jerusalem as some claim. Rather, He sits today upon a heavenly throne as heavenly king. His return again - a second time (Heb. 9:28) - at His all-consummating Second Advent introduced His eternal kingdom on earth. It was then that this corruptible put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53-54). The kingdom is therefore more than a heavenly hope and more than a future promised state. While the 1st century church participated in the ongoing spiritual reality of the kingdom of God, I believe that the kingdom came in all its final eternal glory at the Second Advent.
When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation, restoring their ancient borders. They believed that the appearance of Messiah would usher in a period of physical and spiritual bliss for Israel in which their enemies would be totally destroyed. The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial kingdom of which the Messiah the King would rule over. They believed He would immediately destroy every enemy that withstood the house of Israel. Their mistaken thinking was guided by a hyper-literalist attitude to Old Testament Messianic prophecies. These Christ confronted and exposed in His teaching. This expectation of a literal visible territorial kingdom was wrong, and revealed the ignorance which controlled the Jews at that time. They had a defective perception of the nature of God’s kingdom and the manner in which it would appear.
Luke 17:20-21 records an interesting discourse between Christ and the Pharisees on the subject of the kingdom of God, saying, "He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come." Christ immediately replied, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within (or) entos (Strong’s 1787) you." When Christ says "the kingdom of God is within you" it can only mean that the kingdom of God is a present reality within the spiritual realm which one enters by faith. No other explanation makes sense with his statement. His kingdom will continue to grow (Mark 4:30-31) and some say until such a time that it is complete and full of all those he has chosen. I believe there is no such a time as that. The Kingdom of God has no end of growth and as long as today is today, today is the acceptable day of the Lord (See Hebrews 4)
The day when He will choose to return for His people and hand over the kingdom to the Father has already come. The New Heaven and New Earth are here now. By the necessity of fulfilling and bringing to an end the old relationship God had with His people He has brought in the new relationship where the separation between God and man has been removed. However the NHNE/Kingdom of God is not present without casualties. For where there is freedom in Christ there is also slavery to wants and desires. Where there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1) there are those who refuse Him who speaks (Heb. 12:25). The Kingdom of God grows among the thorns and thistles and will always do so but the kingdom mark is revealed through love and peace and faith and righteousness.
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Post by mellontes on Jan 19, 2011 9:37:44 GMT -5
Allyn,
In your expanded version of the kingdom, I thought you were doing pretty good until the last two sentences. It seems you are now saying (as you have said before - let me know and I'll look further for the quote) that the kingdom of God applies to unbelievers as well. Is this your position? When answering, I need for you to start off with a simple yes or no to that question if planning to follow up with reasons why. Sometimes I get bogged down in the explanations and lose track...Thanks.
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Post by Allyn on Jan 19, 2011 10:09:34 GMT -5
Allyn, In your expanded version of the kingdom, I thought you were doing pretty good until the last two sentences. It seems you are now saying (as you have said before - let me know and I'll look further for the quote) that the kingdom of God applies to unbelievers as well. Is this your position? When answering, I need for you to start off with a simple yes or no to that question if planning to follow up with reasons why. Sometimes I get bogged down in the explanations and lose track...Thanks. The tricky part is separating out who is in and who isn't in but yes the kingdom of God at least involves unbelievers but (not sure "applies" is the word I would use) to the degree that all kingdom and authority is under the rule of Christ. The kingdom fills the whole earth and the earth (people) are all subject to it. Most people don't accept that subjection but it is there none the less. |
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Post by mellontes on Jan 19, 2011 11:44:46 GMT -5
Allyn, perhaps I should have used the word "included."
To me, the kingdom of God is not available to unbelievers because one must be "in Christ" to experience this covenant kingdom. And I stress covenant because the whole of the NT, in my opinion, is a transition from old covenant to new covenant. Not all people were included in either of these covenant worlds. Hint from another thread: "from glory to glory."
And as an aside, the "world" generally spoken of in the NT would be the old covenant world (kosmos). Hence, "be not conformed to this world" is an admonition to the 1st century Christians not to go back to the old ways. IMO, this would eventually be the great falling away...
Anyway, I could blab for a long time on the "worlds" of Scripture. Although I won't (or can't) be dogmatic about it, I think "the worlds" found in Hebrews 1:2 and Hebrews 11:3 may refer to the covenant worlds in regard to the "present age" and the "age to come" because Strong's 165 (Aion) is the word of choice in those two Hebrews passages.
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Post by Morris on Jan 19, 2011 15:47:21 GMT -5
I'm not settled on one side or the other concerning the NHNE at the moment but I do have a few comments.
First, all could (as in possibly) be considered 'under' the new covenant based on this verse;
2 Peter 2:1,
"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."
This suggests that the redemption in Christ's blood applies to all, even false teachers of "choices of ruin", and denying the ownership of the One that purchased them. This brings on them "swift ruin". But despite this ruin, this impending destruction, they were still purchased. The destruction comes from the 'disavowing' of this connection with God.
In another thread (which I will need to make much clearer), I discussed the concept of who keeps the covenant. One of the things that popped out to me in that study is that people entered the old covenant, wording I have not been able to find in relation to the new covenant.
I believe that may be the case based on the parties involved in the two covenants. In the old it was God and Abraham with his descendants (i.e. the people). God said "this is my portion of the agreement that I must uphold and this is your portion of the agreement that you must uphold, do you accept this agreement?". The people agreed but then failed and thus "broke the covenant".
However, the new covenant (based on the fact that the old one was ultimately to Christ anyway, because only He could uphold 'the people's' portion) is established in perfection between God and Christ. This covenant cannot be broken. But then it appears as though we are not in this covenant, and in very real sense, we aren't - we are in Christ and it is He that is in covenant with God. That is why we are heirs and co-heirs with Christ. Unlike the time of Moses when the blood of the covenant was sprinkled on the people, the blood of the new covenant was sprinkled on Jesus.
Coming back to beginning of this (rambling) post where I said "all could (as in possibly) be considered 'under' the new covenant", I still think this is a possibility. All can be viewed as 'under' the new covenant because it is the only covenant in existence that has power 'over' us. This is on the basis that God purchased all mankind and guaranteed the integrity of the covenant by assuming both sides. Our part now is to place our trust in Him as owner, partaking of the covenant through Christ.
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