Keep My covenant

The covenant is something that can be enigmatic and difficult to understand. At least that's been my experience. What I do see is that the old and new differ in one really significant aspect; who keeps the covenant.

Genesis 17:2,4,7,8
"And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.
As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

The covenant was between God and Abraham (and Abraham's descendants).

A covenant was made and God states His part of the agreement. The first and main part of God's side of the agreement is that He would be their God. The second portion is that He would give them the land of Canaan. But then He states Abraham's part, and the part of those after him.

Genesis 17:9
"And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations."

As is seen in Genesis 17:14, this covenant could be broken. In Exodus 2:24 we see God making good on His part of the agreement. Then of course we see God reminding the people of their part.
Exodus 19:4-6
"You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

We see a continual reminder for the people to keep their part of the agreement. "If you obey...", "If you listen...", "If you keep My commandments...". And the people agreed to it themselves.
Exodus 24:7,8
"Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words.”

Exodus 34:27,28
"Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

If I may note here, the Ten Commandments were the words of the covenant. In fact, "the words" and "commandments" share the same base Hebrew word. Thus we have the "ark of the covenant", the box of gathering of the words of the covenant.

Some interesting similarities:

(Exodus 34:1 NASB) Now the LORD said to Moses, "Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered. - THE TABLETS ARE PREPARED TO HAVE THE LAW WRITTEN UPON THEM. See also Exodus 24:12.

(Matthew 3:16-17 NASB) After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, (17) and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." - JESUS' HEART IS PREPARED TO HAVE THE LAW WRITTEN UPON IT. In baptism, your heart is cleansed, your conscience is clean (Hebrews 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38)

(Exodus 34:28 NASB) So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. - MOSES WAS 40 DAYS AND 40 NIGHTS WITHOUT FOOD OR DRINK. See also Exodus 24:18.

(Matthew 4:2 NASB) And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. - JESUS WAS 40 DAYS AND 40 NIGHTS WITHOUT FOOD OR DRINK.

So we have God's portion; Leviticus 26:9
"For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you".
And we have the people's portion; Leviticus 26:15
"and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant".

But herein lies the problem, we can't abstain from breaking this covenant. So when we read in Jeremiah 11:3,
"Thus says the LORD God of Israel: “Cursed is the man who does not obey the words of this covenant",
it really strikes home.

Jeremiah 11:8
"Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but everyone followed the dictates of his evil heart; therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do, but which they have not done."

By the breaking of the covenant the people actually set up the covenant to be a judgment to them. We see this in John's Gospel.
John 7:19
"Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?"
John 5:45
"Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust"
John 5:27
"and has given [the Son] authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man"

No one could keep the commandments demanded of the covenant,

Where do you get the idea that no one could keep the commandments? Apparently, no one did, but where does the idea come from that no one could? I need my memory refreshed.

and so the people became accused, charged with an offense by Moses (in that the covenant was confirmed through his sprinkling the people with the blood of the covenant). The covenant charged the people with the offense while Jesus said He would be the one to judge.

This is the great weakness of the law; that portion of the covenant that God placed people responsible for.
Romans 8:3
"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh"

We can't keep the covenant. Its weakness was our flesh. Not that a person could not maintain rituals but that a person could not maintain what the law really demanded; the holy standards of God (see Matthew 5:17-48). Can we really be perfect, "just as your Father in heaven is perfect"? Jesus said we would be.

So, can we keep that Holy of a covenant in perfection? I can't, but there was One who could.

Aren't we supposed to overcome the weakness of the flesh via the Spirit?

Galatians 5:16 NASB But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

To say that you "can't" is to deny the power of the Spirit given to you by God.

Romans 8:4 NASB so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Also Romans 8:5-9)

The requirements of the covenant, written on your heart, are fulfilled in you when you walk according to the Spirit of God. This is how you uphold your end of the covenant.

Hebrews 7:28
"For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever."

The Son came and fulfilled the law (that portion of the covenant that God placed people responsible for). Only God could be as perfect as God. So Jesus was able to "keep the covenant" where everyone else failed.

"Only God could be as perfect as God." This is Christianity's cop-out, choosing to ignore the texts that say otherwise. (Matthew 5:48, Romans 12:2, James 1:4, 1 Peter 1:15-16)

And what does that mean? It means that God's portion of the covenant (i.e. the promises) were valid only to Jesus. Since Jesus kept the Holy standards of God's law (the people portion of the covenant), God kept the Holy and "better" promises (the God portion of the covenant).

And of course this was all by design. God know beforehand that people would fail and that Jesus would come (after all, He sent Him). Even the law itself demonstrated that people could not measure up and constantly reminded people of their guilt through the sacrificial commands. Imagine being given orders and the very orders them selves remind you that you can't follow them! They taught that only God could never fail in a covenant relationship.

Therefore He told the people that a new covenant was going to be given to them. But could it really be any better than the old one? How could it possibly improve if only God was ever-faithful? I believe it improved because the covenant was made with Himself. That is, God would perform both sides of the agreement.

The new covenant is "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." (Hebrews 8:8) Where did God ever say he was making the new covenant with Himself?

In the old God said "I will..." and "you shall and shall not...", "If you will... I will...". But the new is different in this most basic condition.
Jeremiah 31:31-33
"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

The old could be broken because of us, but the new cannot be broken because God would take on Himself the responsibility of all sides. He says "I will" and we "shall be".

He said that of the old covenant, too:

Leviticus 26:12 NASB 'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people.

Exodus 6:7 NASB 'Then I will take you for My people, and I will be your God; and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Jeremiah 7:23 NASB "But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'

Jesus came and fulfilled the old covenant through His perfection, being God, and at the same time of confirming the old he makes it new by taking the responsibility from out of our hands and placing them in His. Do we have faith that allows us to relinquish that responsibility to Him?

There is so much more to this, such as the requirement of blood as proof of the death of the testator, and the true disposition of our heart, but the point is this - when we put our faith in Christ that He has done all that is required we are freed of that, including freedom from breaking God's covenant. Thus we read,
Romans 11:27
"For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins", and
Galatians 5:1
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."

So then what is our role?
John 6:29
"Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent"
Romans 13:10
"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law"

We simply respond out of sincere love because of what God has done. Then the walk begins, not from duty, but from love.

Bev
-------
God ... desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:3)

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3)

For us there is one God, the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Morris
Professor

Posts: 800

Keep My covenant Jan 19, 2011 17:46:23 GMT -5

Quote

Post by Morris on Jan 19, 2011 17:46:23 GMT -5

Jan 19, 2011 0:34:34 GMT -5 Once4all said:

The covenant was between God and Abraham (and Abraham's descendants).

Yes. I said so myself, "But then He states Abraham's part, and the part of those after him".

Some interesting similarities:

(Exodus 34:1 NASB) Now the LORD said to Moses, "Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered. - THE TABLETS ARE PREPARED TO HAVE THE LAW WRITTEN UPON THEM. See also Exodus 24:12.

(Matthew 3:16-17 NASB) After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, (17) and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." - JESUS' HEART IS PREPARED TO HAVE THE LAW WRITTEN UPON IT. In baptism, your heart is cleansed, your conscience is clean (Hebrews 10:22, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38)

(Exodus 34:28 NASB) So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. - MOSES WAS 40 DAYS AND 40 NIGHTS WITHOUT FOOD OR DRINK. See also Exodus 24:18.

(Matthew 4:2 NASB) And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. - JESUS WAS 40 DAYS AND 40 NIGHTS WITHOUT FOOD OR DRINK.

Yes, very interesting similarities indeed.

Where do you get the idea that no one could keep the commandments? Apparently, no one did, but where does the idea come from that no one could? I need my memory refreshed.

There are a few but here is a big one to me.
Matthew 5:20
"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."
The Pharisees not only followed the law but they followed an intense expansion of the law. From all appearances they did keep all that was commanded, and more. As Paul also claims, he was blameless in regard to the law when he was a Pharisee. The issue is that there was far more to the law than what was seen or observed.

As I said, "Not that a person could not maintain rituals but that a person could not maintain what the law really demanded; the holy standards of God (see Matthew 5:17-48)." In the law we find the Holy character of God. Unless we possess that character we can't fulfill the law. In Christ we participate in that character.

Let's not forget that one failure results in a complete breaking of the law and the covenant. One slight of the heart or mind and we would be guilty of breaking everything. For someone to have the potential to not break the law would mean that that person had the potential to not require Christ.

Aren't we supposed to overcome the weakness of the flesh via the Spirit?

Galatians 5:16 NASB But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

To say that you "can't" is to deny the power of the Spirit given to you by God.

Romans 8:4 NASB so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Also Romans 8:5-9)

The requirements of the covenant, written on your heart, are fulfilled in you when you walk according to the Spirit of God. This is how you uphold your end of the covenant.

Of course there is truth in this but I'd like to put it in perspective. If we are not under the law why are we required of the law? If I were on the autobahn where there is no law regarding speed limit, why would I be required to drive under a certain speed? I might think of safety but not by requirement.

However, if the law pertained to Christ as His obligation to fulfill (Matthew 5:17), and we are in Him and He in us, the law, by the Spirit of Him in us, will also be fulfilled in us. Not by our doing but by the Spirit in us. That Spirit will also work in us to greater standards. As we see in multiple passages, we are perfected in Christ unto God, but are also not yet perfect in ourselves (Hebrews 10:14, Philippians 3:12).

"Only God could be as perfect as God." This is Christianity's cop-out, choosing to ignore the texts that say otherwise. (Matthew 5:48, Romans 12:2, James 1:4, 1 Peter 1:15-16)

Matthew 19:21,
"Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” "

Is all we have to do to become perfect is sell what we have? Note that James states that we can not be perfect because no man can tame the tongue. This is a whole topic unto itself. If you'd like to continue it we could start a new thread. There is much more that can be said on this.

The new covenant is "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." (Hebrews 8:8) Where did God ever say he was making the new covenant with Himself?

Who was sprinkled with the blood of a covenant?
Hebrews 9:18-20,
"Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you."

Matthew 26:28
"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

In the old it was the people that entered into the covenant. In the new it was Jesus that stepped into that covenant, making it new. Let's examine Hebrews 8:8,
"Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah".

There is some very important wording going on in the Greek here. It does not say "make" in the Greek. It says "to complete entirely/execute". God will execute this covenant. It is quite different than "I will...", "you will...".

As for "house of Israel and with the house of Judah" I will just quickly look at Hebrews 3:4-6,
"For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end"

In short, I do not believe that these 'houses' are referring to biological genealogies. If this is literal then we are excluded, IMO.

He said that of the old covenant, too:

Leviticus 26:12 NASB 'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people.

Exodus 6:7 NASB 'Then I will take you for My people, and I will be your God; and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Jeremiah 7:23 NASB "But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'

Naturally, I pointed it out myself too. The difference is in the "and as for you...", the 'if you can measure up to the standard by which I demand within this covenant'; 'fail and you will not be my people'. In the new covenant God says He will do it.

Luke 1:67,68,72
"Now his [John's] father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people...
To perform the mercy promised to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant".

The 'true' covenant was always intended as being between God and His Christ. We see this in Galatians 3 as well.

Once4all
Global Moderator

Posts: 1,513

Keep My covenant Jan 19, 2011 21:58:26 GMT -5

Quote

Post by Once4all on Jan 19, 2011 21:58:26 GMT -5

Sheldon,

Thanks so much for your replies. I'm going to keep my responses brief because I'm not feeling well. My hubby and I seem to be passing some bug back and forth. I had a cold, then I got well and he got a cold that turned into bronchitis, now he's on the mend after seeing the doctor on Monday and I'm not feeling well again.

There are a few but here is a big one to me.
Matthew 5:20
"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."
The Pharisees not only followed the law but they followed an intense expansion of the law. From all appearances they did keep all that was commanded, and more. As Paul also claims, he was blameless in regard to the law when he was a Pharisee. The issue is that there was far more to the law than what was seen or observed.

As I said, "Not that a person could not maintain rituals but that a person could not maintain what the law really demanded; the holy standards of God (see Matthew 5:17-48)." In the law we find the Holy character of God. Unless we possess that character we can't fulfill the law. In Christ we participate in that character.

The problem with the Pharisees is that their heart wasn't in it. They'd mete out the letter of the law without regard to "justice and mercy and faithfulness" (Matthew 23:23). Under the old covenant, it was up to the individual to change their heart and spirit (Ezekiel 18:31); under the new covenant, God will write His law upon our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). (I'm not positive about that last part; I could not take the time to fully check the context of those scriptures.)

Let's not forget that one failure results in a complete breaking of the law and the covenant. One slight of the heart or mind and we would be guilty of breaking everything. For someone to have the potential to not break the law would mean that that person had the potential to not require Christ.

Repentance has always been an aspect of God's grace (Ezekiel 18). Ezekiel 18:14-17 could describe Jesus; Ezekiel 18:21-22 could describe all the rest of us.

Of course there is truth in this but I'd like to put it in perspective. If we are not under the law why are we required of the law? If I were on the autobahn where there is no law regarding speed limit, why would I be required to drive under a certain speed? I might think of safety but not by requirement.

The law has changed, but the requirement of living holy hasn't.

However, if the law pertained to Christ as His obligation to fulfill (Matthew 5:17), and we are in Him and He in us, the law, by the Spirit of Him in us, will also be fulfilled in us. Not by our doing but by the Spirit in us. That Spirit will also work in us to greater standards. As we see in multiple passages, we are perfected in Christ unto God, but are also not yet perfect in ourselves (Hebrews 10:14, Philippians 3:12).

Hebrews 10:14 NASB For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 NASB For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;

Romans 6:19b, 6:22b NASB ... so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification... and the outcome, eternal life.

Philippians 3:12 NASB Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Matthew 19:21,
"Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” "

Is all we have to do to become perfect is sell what we have? Note that James states that we can not be perfect because no man can tame the tongue. This is a whole topic unto itself. If you'd like to continue it we could start a new thread. There is much more that can be said on this.

That was a challenge for that particular man. He was too attached to his riches in his heart. That's not to say that many of us don't have that same problem, but we shouldn't apply one person's situation across the board.

For taming the tongue, the context is that of others taming it for us, as we tame the animals. James goes on to say that the poison produced by the tongue "ought not to be." We are expected to tame our own tongue.

James 1:26 NASB If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless.

1 Peter 3:10-12 NASB
(10) For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.
(11) "HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD; HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.
(12) "FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS, AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER, BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL."

I'll have to stop here.

Have a good night!

Bev
-------
God ... desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:3)

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3)

For us there is one God, the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Morris
Professor

Posts: 800

Keep My covenant Jan 20, 2011 11:06:45 GMT -5

Quote

Post by Morris on Jan 20, 2011 11:06:45 GMT -5

Before I respond to your comments, Bev, I'd like you to know that I'm not arguing against what you are saying. I actually agree. What I am attempting to point out is 'more', or 'the other side of the coin'. For example the statements in scripture that say we are perfect, and are not yet perfect. Both are true in their contexts. Or, that Christ fulfilled the law, and yet we are also to fulfill the law. I'm not suggesting an 'either/or' approach but a 'and' approach.

By the way, I pray you're feeling better today!

The problem with the Pharisees is that their heart wasn't in it. They'd mete out the letter of the law without regard to "justice and mercy and faithfulness" (Matthew 23:23). Under the old covenant, it was up to the individual to change their heart and spirit (Ezekiel 18:31); under the new covenant, God will write His law upon our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). (I'm not positive about that last part; I could not take the time to fully check the context of those scriptures.)

I fully agree and have fully stated so in my posts above. In fact, this is yet another example of going from the old where God says "and as for you..." (as in "you do") to going to the new where God says "I will do it". I'm not trying to suggest that we don't "pursue" righteous living (as Philippians 3:12 tells us we should). I'm suggesting that God has accomplished for us what we are seeking after. God has placed a new heart in us. We did not do that, He did. We pursue righteousness as a result of what He did.

Repentance has always been an aspect of God's grace (Ezekiel 18). Ezekiel 18:14-17 could describe Jesus; Ezekiel 18:21-22 could describe all the rest of us.

Yes, but only because Christ would come.
Romans 3:21-26
"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"

God literally "tolerated" those past sins until His grace would declare us innocent through Christ. There is an absolute ton of things that could be said from this passage but the gist of what I'm looking at is that God had in place beforehand (in the sense of 'already had in mind') that it would be Christ that would be the one capable of removing sin.

Repentance alone cannot remove sin anymore than the blood of a bull or goat can. What repentance did was bring God's tolerance until grace could remove sin by faith in what God did. But please don't get me wrong here either. Even today repentance comes first, along with faith, to receive grace. There can be no faith without repentance and no repentance without true faith.

The law has changed, but the requirement of living holy hasn't.

Fully agreed. The requirement was fulfilled in Christ and is to be lived out in us, as He is in us. However, our failure no longer breaks the covenant. If it did it would no longer be by faith.

I have no time left at the moment, but will continue later this afternoon if I can.

Once4all
Global Moderator

Posts: 1,513

Keep My covenant Jan 20, 2011 17:01:47 GMT -5

Quote

Post by Once4all on Jan 20, 2011 17:01:47 GMT -5

Before I respond to your comments, Bev, I'd like you to know that I'm not arguing against what you are saying. I actually agree. What I am attempting to point out is 'more', or 'the other side of the coin'. For example the statements in scripture that say we are perfect, and are not yet perfect. Both are true in their contexts. Or, that Christ fulfilled the law, and yet we are also to fulfill the law. I'm not suggesting an 'either/or' approach but a 'and' approach.

By the way, I pray you're feeling better today!

I am, a bit. Thank you! At least the headache part is gone.

The problem with the Pharisees is that their heart wasn't in it. They'd mete out the letter of the law without regard to "justice and mercy and faithfulness" (Matthew 23:23). Under the old covenant, it was up to the individual to change their heart and spirit (Ezekiel 18:31); under the new covenant, God will write His law upon our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). (I'm not positive about that last part; I could not take the time to fully check the context of those scriptures.)

I fully agree and have fully stated so in my posts above. In fact, this is yet another example of going from the old where God says "and as for you..." (as in "you do") to going to the new where God says "I will do it". I'm not trying to suggest that we don't "pursue" righteous living (as Philippians 3:12 tells us we should). I'm suggesting that God has accomplished for us what we are seeking after. God has placed a new heart in us. We did not do that, He did. We pursue righteousness as a result of what He did.

But not every believer pursues righteousness; some don't even seem to think it is important. God gives us the new heart, but I think it is up to us to maintain it as pure. That doesn't mean we will never sin, but if we do we know it and repent.

Yes, but only because Christ would come.
Romans 3:21-26
"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"

God literally "tolerated" those past sins until His grace would declare us innocent through Christ. There is an absolute ton of things that could be said from this passage but the gist of what I'm looking at is that God had in place beforehand (in the sense of 'already had in mind') that it would be Christ that would be the one capable of removing sin.

Where in scripture is the concept of "declared us innocent"? I'd like to look at that more fully to discern the meaning.

Repentance alone cannot remove sin anymore than the blood of a bull or goat can. What repentance did was bring God's tolerance until grace could remove sin by faith in what God did. But please don't get me wrong here either. Even today repentance comes first, along with faith, to receive grace. There can be no faith without repentance and no repentance without true faith.

Ezekiel 18:22 says that when a wicked man repents of his wickedness, "all his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him."

You wrote, "grace could remove sin by faith." What do you mean by "remove" sin? More precisely, what do you think the scripture means by it?

I assume this idea is from 1 John 3:5, which states, "You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin."

The word airo, translated as "take away," means to bear away or carry off. This immediately brings to mind the scapegoat of Leviticus 16.

There were two goats, one to be sacrified and offer its blood for atonement, the other must be live in order to "take away" the sins placed upon it.

So when Hebrews 10:4 says that "it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins," it is saying that the blood of the sacrifice does not take away sins (it atoned for them), but the living scapegoat is the one that takes away the sin. Jesus, of course, was both the sin offering and the scapegoat.

Enough here. The more I look, the more the focus branches out, and the longer the post gets!

The law has changed, but the requirement of living holy hasn't.

Fully agreed. The requirement was fulfilled in Christ and is to be lived out in us, as He is in us. However, our failure no longer breaks the covenant. If it did it would no longer be by faith.

Are you saying that there is no way to break the covenant? Are there scriptures I can peruse for that?

I'd like to look at Galatians 2:16 for a minute.

Galatians 2:16 NASB
(16) nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

The "works of the Law" refers to the sacrifices, the sin offerings. Our faith in Christ here refers to our firm belief that his offering replaced all need for any works of the Law. Our faith does not, however, remove the requirement of the Law to be holy.

Sheldon, I appreciate this discussion. I detect a small shift in my thinking as a result. Thanks.

I have no time left at the moment, but will continue later this afternoon if I can.

No problem! I know how it is. And I also have no problem if you don't want to pursue a discussion. Sometimes other things come up and we have to choose to let something else go. I understand completely.

Bev
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God ... desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:3)

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3)

For us there is one God, the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Morris
Professor

Posts: 800

Keep My covenant Jan 20, 2011 17:23:35 GMT -5

Quote

Post by Morris on Jan 20, 2011 17:23:35 GMT -5

Hebrews 10:14 NASB For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Perfected (past tense), being sanctified (present tense). And then in other verses we can also find perfected as future and sanctified as past.

(I'm not including the other two verses because I don't disagree with your thinking for posting them.)

Philippians 3:12 NASB Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

I'm not sure what the implication of the underlined is intended to show. The Greek states, 'I am pursuing yet IF also I may be grasping on which I also was grasped by Christ Jesus'. "If" is "a primary particle of conditionality". Paul pressed forward as though he could attain the perfection that attained him.

Reading further shows that God will show us the things in which we are not perfect. This is the work of the Spirit in us. Interestingly enough, Philippians 3:15 tells those that are perfect to be perfect minded and that if there is anything in which different to being perfect minded in that perfect person, God will show it to you.

Paul says be perfect, and become more perfect, for perfection has eagerly taken us. Christ has taken us so eagerly strive to display His perfection. His Spirit is within us to help whether we stumble or not.

Sorry, out of time again. More later.

Once4all
Global Moderator

Posts: 1,513

Keep My covenant Jan 20, 2011 18:20:44 GMT -5

Quote

Post by Once4all on Jan 20, 2011 18:20:44 GMT -5

Jan 20, 2011 17:23:35 GMT -5 Morris said:

Hebrews 10:14 NASB For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Perfected (past tense), being sanctified (present tense). And then in other verses we can also find perfected as future and sanctified as past.

(I'm not including the other two verses because I don't disagree with your thinking for posting them.)

It seems that when you read "those who are sanctified" you are reading it as meaning everyone (every believer) is sanctified. I see it as meaning those believers who are sanctified.

Or, to put it another way, I think you see it as saying the whole is presently sanctified and I see it as identifying a subset ("those") of believers who are (presently) sanctified.

For example, if you have a room full of students who have taken a test and are waiting for their results, the teacher might say "by this test the school has approved graduation for those who have passed."

"Those" does not mean everyone, but only "those" who have met the criteria (a passing grade or sanctification).

Jan 20, 2011 17:23:35 GMT -5 Morris said:

Philippians 3:12 NASB Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

I'm not sure what the implication of the underlined is intended to show. The Greek states, 'I am pursuing yet IF also I may be grasping on which I also was grasped by Christ Jesus'. "If" is "a primary particle of conditionality". Paul pressed forward as though he could attain the perfection that attained him.

Reading further shows that God will show us the things in which we are not perfect. This is the work of the Spirit in us. Interestingly enough, Philippians 3:15 tells those that are perfect to be perfect minded and that if there is anything in which different to being perfect minded in that perfect person, God will show it to you.

Paul says be perfect, and become more perfect, for perfection has eagerly taken us. Christ has taken us so eagerly strive to display His perfection. His Spirit is within us to help whether we stumble or not.

Sorry, out of time again. More later.

"Pressed forward as though he could attain"? That is introducing a concept not present. It sounds like you are saying that he's pretending that he can obtain something even though he knows he can't. It sounds like theological presupposition being forced onto the text. (I am not saying that you are doing this but that whatever resource the idea comes from has done it.)

Philippians 3:11 NASB
(11) in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Philippians 3:14 NASB
(14) I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Paul's language is that of working to obtain a real objective, it's not a fanciful, unnecessary exercise.

Here's another couple verses I'd like to look at for just a minute:

Galatians 5:5-6 NASB
(5) For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
(6) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

I bet we have different interpretations of what "the hope of righteousness" means. To me, it refers to the hope of that reward received for being righteous. Faith working through love is real-life, hands-on righteousness. This is compared to the one-time act of circumcision.

Being physically circumcised was falsely believed as ensuring one's salvation. Being circumcised, they thought they were "once saved, always saved." But the circumcision God recognizes is not the one-time act of the flesh (nor a one-time salvation prayer), but the circumcision of the heart that is faith working through love. An ongoing commitment to living for God in righteousness.

OK, done preaching. Got carried away.

Bev
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God ... desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:3)

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3)

For us there is one God, the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Morris
Professor

Posts: 800

Keep My covenant Jan 21, 2011 12:16:27 GMT -5

Quote

Post by Morris on Jan 21, 2011 12:16:27 GMT -5

I'm doing my best to respond to all of your comments, Bev, so this one actually goes back quite a few posts. But again I'd like to stress that from my perspective we are not disagreeing as much as you might have originally thought. The different lies in the angle at which we are seeing things (I think).