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Post by Once4all on Jan 14, 2011 0:09:03 GMT -5
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Post by didymus on Jan 14, 2011 11:39:49 GMT -5
I have no problem with assembling with other believers. But, what is a believer? And, where are they? As a preterist, I have another question. Hebrews 10,24-25 states, "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." What is meant by, "...as you see the Day approaching"? If that is referring to the "day of the Lord," or the "coming of Christ." How does that effect the writer's admonition to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together?  |
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Post by Morris on Jan 14, 2011 14:39:54 GMT -5
I have no problem with assembling with other believers. But, what is a believer? And, where are they? As a preterist, I have another question. Hebrews 10,24-25 states, "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." What is meant by, "...as you see the Day approaching"? If that is referring to the "day of the Lord," or the "coming of Christ." How does that effect the writer's admonition to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together? If you are at all interested in my opinion (in that I have no real 'evidence' to support it), I think "the day" here is the same type of day as is "the day" in the only other place in Hebrews that uses that exact same phrase. Hebrews 3:8 says, " Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness." "The day" may be a time of trial. In response to this the writer says " Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” " (Note the fuller passage as well.) Now look at Hebrews 10:19-25, " Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." In the day of trial in the wilderness, the people rebelled. In Hebrews, the people are reminded of this, and are told how important it is to remain true to God in trial, and to exhort one another. Notice the contrasts and sameness found within the two passages; - "beware brethren" to "therefore brethren"* - "evil heart" to a "true heart" - "unbelief" to "full assurance of faith" - "departing from the living God" to "enter the Holiest" and "draw near" - "Do not harden your hearts" to "consider one another" - "exhort one another" with "exhorting one another" - "hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" with "hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering" * the author only uses "brethren" three times in this book. The third time is at the end when he says " And I appeal to you, brethren, bear with the word of exhortation". So in my opinion, "the day" is a day of trial that was in the process of coming to them (such that they could then see it coming). However, I don't think this means there is no application to us either. What was true for them to do in the face of trial is true for us in the face of trial. |
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Post by Once4all on Jan 14, 2011 15:00:02 GMT -5
I have no problem with assembling with other believers. But, what is a believer? And, where are they? Believers, it seems, are identified by each individual based on what he himself believes. I have a choice. I can love and embrace as a brother or sister everyone who believes in God and that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; or, I can draw a nice little grid and place each person in a box based on individual doctrinal beliefs, some being acceptable in my eyes and some not. The first option is one of love; the second, one of arrogance. As a preterist, I have another question. Hebrews 10,24-25 states, "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." What is meant by, "...as you see the Day approaching"? If that is referring to the "day of the Lord," or the "coming of Christ." How does that effect the writer's admonition to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together? The author is not a preterist, so he has a different view of Hebrews 10:24-25. It did not negatively affect my view of his article. |
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Post by mellontes on Jan 14, 2011 17:22:45 GMT -5
As a preterist, I have another question. Hebrews 10,24-25 states, "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." What is meant by, "...as you see the Day approaching"? If that is referring to the "day of the Lord," or the "coming of Christ." How does that effect the writer's admonition to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together? If you are at all interested in my opinion (in that I have no real 'evidence' to support it), I think "the day" here is the same type of day as is "the day" in the only other place in Hebrews that uses that exact same phrase. Hebrews 3:8 says, " Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness." "The day" may be a time of trial. In response to this the writer says " Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” " (Note the fuller passage as well.) Mr. Morris, as you already know, I believe the day approaching is in reference to the parousia event. I think verse 37 from that same chapter gives a good indication of that. Is there another verse or verses that can be connected to Hebrews 10:37 if not Hebrews 10:25? I think that question deserves some attention. The day "approaching" (one that is in the future) MAY be compared to Hebrews 3:8 of one that was in the past. There is no question that in trying times we ought to be an encouragement to each other. The application is timeless. Now look at Hebrews 10:19-25, " Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." In the day of trial in the wilderness, the people rebelled. In Hebrews, the people are reminded of this, and are told how important it is to remain true to God in trial, and to exhort one another. Notice the contrasts and sameness found within the two passages; - "beware brethren" to "therefore brethren"* - "evil heart" to a "true heart" - "unbelief" to "full assurance of faith" - "departing from the living God" to "enter the Holiest" and "draw near" - "Do not harden your hearts" to "consider one another" - "exhort one another" with "exhorting one another" - "hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" with "hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering" * the author only uses "brethren" three times in this book. The third time is at the end when he says " And I appeal to you, brethren, bear with the word of exhortation". So in my opinion, "the day" is a day of trial that was in the process of coming to them (such that they could then see it coming). However, I don't think this means there is no application to us either. What was true for them to do in the face of trial is true for us in the face of trial. I don't have a problem with the applications you are drawing at all. I would hoever, have a problem with pastors who quote that passage in an attempt to make us come Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and mid-week, every week of the year. Their purposes are totally out of context. I know. I was reminded of that passage at least once a month for years... And considering the date of writing of the book of Hebrews as 64-68 AD, even by dispensationalists, the whole outworking of the rebellion by various factions of Jews and the resulting annihilation and slavery by the Romans would be very indicative of the day of the Lord. I'm not entirely sure if I understood Tom's question of "How does that effect the writer's admonition to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together?" Perhaps he would be willing to explain further... |
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