Christ's FIRST Coming was at the End of the Age

[kangaroojack]

The Futurists insist that Christ's second coming is at the end of the age. But the author to the Hebrews said that His first coming was at the end of the ages and that after that He would come again.

but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Note that He appeared "at the end of the ages" to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. His second coming inaugurated the eternal new covenant age which was to come. Paul spoke about the age which is "to come."

20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,

Note that Paul made reference to "this age" and also to that "which is to come." The expression "this age" was the old covenant age. Christ appeared at the end that age to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. We know they were very near to the end of that age because Paul said that God "has put all things under His feet" (past tense). This was to occur at "the end" (1 Corinthians 15).

It's clear friends! Somewhere inbetween the writing of 1 Corinthians and Ephesians the full end of the ages had come. The end of the age (or ages) is behind us. We are in the eternal new covenant age. This is to be inferred from Hebrews which says that Christ's first coming was at the end of the ages and from Paul who said that God "has put all things under Christ's feet."

Roo

[Allyn]

[cult buster]

Dec 6, 2010 10:55:57 GMT -5 Allyn said:

If you really believe roo,s crap you're both in danger.

[Morris]

Dec 8, 2010 10:23:37 GMT -5 @cult buster said:

If you really believe roo,s crap you're both in danger.

Out trolling, eh? How's the fishing going?

[Allyn]

His IP address is
207.19.143.1

He is from around Perry Hall, Maryland and he was using the Baltimore County Public Library

See more here

[kangaroojack]

Dec 8, 2010 13:32:20 GMT -5 Allyn said:

His IP address is
207.19.143.1

He is from around Perry Hall, Maryland and he was using the Baltimore County Public Library

See more here

Allyn,

I think I know who it is. He is from my area and he is a follower of Harold Camping's brand of futurism. He believes we are all apostates. The other day I told him about this site. Three years ago I gave him a copy of Last Days Madness by Gary DeMar and he wouldn't read it. His wife read it and rejected it and it's not even Full Preterist.

On another note. I pulled my back the other day and I cannot sit at the computer for long. I have had an ongoing headache as the result of it. I saw the chirporactor today and I may need one or two more treatments.

Roo

[knipwa]

Dec 8, 2010 10:23:37 GMT -5 @cult buster said:

Dec 6, 2010 10:55:57 GMT -5 Allyn said:

If you really believe roo,s crap you're both in danger.

In danger of what?

[kangaroojack]

In the op to this thread I made the observation that in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul spoke of the subjection of all things under Christ as a future event. But in Ephesians 1 he said that God had put all things under Christ (past tense). I concluded that the future expectation of 1 Corinthians 15 must have been fulfilled by the time Ephesians was written. My sources indicate that Ephesians was written about five years after to 1 Corinthians.

I have found the same to be true regarding the book of Hebrews. It also was written some time after 1 Corinthians. Hebrews also puts the subjection of all things under Christ in the past tense:

8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

Hebrews 2:8

This CLEARLY says that there is nothing that is not under Christ's subjection. The fact that we don't "see" this doesn't matter. It says that we do not yet see this. But our not seeing this does not make it untrue.

I think it is so cool that the one passage which says that the subjection of all things to Christ was in the future end was written before other passages which says it is in the past (their past).

Preterism makes it all fit well. The end of the ages is clearly behind us. I want to start things up again with PT sooo badly. On second thought naah.

Roo

[Morris]

Dec 10, 2010 11:31:19 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

In the op to this thread I made the observation that in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul spoke of the subjection of all things under Christ as a future event.

I see 1 Corinthians 15 speaking of the subjection as being current (i.e. in effect already). For instance, of death it says it 'is being [present tense] abolished/destroyed/rendered entirely useless". At the time of writing Paul said death is impotent.

Speaking of things being subjected, verses 27 and 28 appear to be saying the same basic things (for reference; 1 Corinthians 15:27,28). The former says that while all things "are put under Him" it should be noted that God, being the one who placed everything under Him, is not included in the "all" category. The latter verse essentially repeats the message, saying that the Son is subject to God "that God may be all in all".

The 'future' aspect comes from verse 28 "the Son Himself will also be subject to Him" where "be subject" is in the 'second Future' tense, 'Passive' voice. I have looked into this quite a bit and have discovered some interesting things about the Greek.

First, tense has some interesting meanings in Greek, and is not primarily concerned with 'time' in all cases. Here's an excerpt from the ntgreek.org website, "In English, and in most other languages, the tense of the verb mainly refers to the 'time' of the action of the verb (present, past, or future time). In Greek, however, although time does bear upon the meaning of tense, the primary consideration of the tense of the verb is not time, but rather the 'kind of action' that the verb portrays."

Another website explains this a little further, "Future (“I will help”, “I will be helping”), formed by prepending the particle “θα” (“will”, “shall”)... to the present subjunctive form (which is identical to the simple present) to form the future continuous (or: indefinite future: “I will be helping”: θα βοηθάω). [Source is www.foundalis.com/lan/grkgram.htm]. [Also, as a note, if the particle “θα” is "prepended" to the past form, it will form the simple future; e.g. "I will help".]

So what I am getting at here is that this "will also be subject to Him" is similar to "I will be helping" in the example above. Without letting this balloon into an enormous post, this "future continuous" is saying the same thing as the surrounding instances of "subjected".

Those which are in the "Aorist" tense indicate that it is a single, collective whole action, and that it can occur over a period of time. Those which are in the "Perfect Past" tense indicate that the action is already completed, yet the results continue on.

And this is what I believe this "Future" continuous is also indicating; it will remain this way, the Son subject to God, "that God may be all in all". This keeps the entire passage consistent, the subjecting being done (past tense) but also its results continuing on presently and will continue into the future.

[Edit] I forget to mention one more thing, again from the ntgreek.org website, "It is an important distinction to understand ... that the only place in which 'time' comes to bear directly upon the tense of a verb is when the verb is in the indicative mood. In all other moods and uses the aktionsart ["kind of action"] of the verb tense should be seen as primary."

Note that this "Future" tense of subjected is not in the indicative mood, therefore the "kind of action" should be seen as primary.]

[kangaroojack]

Dec 10, 2010 15:43:33 GMT -5 Morris said:

Dec 10, 2010 11:31:19 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

In the op to this thread I made the observation that in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul spoke of the subjection of all things under Christ as a future event.

I see 1 Corinthians 15 speaking of the subjection as being current (i.e. in effect already). For instance, of death it says it 'is being [present tense] abolished/destroyed/rendered entirely useless". At the time of writing Paul said death is impotent.

Speaking of things being subjected, verses 27 and 28 appear to be saying the same basic things (for reference; 1 Corinthians 15:27,28). The former says that while all things "are put under Him" it should be noted that God, being the one who placed everything under Him, is not included in the "all" category. The latter verse essentially repeats the message, saying that the Son is subject to God "that God may be all in all".

The 'future' aspect comes from verse 28 "the Son Himself will also be subject to Him" where "be subject" is in the 'second Future' tense, 'Passive' voice. I have looked into this quite a bit and have discovered some interesting things about the Greek.

First, tense has some interesting meanings in Greek, and is not primarily concerned with 'time' in all cases. Here's an excerpt from the ntgreek.org website, "In English, and in most other languages, the tense of the verb mainly refers to the 'time' of the action of the verb (present, past, or future time). In Greek, however, although time does bear upon the meaning of tense, the primary consideration of the tense of the verb is not time, but rather the 'kind of action' that the verb portrays."

Another website explains this a little further, "Future (“I will help”, “I will be helping”), formed by prepending the particle “θα” (“will”, “shall”)... to the present subjunctive form (which is identical to the simple present) to form the future continuous (or: indefinite future: “I will be helping”: θα βοηθάω). [Source is www.foundalis.com/lan/grkgram.htm]. [Also, as a note, if the particle “θα” is "prepended" to the past form, it will form the simple future; e.g. "I will help".]

So what I am getting at here is that this "will also be subject to Him" is similar to "I will be helping" in the example above. Without letting this balloon into an enormous post, this "future continuous" is saying the same thing as the surrounding instances of "subjected".

Those which are in the "Aorist" tense indicate that it is a single, collective whole action, and that it can occur over a period of time. Those which are in the "Perfect Past" tense indicate that the action is already completed, yet the results continue on.

And this is what I believe this "Future" continuous is also indicating; it will remain this way, the Son subject to God, "that God may be all in all". This keeps the entire passage consistent, the subjecting being done (past tense) but also its results continuing on presently and will continue into the future.

[Edit] I forget to mention one more thing, again from the ntgreek.org website, "It is an important distinction to understand ... that the only place in which 'time' comes to bear directly upon the tense of a verb is when the verb is in the indicative mood. In all other moods and uses the aktionsart ["kind of action"] of the verb tense should be seen as primary."

Note that this "Future" tense of subjected is not in the indicative mood, therefore the "kind of action" should be seen as primary.]

Morris,

As I have time I will look at all you have said in detail. What I have found thus far is that you are right. I just read the rendering of the verbs in our translations without checking the Greek text. I Corinthians 15 may be in agreement with Ephesians 1 and Hebrews 2 after all. This would mean that all things had been subjected to Christ even when 1 Corinthians was written.

Thanks dude!

Roo

[Morris]

Dec 13, 2010 10:03:37 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Morris,

As I have time I will look at all you have said in detail. What I have found thus far is that you are right. I just read the rendering of the verbs in our translations without checking the Greek text. I Corinthians 15 may be in agreement with Ephesians 1 and Hebrews 2 after all. This would mean that all things had been subjected to Christ even when 1 Corinthians was written.

Thanks dude!

Roo

Thanks so much for examining what I have written before judging it. I can't categorically say that I am right (since I am not a Greek scholar by any stretch of the imagine) but it appears correct to me based on what I have been able to research, in the context of what is said around it, and on the rest of scripture.

Oh, and I have relied on the English words many times, before examining the Greek, only to realize afterward that I was incorrect in my original conclusions. Happens to the best of us, Roo. The key for me is that I don't lock myself into an understanding and stifle my own learning.