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Post by wandashort on Dec 6, 2010 10:33:02 GMT -5
Hey everyone, I would appreciate your thoughts on the following questions:
1. Do you attend church?
2. If not, why not? What do you think church should be?
3. If you do attend a local church, why?
4. What is the most compelling reason for you to attend YOUR local church?
5. Are you officially a member of your church?
I have been pondering the importance of local fellowship and being connected in with a local church for quite some time now. Some of you here know of my journey in that regard and that I am once again back in complete fellowship with my church here in Fort Myers but my answers to the above questions are completely different than even those that I share fellowship with so I am interested in hearing your opinion.
Blessings, w
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 6, 2010 12:27:52 GMT -5
Wanda asked: 1. Do you attend church?Yes and the online community can be no substitute for it.2. If not, why not? What do you think church should be?I have come to the place where I ask not what the church should be but what I should be.3. If you do attend a local church, why?Yes because my wife would kill me if I didn't. 
Seriously, I have forsaken church in the past and it broke my wife's heart and I set myself up for temptations.4. What is the most compelling reason for you to attend YOUR local church?Because I need the fellowship and my family needs for me to set the example. I can pray for my online community here. But I cannot visit my online friends in their homes if they are sick and discouraged. I cannot have my online friends over for dinner. All I can do here is participate in the "Let's Share Recipes" thread.5. Are you officially a member of your church?Yes. I am an active member of a PCA church and am an ordained officer in the PCA. By "active" I mean that I attend church regularly and and I serve my church. I will be a trustee in the class of 2011-2014.
I attend church because I have grown up in the Lord. I no longer forsake church over every doctrinal issue or offense.Roo |
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Post by Morris on Dec 6, 2010 13:43:34 GMT -5
Overall, great response, Roo! I especially like this insight, "I have come to the place where I ask not what the church should be but what I should be".
The only real difference I would have is that my church doesn't have an "official membership". Tithing is openly said from the front "to be for those who call [this church] their home church". In other words, if you are visiting from another church, save your tithes for that church (although offerings are certainly accepted). Point being, we aren't in competition with other churches, and if one has "official membership" or not is besides the point.
As another side note, there is something else that is said by our pastor that really speaks to me; "Don't participate in speaking down of another church". It just fosters resentment in others, pride in ourselves, and confirmation in an unbeliever's heart. Disagreement can be done within sincere love.
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Post by wandashort on Dec 6, 2010 13:57:56 GMT -5
Thanks Roo and Morris! I really appreciate your responses. I really liked what you said Roo about being able to pray for online fellowship relationships but not being able to go that extra step to be an encourager to them...really important.
You go to a PCA church? That is where we (8 of us) were forced to leave due to our preterist views and what prompted the early planting of Messiah Reformed Church (Ft. Myers). You may have shared previously, and I apologize if I missed it!, but do you share your eschatological views with the church? I am just curious since they moved very quickly and abruptly to cut us out as soon as it became known.
Morris - I really appreciate what your pastor says about supporting your home church! And "disagreement can be done within sincere love" is something that we can all be reminded of!! Thanks friend!
wanda
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Post by Once4all on Dec 6, 2010 14:07:08 GMT -5
Hi Wanda! Here are my responses to your questions.
1. Do you attend church?
Yes
2. If not, why not? What do you think church should be?
3. If you do attend a local church, why?
Primarily for the fellowship. To be around other believers.
4. What is the most compelling reason for you to attend YOUR local church?
My husband and I left this church after attending for almost 8 years. We left for 8 months. The reasons are documented elsewhere on these forums because it all happened recently. We've been back now for 8 months. (What's with the eights? LOL.)
We left because our beliefs changed over time. I guess that's normally classified as "doctrinal differences." But in the area where we live, there was no finding any church close to our own beliefs (non-trinitarian preterist; well, we're both non-trin, but I'm the only preterist). We did not leave over any voiced disagreement or personal offense, it simply became uncomfortable in spirit (especially for me) to listen to teachings I disagreed with.
But during that 8 months, we'd run into people from church who were confused why we left and wanted us to come back, and in truth we missed the people, the fellowship. Eight months is not a long time, but in that time I grew in my understanding of what was important. And it's not doctrine... at least not to the extent that one should remove themselves from fellowship.
5. Are you officially a member of your church?
Our church doesn't really have "official membership." If you're a Christian and you attend regularly, you're considered a member. We were involved in operations of the church for the 8 years we were there previously, and continue to participate after returning.
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Post by Allyn on Dec 6, 2010 15:07:39 GMT -5
1. Do you attend church?I have not been to the place where one of the church worships is held for almost a year 2. If not, why not? What do you think church should be?I have not because of the inner struggle I have had in forming a relationship with the people there. The local church should be one which takes care of the widows and needy (no orphans in my small town), worships in spirit and truth and avoids the busibodiness so typical. 3. If you do attend a local church, why?When I did I was and still am acute to my purpose for being there however it was also a habit for me. I did not realize how much of a habit it was until I was not going. (Some habits are good though) I also felt very guilty if I missed even one Sunday a year. 4. What is the most compelling reason for you to attend YOUR local church?Now it would be share love and fellowship with others who want it shared with them. I like very small congregations and I feel so much more comfortable in small settings. 5. Are you officially a member of your church?I was but don't know if I still am. No one has inquired of my absense and at one point the newsletter quit coming in the mail so I guess that may tell the story. 
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 6, 2010 17:00:06 GMT -5
Wanda asked:
Wanda,
I shared my Preterism in relation to my church in the "Hello from Maryland" thread in "Introduce Yourself" forum. I also shared it in the "Setting the Record Straight" thread in the "Venting and Air conditioning" forum.
My Preterist views are known. At the first PCA church I attended I was ordained a deacon in spite of my Preterist views on the Revelation. The pastor contradicted me from the pulpit but ordained me anyway. One of the elders who ordained me was also a Preterist. The Presbytery removed him from office for his views on creation which were unrelated to his being a Preterist. At the PCA church I now attend I was asked to present the Preterist view in the Sunday School hour for two consecutive Sundays some years ago. The pastor was outwardly opposed to my view but he loved me anyway. I agreed to censorship after that and for the sake of unity I do not push my views within the walls of the church.
I love the PCA church I now attend and I have no intentions of leaving it.
I must say that I don't understand your statement that you were "forced out" of your PCA church. I have heard of officers being removed from office but not of non-ordained members being forced out. I would just shake the dust off my feet anyway.
Roo
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Post by wandashort on Dec 7, 2010 8:04:02 GMT -5
Thanks for your response Bev...I seems we share a similiar experience! I left my church for about 8 months too and in that time grew tremendously and realized that in the body it is critical to engage in face to face fellowship! I was incredibly discouraged during the time I was not involved locally...I started to cling to the false feeling of fellowship that is found online (tho I cherish my relationships developed in this online community!) and slowly I despaired more each day. But it was a season that God had me endure so that on the flipside of it I could experience the deeper JOY and rejoicing of reconciliation!
I am so glad to hear you are back and serving in ministry again there...I am sure that you are needed and appreciated! Will you share how you are faring with hearing the same message that you dont agree with? How do you handle it differently now?
Blessings, w
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Post by wandashort on Dec 7, 2010 8:09:30 GMT -5
Thanks Allyn, it must be very difficult being in a small town where there arent many choices. Do you the inclination to start a home fellowship? I only ask because I already know that you have a pastoral heart and certainly are able to teach...just seems like you could really be a blessing to others who are disallusioned with the "church" and the message it puts out there (by word and deed..or lack thereof!).
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Post by wandashort on Dec 7, 2010 8:30:00 GMT -5
Roo - I will go back and read those blogs...sorry to have you repeat! That is a fascinating testimony tho and to me it speaks very clearly of the love that your pastors have for you (and vice versa) to give you voice and that is SO encouraging to me! It gives me hope that more and more churches will be more open to discussing the view instead of just clamping down on it.
I also LOVED our PCA church. It was a terrible time for us when we first realized that what we were believing was considered a heresy. I have only shared our experience at the SGP site when it was happening 2 years ago but I ended up deleting all of the blogs because our teens were accessing the site and it was very confusing to them. Basically, in a nutshell here is what happened to us:
We (group of 8) were meeting weekly for prayer re: planting a PCA sister church in 2 or 3 years...this group included our youth pastor (Alan Bondar), the rest of us were all youth group leaders, as well as: two of us were in the worship band, four of us were staff members of the church/school, and all were deeply involved in the church.
Once it became known that we were all studying preterism it was swiftly decided that staffers would be termed (tho one did get to stay on for a few months to finish out the school year) and NONE of us could serve in ministry from that point forward. We were given 24 hrs to clean out Alan's office and we were not allowed to be at youth group the following day. The teens whom we were deeply involved with (I was the student leaders director) for the previous 6 years were only told that we were all heretics bound for hell...seriously. and in one fell swoop most of their leaders adn youth pastor were gone with confusing and mixed stories.
Now, those of us who wanted to could have stayed at the church in a non leadership capacity, undergone counseling with the elders and a probation period of at least a year and then if we denounced our views publically to the congregation might have been able to return to ministry roles. None of us chose that. Since then, the presbytery has intervened and due to the improper handling of the situation and other things that pastor who orchestrated all of that was removed and attempts were made to smooth things over with some of us.
There is no more bitterness on our end because truthfully, even from the first day (not counting the pain and anguish of leaving our teens that we loved adn cared for...) we were thrilled to be able to study and teach and have ALan preach a fulfilled message without fear of retribution or contempt! Things are going very well...we continue with Messiah Reformed Church in Fort Myers and have 12-14 regular attenders and we are very active in each other's lives and excited about the future! So, we have "shaken the dust" so to speak and have been been forging forward.
Hope that clarifies...and explains why I am so encouraged by your testimony Roo!
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Post by Once4all on Dec 7, 2010 21:45:38 GMT -5
...Will you share how you are faring with hearing the same message that you dont agree with? How do you handle it differently now? Well, it is still very uncomfortable to hear, but I will usually use it to further my own studies. I'll make a note of what verses were referenced and review them to refresh why I disagreed. Often, I'll browse some scriptures during the sermon and discover things that maybe I hadn't seen before. For example, just this past Sunday a part of the sermon brought up John 1:1 and 1:14. My views are different than what was presented. While browsing through my Bible in church, I came across Matthew 1:21-23 NASB (21) "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (22) Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: (23) "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US." In other words, "the Word became flesh." "To fulfill what was spoken" (the Word) ... "the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son" (became flesh). In your response to Roo, you wrote: "Once it became known that we were all studying preterism..." Are you saying they took all those measures against you simply for studying preterism? Or did you actually tell them that you fully believed what you were studying? To me, for them to do what they did simply for studying something contrary to their teaching smacks of a cult. Really. It amounts to them trying to control what you investigate outside of their teachings, keeping you inside their own fenced area of doctrine. |
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Post by Morris on Dec 8, 2010 18:45:21 GMT -5
In other words, "the Word became flesh." "To fulfill what was spoken" (the Word) ... "the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son" (became flesh). Absolutely fascinating! I have never seen it quite like that before and I have to agree with it. However, (and I bet you know I would say that ) there are other aspects in this passage that cannot be explained in this matter. I won't discuss them here as this is not the thread to do so. |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 9, 2010 0:57:15 GMT -5
In other words, "the Word became flesh." "To fulfill what was spoken" (the Word) ... "the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son" (became flesh). Absolutely fascinating! I have never seen it quite like that before and I have to agree with it. However, (and I bet you know I would say that ) there are other aspects in this passage that cannot be explained in this matter. I won't discuss them here as this is not the thread to do so. Agreed. It (the John passage) needs to be looked at further with this in mind. Fulfillment of God's promise to send a Messiah (deliverer) is generally how I've viewed that passage since moving away from a trinitarian view, but seeing the correlation in Matthew 1 was exciting for me because it adds a Matthew link to the gospel pattern that I describe here: web.cloudbow.com/blog/?p=59But as you said, this is not the thread for this discussion. (Sorry, Wanda. I don't want to sidetrack your very excellent thread! Back on track as of now.) |
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Post by Allyn on Dec 9, 2010 8:40:13 GMT -5
Bev, is this link to your blog? Agreed. It (the John passage) needs to be looked at further with this in mind. Fulfillment of God's promise to send a Messiah (deliverer) is generally how I've viewed that passage since moving away from a trinitarian view, but seeing the correlation in Matthew 1 was exciting for me because it adds a Matthew link to the gospel pattern that I describe here: web.cloudbow.com/blog/?p=59But as you said, this is not the thread for this discussion. (Sorry, Wanda. I don't want to sidetrack your very excellent thread! Back on track as of now.) |
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Post by wandashort on Dec 9, 2010 9:07:37 GMT -5
LOL - NO problem! Will you start a new thread for that? I would like to see your thoughts on it...
ALso, to answer your question Bev about us being removed for only studying preterism. I had to really think about it (and it was back 20 months ago) but yes, they removed us all from our ministry positions (whether paid or voluntary) for simply studying it. But, in the PCA's defense it was not handled as properly as we found out later they would have wished it. The pastor that was there at the time forced a lot of stuff to happen very quickly and so I dont think that is the standard modus operandi. But it all worked out in the end...we can worship freely and they got a new pastor who is begining to bring about healing.
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 9, 2010 11:16:40 GMT -5
LOL - NO problem! Will you start a new thread for that? I would like to see your thoughts on it... ALso, to answer your question Bev about us being removed for only studying preterism. I had to really think about it (and it was back 20 months ago) but yes, they removed us all from our ministry positions (whether paid or voluntary) for simply studying it. But, in the PCA's defense it was not handled as properly as we found out later they would have wished it. The pastor that was there at the time forced a lot of stuff to happen very quickly and so I dont think that is the standard modus operandi. But it all worked out in the end...we can worship freely and they got a new pastor who is begining to bring about healing. Wanda, This last October I spoke with an elder who still attends the first PCA church I attended. I have not spoken to him for about eight years. He attended the Sunday School class inwhich I taught my Preterists views on the Revelation. In a telephone conversation then he told me that he disagreed with me. But never did he treat me like I was not a brother. After eight years have passed he thanked me for introducing him to Preterism. It became obvious to me that he has been investigating Preterism these last years for he cited a couple of Preterist authors which he likes. He brought the subject of Preterism up to me. I called to ask about the well being of another person. Roo |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 9, 2010 13:52:03 GMT -5
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Post by Once4all on Dec 9, 2010 14:00:59 GMT -5
LOL - NO problem! Will you start a new thread for that? I would like to see your thoughts on it... ALso, to answer your question Bev about us being removed for only studying preterism. I had to really think about it (and it was back 20 months ago) but yes, they removed us all from our ministry positions (whether paid or voluntary) for simply studying it. But, in the PCA's defense it was not handled as properly as we found out later they would have wished it. The pastor that was there at the time forced a lot of stuff to happen very quickly and so I dont think that is the standard modus operandi. But it all worked out in the end...we can worship freely and they got a new pastor who is begining to bring about healing. Wanda, This last October I spoke with an elder who still attends the first PCA church I attended. I have not spoken to him for about eight years. He attended the Sunday School class inwhich I taught my Preterists views on the Revelation. In a telephone conversation then he told me that he disagreed with me. But never did he treat me like I was not a brother. After eight years have passed he thanked me for introducing him to Preterism. It became obvious to me that he has been investigating Preterism these last years for he cited a couple of Preterist authors which he likes. He brought the subject of Preterism up to me. I called to ask about the well being of another person. Roo That's good to hear. Sometimes simply letting someone know that we believe differently about something is a small seed that will later germinate. |
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Post by didymus on Dec 10, 2010 4:29:25 GMT -5
Hey everyone, I would appreciate your thoughts on the following questions: 1. Do you attend church? No. When Jesus said, "I will build MY church," that is exactly what he meant. How did he do that? He purchased the church with His blood. What does the word "purchased" mean. It means, "paid for." When something in purchased, that something belongs to, is owned by, the puchaser. So, Jesus owns the church. And, as owner of the church, He has sole authority in the church, which is established in Ephesians chapter 1. So, the church does not belong to Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, Menno Simons, Jacob Ammons, Joel Osteen or John Hagee, etc. Establishing a "church" based on the teachings of a man is is not following Christ. As Christians, we are to follow Christ, and only follow men who are themselves are following Christ. Most churches I know of are not following Christ, but are following men who are not following Christ. That's why I don't attend any "church."  |
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Post by didymus on Dec 10, 2010 4:44:25 GMT -5
In your response to Roo, you wrote: "Once it became known that we were all studying preterism..." Are you saying they took all those measures against you simply for studying preterism? Or did you actually tell them that you fully believed what you were studying? To me, for them to do what they did simply for studying something contrary to their teaching smacks of a cult. Really. It amounts to them trying to control what you investigate outside of their teachings, keeping you inside their own fenced area of doctrine. Do you know any "churches" that don't do that? I found that same thing in the church of Christ I was attending regarding musical instruments. I have been told I was a troublemaker for even asking questions. |
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Post by didymus on Dec 10, 2010 5:01:28 GMT -5
...Will you share how you are faring with hearing the same message that you dont agree with? How do you handle it differently now? Well, it is still very uncomfortable to hear, but I will usually use it to further my own studies. I'll make a note of what verses were referenced and review them to refresh why I disagreed. Often, I'll browse some scriptures during the sermon and discover things that maybe I hadn't seen before. For example, just this past Sunday a part of the sermon brought up John 1:1 and 1:14. My views are different than what was presented. While browsing through my Bible in church, I came across Matthew 1:21-23 NASB (21) "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (22) Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: (23) "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US." In other words, "the Word became flesh." "To fulfill what was spoken" (the Word) ... "the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son" (became flesh). There is a thread at Way of Truth that deals with that subject, that many of you had already replied to. Perhaps you'd like to see what you said. You can do so at: wayoftruth.motion-forum.net/jesus-the-christ-f17/jesus-the-word-t31.htmThe thread is titled, "Jesus the Word." The OP is based on John 1.  |
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Post by Once4all on Dec 10, 2010 15:18:12 GMT -5
In your response to Roo, you wrote: "Once it became known that we were all studying preterism..." Are you saying they took all those measures against you simply for studying preterism? Or did you actually tell them that you fully believed what you were studying? To me, for them to do what they did simply for studying something contrary to their teaching smacks of a cult. Really. It amounts to them trying to control what you investigate outside of their teachings, keeping you inside their own fenced area of doctrine. Do you know any "churches" that don't do that? I found that same thing in the church of Christ I was attending regarding musical instruments. I have been told I was a troublemaker for even asking questions. The Church of Christ that I attend is not that way. I mean, hey, they allow me, a non-trinitarian preterist, to serve and minister in their midst. Also, they use instruments. Many non-instrumental Churches of Christ are overly controlling and legalistc, but I know of a few that aren't, so no sweeping statements can be made about the denomination as a whole. (Which I'm sure is true of any Christian denomination or group.) |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 10, 2010 15:22:13 GMT -5
Bev wrote:
Cool!
Roo
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 10, 2010 15:37:15 GMT -5
Hey Wanda,
I noticed that no one replied on Bible Wheel.
Roo
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Post by wandashort on Dec 13, 2010 12:06:16 GMT -5
Hey Wanda, I noticed that no one replied on Bible Wheel. Roo Actually, I got a lot of feedback but all PM. I find that a lot of people over there prefer to respond that way. I don't spend too much time there but have had correspondence with Richard and will be posting some stuff in the book review section regarding preterist authors and their works...I have just been struggling with time issues! Thanks Didy for your response too! It is very helpful and I appreciate your time in responding. blessings, w |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 13, 2010 12:35:14 GMT -5
Hey Wanda, I noticed that no one replied on Bible Wheel. Roo Actually, I got a lot of feedback but all PM. I find that a lot of people over there prefer to respond that way. I don't spend too much time there but have had correspondence with Richard and will be posting some stuff in the book review section regarding preterist authors and their works...I have just been struggling with time issues! Thanks Didy for your response too! It is very helpful and I appreciate your time in responding. blessings, w You have replies at Bible Wheel now. I am concerned that so many Preterists do not attend church. We're not going to change the world too much the way we're going. Roo |
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Post by preteristaynrand on Dec 16, 2010 16:06:44 GMT -5
Hi Wanda-
I no longer attend organized religious services at the Non-Denom. Community Church I once attended because in my search for Truth, being fed skin- of- the- truth stuffed with lies does not sound like a wise use of my time. Error begets error. It is the same consistent reason I don't attend Mormon services, Jewish services or Jehovah's Witness services.
Would it be wise for me to attend Mormon, Jewish or Jehovah's Witness services? No, it would not. Just as my Community Church leaders trampled on the pearls of God's wisdom that is the truth of Preterism, the Mormon, Jewish and JW folks would behave in like manner. Also, it is not required of me, so why bother?
It is the same reasoning we use for not sending our children to public school.
Plus, how many times are we told to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing?
God has given my wife and me two wonderful children to raise as God loving adults. In a nutshell, there's a church right there......
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Post by Morris on Dec 17, 2010 11:23:01 GMT -5
In my opinion, one that I have no issue defending, is that Christ is the pearl of God's wisdom, not some doctrine to which I hold myself. Love and fellowship are of greater importance to the Christian and to God, and in this we are not to have a spirit of fear such that we hid ourselves in some spiritual bomb-shelter of our own creation.
The greatest error we could commit as Christians is to hid our light instead of displaying it on the hilltop. And by light I am not referring to what most call doctrine, but to what scripture usually calls sound doctrine - our character that exemplifies our partaking of the divine nature.
We have been given newness of life to influence and serve, not consume that life for ourselves. In other words, how effective is the body when it turns to it's hand, or foot, or heart, and says "I have no need of you". Perhaps even that is the wrong perspective, and in effect we have said "you have no need of me".
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 17, 2010 11:37:23 GMT -5
Hi Wanda- I no longer attend organized religious services at the Non-Denom. Community Church I once attended because in my search for Truth, being fed skin- of- the- truth stuffed with lies does not sound like a wise use of my time. Error begets error. It is the same consistent reason I don't attend Mormon services, Jewish services or Jehovah's Witness services. Would it be wise for me to attend Mormon, Jewish or Jehovah's Witness services? No, it would not. Just as my Community Church leaders trampled on the pearls of God's wisdom that is the truth of Preterism, the Mormon, Jewish and JW folks would behave in like manner. Also, it is not required of me, so why bother? It is the same reasoning we use for not sending our children to public school. Plus, how many times are we told to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing? God has given my wife and me two wonderful children to raise as God loving adults. In a nutshell, there's a church right there...... Not an excuse to forsake the assembly. Paul said that "love covers a multitude of sins." Therefore, you should meet and worship with the people of God overlooking their theological errors. All you should require is that they be straight on the gospel message and the identity of our one and only Savior Jesus Christ. Roo |
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Post by preteristaynrand on Dec 18, 2010 22:38:56 GMT -5
Belief in Jesus Christ's words are necessary for salvation. When the leader of any congregation does not believe in the words of Jesus Christ, I refuse to place myself under that leader's authority or teachings. It's that simple.
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