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Post by didymus on Dec 24, 2010 13:39:49 GMT -5
I have noticed that there are now a few trinitarians here. I guess you can say I was a trinitarian all my life. Not that I have ever studied it. It was what I was taught, and I simply accepted it. But, I was never comfortable with the trinitarian position. Among the many things I was taught, besides the trinitarian position, I was taught that Christianity is a monotheistic religion. When I was young, I had no clue what that meant. In time, I did learn what that meant. If I remember, that's when I started to get uncomfortable with the idea of the Trinity. I have often heard the phrase, "God the Father, God the Son, and God Holy Spirit." That sounds like three gods in a monotheistic religion. How can that be. Well, I studied it, within my limited resources. I went go to I John 5.7. For a time, I was satisfied with that. Satisfied, but still uncomfortable. In the process of learning the Bible, which I was strongly motivated to do, I acquired various translations, Strong's Concordance, Vine's Dictionary, Smith's Bible Dictionary, etc. Well, in the process of learning, I was no longer satisfied with I John 5.7. The King James was the only translation that stated, "these three are one." All other translation, that even included the verse used words like, "these three are in agreement as one." Eventually, it seemed to me that there was a contractual agreement between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Considering the idea of a New Covenant, that makes sense. The New Covenant is actual a four part contractual agreement. Part I, God, and His responsibilities. Part II, The Son of God and His responsibilities. Part III, The Holy Spirit and His responsibilities. Part IV, the Kingdom, us, and our resposibilities. All four parts are in agreement. God the Father is in all of us, through Christ. We are one. We are in one. If we are truly in Christ. So, you can see, there is no trinity as taught by the tradition of men. Now it's your turn.  |
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 27, 2010 16:41:24 GMT -5
Hi didymus
Actually, I used to throw out 1 John 5:7 then realized it doesn't contradict the scriptures. In fact if I remember correctly it is found in some of the older manuscripts.
Even so the Trinitarian postition is not proven by one scripture but many combined.
One of the most powerful scriptures supporting the Trinity is Matthew 28:19 where Jesus himself speaks of a "Trinity" by mentioning the three with the definite article and commanding baptism to be done in the "singular" name of the three.
So why did Jesus ascribe the definite article to each individually?
So you see that even our Lord mentions the three and that is a "Trinity".
Blessings WJ
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 27, 2010 18:04:18 GMT -5
Hi didymus Actually, I used to throw out 1 John 5:7 then realized it doesn't contradict the scriptures. In fact if I remember correctly it is found in some of the older manuscripts. Even so the Trinitarian postition is not proven by one scripture but many combined. One of the most powerful scriptures supporting the Trinity is Matthew 28:19 where Jesus himself speaks of a "Trinity" by mentioning the three with the definite article and commanding baptism to be done in the "singular" name of the three. So why did Jesus ascribe the definite article to each individually? So you see that even our Lord mentions the three and that is a "Trinity". Blessings WJ Amen WJ! Three distinct Persons but one Name. The best explanation the non-trinitarians can give is that Matthew 28:19 is corrupt which itself is an admission that it teaches the Trinity. Jack |
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Post by didymus on Dec 27, 2010 18:33:46 GMT -5
Hi didymus Actually, I used to throw out 1 John 5:7 then realized it doesn't contradict the scriptures. In fact if I remember correctly it is found in some of the older manuscripts. Even so the Trinitarian postition is not proven by one scripture but many combined. One of the most powerful scriptures supporting the Trinity is Matthew 28:19 where Jesus himself speaks of a "Trinity" by mentioning the three with the definite article and commanding baptism to be done in the "singular" name of the three. So why did Jesus ascribe the definite article to each individually? So you see that even our Lord mentions the three and that is a "Trinity". Blessings WJ Either way, there are not three gods in one. There is one God manifested in three. Otherwise, Christianity is not a monotheistic religion. |
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 28, 2010 18:53:10 GMT -5
Hi didymus Actually, I used to throw out 1 John 5:7 then realized it doesn't contradict the scriptures. In fact if I remember correctly it is found in some of the older manuscripts. Even so the Trinitarian postition is not proven by one scripture but many combined. One of the most powerful scriptures supporting the Trinity is Matthew 28:19 where Jesus himself speaks of a "Trinity" by mentioning the three with the definite article and commanding baptism to be done in the "singular" name of the three. So why did Jesus ascribe the definite article to each individually? So you see that even our Lord mentions the three and that is a "Trinity". Blessings WJ Either way, there are not three gods in one. There is one God manifested in three. Otherwise, Christianity is not a monotheistic religion. didymus OK. Are the three God or not? Trinitarianism doesn't believe there is "three Gods in One". WJ |
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Post by didymus on Dec 28, 2010 20:26:53 GMT -5
Either way, there are not three gods in one. There is one God manifested in three. Otherwise, Christianity is not a monotheistic religion. didymus OK. Are the three God or not? Trinitarianism doesn't believe there is "three Gods in One". WJ Yes they do, I use to be one. We often said, "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit." This indicates three separate gods. How do you explain the trinity in a monotheistic way? |
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Post by worshippingjesus on Dec 29, 2010 14:14:26 GMT -5
didymus OK. Are the three God or not? Trinitarianism doesn't believe there is "three Gods in One". WJ Yes they do, I use to be one. We often said, "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit." This indicates three separate gods. How do you explain the trinity in a monotheistic way? didymus Do you always answer a question with a question? OK, I can play that game. Is the Father God? Is the Son God? Is the Spirit God? How can you explain "Modalism" using scriptures? Maybe you can start with Matt 28:19.  Blessings WJ |
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Post by didymus on Dec 29, 2010 20:40:27 GMT -5
Yes they do, I use to be one. We often said, "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit." This indicates three separate gods. How do you explain the trinity in a monotheistic way? didymus Do you always answer a question with a question? OK, I can play that game. Is the Father God? Yes. Not in the sense that the Father is God. The son is "God with us," because the Son has the Father in Him. In the sense that God is a Spirit. I don't know what "modalism" is. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 30, 2010 11:58:39 GMT -5
Didymus wrote:
Didy,
I told Keith you were a Modalist because you have said that you believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate manifestations of God.
Roo
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Post by didymus on Dec 30, 2010 17:32:42 GMT -5
Didymus wrote: Didy, I told Keith you were a Modalist because you have said that you believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate manifestations of God. Roo I still don't know what modalism is. But, Roo, you left out one word. I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate manifestations of ONE God. This is how they can all be called God without being three separate gods. And it is true to monotheism. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 30, 2010 19:33:41 GMT -5
Didy wrote:
That's like saying that the executive, the legislative and the judicial branches of U.S. the government are three separate governments. They are not three separate governments. They are three separate branches but ONE government. In fact, the word "elohim" (God) means "ruler" or "governor."
The Father Son and Holy Spirit are three Persons but ONE God (Governor).
Roo
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Post by didymus on Dec 30, 2010 19:41:49 GMT -5
We've been through that personhood bit. I don't agree. Or can you prove that a spirit is a person? Convince me if you can.
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 30, 2010 20:00:22 GMT -5
We've been through that personhood bit. I don't agree. Or can you prove that a spirit is a person? Convince me if you can. The Spirit like Jesus does not act on His own initiative. So the Spirit has initiative like persons do. Roo |
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Post by didymus on Dec 31, 2010 14:27:43 GMT -5
We've been through that personhood bit. I don't agree. Or can you prove that a spirit is a person? Convince me if you can. The Spirit like Jesus does not act on His own initiative. So the Spirit has initiative like persons do. Roo Having characteristics like a person does not make one a person. Synthetic eggs have characteristics like eggs, but they are not eggs. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jan 1, 2011 10:57:38 GMT -5
The same way Moses & Jesus did:
Deu 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Mark 12:29 - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:..
Now why do we try and complicate this simple but greatest commandment?
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Post by Once4all on Jan 1, 2011 13:48:27 GMT -5
The same way Moses & Jesus did: Deu 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Mark 12:29 - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:.. Now why do we try and complicate this simple but greatest commandment? Precisely. And the Shema does not describe a trinity. There is only one true God and that is the Father, as Jesus and Paul both proclaim. I don't know who this "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" are. No one or no thing is ever called that in my Bible. God the Father, He's in my Bible; may He be praised forever. |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 1, 2011 14:09:12 GMT -5
God the Son, the very image of God the Father - may He be praised forever.
God the Holy Spirit - the Spirit who knows the mind of God May He be praised for His presence.
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Post by Once4all on Jan 1, 2011 17:05:44 GMT -5
God the Son, the very image of God the Father - may He be praised forever. God the Holy Spirit - the Spirit who knows the mind of God May He be praised for His presence. Actually, the text says Jesus is the image of God; it does not say of "God the Father." This is how fiction and human tradition develops. And image, of course, simply means likeness or representation; it does not mean the very thing. A photograph of your house is an image of your house, but the photograph is not the house. BTW, there was an inappropriate ad showing up at the top of the page. It was a double entendre, which initially looks like a woman's naked backside. The ad asks "What do you see?" When you examine it closer, you see that it also represents a muscular man flexing his pectoral muscles. There was nothing to identify what the ad was for, and I did not click it to find out. |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 1, 2011 17:53:07 GMT -5
BTW, there was an inappropriate ad showing up at the top of the page. It was a double entendre, which initially looks like a woman's naked backside. The ad asks "What do you see?" When you examine it closer, you see that it also represents a muscular man flexing his pectoral muscles. There was nothing to identify what the ad was for, and I did not click it to find out. I saw that as and reported it in from the admin. function. I hate the ads on this site for that reason. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Jan 1, 2011 23:11:19 GMT -5
Hi Bev,
My only complaint with the Trinity doctrine is that they make it a confession of faith, whereas the Shema is sufficient. We are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation - that He is the Son sent by the Father to be the Savior of the world and confess His name by calling upon the name of the Lord. Therefore we can call upon Jesus and know the Father will hear and answer that prayer. I do believe that Jesus is one with the Father and that worshipping Him as Lord and Christ takes nothing away from the Father, but gives Him glory. Which is all that we are required to do - nowhere are we told that we must define the Godhead as a trinity of persons, and so I try to refrain from that. The trinitarians make it a charge of heresy to not confess their doctrine as they state it. Whereas I prefer scripture and desire to not go beyond, nor deny what it states.
Therefore I am free to reject the confessional tradition with no fear of rejecting the glory due the Lord.
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Post by didymus on Jan 2, 2011 21:14:37 GMT -5
The only question I have is, what is Shema?
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Post by Allyn on Jan 2, 2011 21:39:19 GMT -5
The only question I have is, what is Shema? It is a prayer. |
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Post by didymus on Jan 2, 2011 22:20:43 GMT -5
Well then I shema for a better knowledge of administrative functions at my site.  |
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Post by Once4all on Jan 2, 2011 22:49:33 GMT -5
The only question I have is, what is Shema? "Shema" is the Hebrew word for "listen" or "hear," as in "Hear O Israel, ..." Because it is the beginning of "Hear O Israel, YHWH is our God, YHWH is one," the whole thing is referred to as the Shema Yisrael, or even shorter, simply as the Shema. The first paragraph of the Shema encompasses Deuteronomy 6:4-9 - "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. (Deuteronomy 6:4-9 NASB) |
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Post by didymus on Jan 3, 2011 12:39:32 GMT -5
Well, at my age, I can't say I learn something everyday. But I have learned something today. Thanks Bev.  |
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Post by worshippingjesus on Jan 3, 2011 17:40:02 GMT -5
didymus Do you always answer a question with a question? OK, I can play that game. Is the Father God? Yes. Great! We agree! Not in the sense that the Father is God. The son is "God with us," because the Son has the Father in Him. Huh? What does that even mean? In what sense then is Jesus not God? If all you say is he is the Son then that is saying no more than you are the Son of your father who is also human. In the sense that God is a Spirit. Again what does that mean? If God is a Spirit and there is only “One Spirit” then who is the Spirit spoken of in 2 Cor 3:17? How can you explain "Modalism" using scriptures? Maybe you can start with Matt 28:19. Blessings WJ I don't know what "modalism" is. Modalism is the belief that the Father Son and the Holy Spirit are all manifestations or modes of God. Click here!Blessings WJ |
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Post by didymus on Jan 4, 2011 4:27:47 GMT -5
I never said Jesus is not God. You should read what I wrote in this site in a thread, "Jesus is God." livebytr.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=jesusisgod&action=display&thread=645You should also take a look at, "The Oneness Principle," livebytr.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=churchtalk&action=display&thread=721The oneness principle comes in part from the following Scritpures. Deuteronomy 6.4, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" John 17.20-23, "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." Ephesians 4.4-6, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." The oneness principle is also be expressed in I Corinthians 12.12-27 The site you're one is an expression of the oneness principle. Many forums, topics, threads and posts, but only one site. What about the host company? Many sites, but one host company. And there are many, many web sites, but only one world wide web. I did "click here" as you suggested, and this one worked. This is not my belief. I do not believe God is a single "person," but rather a single Spirit. The most powerful spiritual being in the universe. This all-powerful spiritual being can be many places at one time, and still be only one spirit. He can be in Christ, and still be in heaven for Jesus, the Son, to address Him as Father. This all-powerful spiritual being can be on the thone of heaven, and still be on earth as the Holy Spirit. The concept of the trinity is man's attempt to understand this all-powerful spirit in human terms. That can't be done because of the limitiations it places on Almighty God. As the apostle Paul stated in I Corinthians 2.13-15, "These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one."Jesus said God is a Spirit. To understand God, you must do so through spiritual means, and not through carnal means. 
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Post by worshippingjesus on Jan 4, 2011 13:00:02 GMT -5
This is not my belief. I do not believe God is a single "person," but rather a single Spirit. Hi didymus Ok, so is God a person at all? If so how many persons does he have? Why would Jesus say there is "Three" all having the definite article and a singular name? There is no way you cannot say there is not "Three" based on Matt 28:19. Why would Jesus not say just baptise in "his name"? Blessings WJ |
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Post by didymus on Jan 4, 2011 21:42:55 GMT -5
This is not my belief. I do not believe God is a single "person," but rather a single Spirit. Hi didymus Ok, so is God a person at all? If so how many persons does he have? Why would Jesus say there is "Three" all having the definite article and a singular name? There is no way you cannot say there is not "Three" based on Matt 28:19. Why would Jesus not say just baptise in "his name"? Blessings WJ God is not a person. God is a spirit. Three what? Three gods? Three persons? Three positions? Three titles? Father is not a name, Son is not a name, Holy Spirit is not a name. They are titles. I think a person can have thee titles. If a person can have titles, so can a spirit. I have three titles. I'm a son, a grand-son, a brother. But I am one, not three distinct persons. |
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Post by worshippingjesus on Jan 5, 2011 16:26:05 GMT -5
Hi didymus Ok, so is God a person at all? If so how many persons does he have? Why would Jesus say there is "Three" all having the definite article and a singular name? There is no way you cannot say there is not "Three" based on Matt 28:19. Why would Jesus not say just baptise in "his name"? Blessings WJ God is not a person. God is a spirit. Three what? Three gods? Three persons? Three positions? Three titles? Father is not a name, Son is not a name, Holy Spirit is not a name. They are titles. I think a person can have thee titles. If a person can have titles, so can a spirit. I have three titles. I'm a son, a grand-son, a brother. But I am one, not three distinct persons. didymus Please forgive me for being confused, but earlier I had asked you the question... " Is Jesus God"? and you replied... Not in the sense that the Father is God. The son is "God with us," because the Son has the Father in Him. Yet now you are saying that the same "Spirit" who is God has the titles Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It seems to be a play on words to me because if you say that the "three titles" are God then why did you say "Jesus is God but not in the sense the Father is God"? Wouldn't he be God like the Father in every sense? If not then how could he be just another manifestation of God? If the Son is only a manifestation of the Father then why do you say that he is God because the Father was in him? Was the Father in himself? Why did Jesus use the definite article for the three, why didn't he just say "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Also it seems to me that Metaphors like Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father are completely useless if the Father and the Son are not distinct persons and especially if the Father and the Son are not persons but merely "A Spirit". Not to mention you must believe that the Word that was with God and was God is the Father with himself who also became flesh meaning he is the mediator of himself. As far as God is a Spirit, and not a person, well do you know a Father or a Son who are not persons. The titles Father and Son imply that God is a person if not then the titles are useless in showing us who God is. Man is flesh but man is also made in the image of God, and man is personal or a person. If God is not a person then in what sense is man made in his image?  Blessings WJ |
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