What is Christian faith?

[kangaroojack]

Hi All,

I have found that many Futurists say that empirical evidence such as historical and archeaological records in addition to the scriptures are the basis of faith. I once thought this but I denounce it now. Paul said that Abraham believed God 'contrary to hope.' Abraham had no historical or archaeological records or any empirical basis to believe God. God revealed Himself to him and spoke a word to him and Abraham believed it.

12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

The Promise Granted Through Faith

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness Romans 4:12-22

Note that Paul made a deal of it that God had told Abraham, "I have made you a father of many nations." Paul said that God was "calling things into being that were not yet as though they were."

So there was the aged Abraham whose body was 'dead' because of age and he could not beget offspring. The womb of Sarah was aslo 'dead.' Yet Abraham believed that God had made him a father of many nations because God told him so. Abraham had no historical or archaeological evidence and he and Sarah were without the physical ability to make children.

Paul said that Abraham believed God 'contrary to hope.' Paul had said that Abraham is the father of all those who follow in the steps of the faith which Abraham had (vs. 12). Therefore, I submit that Christian faith is NOT empirically based. By this I mean that faith is not based on evidence that is subject to the investigation and verification of man. We must walk in the steps of the faith which Abraham had. He just believed God according to what was spoken.

I am thinking about this a lot lately because a Preterist brother on another discussion board said that he believes that the Revelation is fulfilled because the Biblical time texts indicate that it is fulfilled. He said that he would probably be accused of having a 'blind faith.' Sure enough, a Futurist lightly chastened him and went on that faith is based in historical evidence. Since there is no historical evidence that the Revelation has been fulfilled, then it has not been fulfilled and to believe it has been fulfilled amounts to 'blind faith."

Of course we Preterists believe that the Futuriste misunderstand the book of Revelation but I really don't want to get into that. I want to explore the biblical definition of faith. It is my feeling now that faith is not based in anything but a word from God which is to be believed.

Please engage on this topic. I think it will help us all to be better Preterist apologists.

Thanks,

Roo

[Once4all]

Excellent topic, Roo.

Romans 10:6-9 NASB
(6) But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
(7) or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
(8) But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
(9) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Verses 6 and 7 amount to denying the resurrection of Christ, which emcompasses his dying, rising, and ascending (or exaltation). To ask "who will ascend into heaven" is to deny that Christ has done so, thereby bringing him down from heaven. To ask "who will descend into the abyss" is to deny his death, thereby making the resurrection a sham. Think swoon theory.

We are not to deny Jesus, but to confess him. To believe everything that God has done through him.

Matthew 10:32-33 NASB
(32) "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
(33) "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

The second part of Romans 9:9 is equally important to the Christian faith: we are to believe that GOD raised Jesus from the dead. So many believe that he raised himself and justify it by saying that he IS God. But that's not what Paul wrote. (See also Romans 4:24, which is in the context of Abraham's faith.)

[kangaroojack]

Nov 6, 2010 13:09:46 GMT -5 Once4all said:

Excellent topic, Roo.

Romans 10:6-9 NASB
(6) But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
(7) or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
(8) But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
(9) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Verses 6 and 7 amount to denying the resurrection of Christ, which emcompasses his dying, rising, and ascending (or exaltation). To ask "who will ascend into heaven" is to deny that Christ has done so, thereby bringing him down from heaven. To ask "who will descend into the abyss" is to deny his death, thereby making the resurrection a sham. Think swoon theory.

We are not to deny Jesus, but to confess him. To believe everything that God has done through him.

Matthew 10:32-33 NASB
(32) "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
(33) "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

The second part of Romans 9:9 is equally important to the Christian faith: we are to believe that GOD raised Jesus from the dead. So many believe that he raised himself and justify it by saying that he IS God. But that's not what Paul wrote. (See also Romans 4:24, which is in the context of Abraham's faith.)

Bev,

Are you saying that faith is based in empirical evidence in addition to the scriptures or is based in the scriptures alone or both?

I am trying to determine the role that empirical evidence may have in faith if any. By 'empirical evidence' I mean evidence that is subject to the investigation and verification of man. Some would say that Abraham's faith was based in empirical evidence because God had revealed Himself to Abraham. But this was not subject to the investigation and verification of man. We take the scripture's word for it that God revealed Himself to Abraham. We cannot empirically verify it. We just believe it.

Paul's vision of Christ on the road to Damascus is another example. We accept the word of the scriptures that Christ revealed himself to Paul. And because we accept the word of the scriptures we accept that Paul was an authentic apostle and we believe his word. Paul's vision was not empirical because it could not be investigated and verified by man. In fact, the two men who were with him did not see the vision.

Bev:

The second part of Romans 9:9 is equally important to the Christian faith: we are to believe that GOD raised Jesus from the dead. So many believe that he raised himself and justify it by saying that he IS God. But that's not what Paul wrote.

I agree that Romans 9:9 does not teach that Christ raised Himself from the dead. But Jesus taught it in John 2:19-21 when He said that He would raise up His body in three days.

He taught it also in Mark 9:31 where He used the middle voice verb form of 'anastasis.' The middle voice means that the subject is acting upon Himself. So Mark 9:31 would literally be translated, "And the third day He [the Son of Man] will raise Himself up."

Roo

[Once4all]

Nov 6, 2010 17:44:07 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Nov 6, 2010 13:09:46 GMT -5 Once4all said:

Excellent topic, Roo.

Romans 10:6-9 NASB
(6) But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
(7) or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
(8) But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
(9) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Verses 6 and 7 amount to denying the resurrection of Christ, which emcompasses his dying, rising, and ascending (or exaltation). To ask "who will ascend into heaven" is to deny that Christ has done so, thereby bringing him down from heaven. To ask "who will descend into the abyss" is to deny his death, thereby making the resurrection a sham. Think swoon theory.

We are not to deny Jesus, but to confess him. To believe everything that God has done through him.

Matthew 10:32-33 NASB
(32) "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
(33) "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

The second part of Romans 9:9 is equally important to the Christian faith: we are to believe that GOD raised Jesus from the dead. So many believe that he raised himself and justify it by saying that he IS God. But that's not what Paul wrote. (See also Romans 4:24, which is in the context of Abraham's faith.)

Bev,

Are you saying that faith is based in empirical evidence in addition to the scriptures or is based in the scriptures alone or both?

I am trying to determine the role that empirical evidence may have in faith if any. By 'empirical evidence' I mean evidence that is subject to the investigation and verification of man. Some would say that Abraham's faith was based in empirical evidence because God had revealed Himself to Abraham. But this was not subject to the investigation and verification of man. We take the scripture's word for it that God revealed Himself to Abraham. We cannot empirically verify it. We just believe it.

Does this describe empirical evidence?

Romans 1:19-20 NASB
(19) because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
(20) For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Nov 6, 2010 17:44:07 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Paul's vision of Christ on the road to Damascus is another example. We accept the word of the scriptures that Christ revealed himself to Paul. And because we accept the word of the scriptures we accept that Paul was an authentic apostle and we believe his word. Paul's vision was not empirical because it could not be investigated and verified by man. In fact, the two men who were with him did not see the vision.

Bev:

The second part of Romans 9:9 is equally important to the Christian faith: we are to believe that GOD raised Jesus from the dead. So many believe that he raised himself and justify it by saying that he IS God. But that's not what Paul wrote.

I agree that Romans 9:9 does not teach that Christ raised Himself from the dead. But Jesus taught it in John 2:19-21 when He said that He would raise up His body in three days.

He taught it also in Mark 9:31 where He used the middle voice verb form of 'anastasis.' The middle voice means that the subject is acting upon Himself. So Mark 9:31 would literally be translated, "And the third day He [the Son of Man] will raise Himself up."

Roo

I can't find a single translation of Mark 9:31 that words it in the sense of Christ raising himself. Anastasis in John 11:23 is also in the middle voice but I doubt you would say that Lazarus raised himself from the dead:

John 11:23 NASB
(23) Jesus *said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

[kangaroojack]

Bev said:

I can't find a single translation of Mark 9:31 that words it in the sense of Christ raising himself. Anastasis in John 11:23 is also in the middle voice but I doubt you would say that Lazarus raised himself from the dead:

John 11:23 NASB
(23) Jesus *said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

Bev,

First, the middle voice is often translated as a simple active voice verb. This explains why you have not found a translation that renders it literally, "raise Himself up" in Mark 9:31.

Second, you did not reply to Jesus' statement in John 2:19-21 inwhich He said that He would raise up His body. I now add another statement from John 10:18 inwhich He said that He had the power to lay down His life and to take it again.

Third, I have been searching online so I can show you why the middle voice in Mark 9:31 says that Jesus raised Himself from the dead. I have not yet found anything online that deals with to verify what I have said. I have only my textbooks. I will keep searching for online verification. For now let the information I provide below suffice to show that there are different functions of the middle voice.

The middle voice in Mark 9:31 functions as the Reflexive or the Indirect Reflexive which means that Jesus acted upon Himself. He raised Himself from among the dead. The middle in reference to Lazarus functions as the deponent middle. There is no active form regarding the deponent middle.

Then there is the causative middle which indicates that the subject has something done to Himself. The subject may be the source even though someone else is acting upon Him. So your example from the middle voice in John 11:23 regarding Lazarus is inconclusive regarding its use in Mark 9:31 because there are various functions of the middle voice verb. Note that all the functions except the deponent emphasize some action by the subject.

Defining the function of the middle voice is not an easy task because it encompasses a large and amorphous group of nuances. But in general, in the middle voice the subject performs or experiences the action expressed by the verb in such a way that emphasizes the subject's participation. It may be said that the subject acts with a vested interest. "The middle calls special attention to the subject ... the subject is acting in relation to himself somehow" (Roberson, 804).

The difference between the active and middle voice is one of emphasis. The active emphasizes the action of the verb; the middle emphasizes the actor [subject] of the verb. For many middle voices (especially the indirect middle), putting the subject in italics would communicate this emphasis.

1. Direct (Reflexive, Direct Reflexive) Middle

With the direct middle, the subject acts on himself or herself. the genius of the middle can most clearly be seen by this use. But because of its very subtlety, nonnative speakers tended to replace this with more familiar forms. In th eNT, the direct middle is quite rare, used almost exclusively with certain verbs whose leical nuance included a reflexive notion (such as putting on clothes), or in a set idiom that had become fixed in the language.

Matt 27:5 He hanged himself

2. Indirect (Indirect Reflexive, Benefactive, Intensive, Dynamic) Middle

The subject acts for (or sometimes by) himself or herself, or in his or her own interest. This is a common use of the middle in the NT; apart from the deponent middle, it is the most common. This usage is closest to the general definition of the middle suggested by many grammarians.

Acts 5:2 And he kept back [some] of the price [for himself]

Matt 27:24 Pilate washed his hands saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood."

3. Causative Middle


The subject has something done for or to himself or herself. As well, the subject may be the source behind an action done in his/her behalf. This usage, though rare, involves some exegetically important texts.

Luke 11:38 When the Pharisee saw this, he was amazed because [Jesus] did not first have himself washed before the meal.

4. Permissive Middle

The subject allows something to be done for or to himself or herself. This usage, though rare, involves some exegetically important texts.

Luke 2:4-5 Joseph went up from Galilee ... (5) to be enrolled with Mary.

Acts 22:16 Rise, have yourself baptized and allow your sins to be washed away.

5. Deponent Middle

A deponent middle verb is one that has no active form for a particular principal part in Hellenistic Greek, and one whose force in that principal part is evidently active. See Wallace for his list of true deponents.

www.bcbsr.com/greek/gvoice.html

Question: Why did you introduce the subject of our Lord's divinity when this topic is "What is Christian Faith?"


Roo

[Once4all]

Nov 9, 2010 14:47:46 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Question: Why did you introduce the subject of our Lord's divinity when this topic is "What is Christian Faith?"

Roo

Because Romans 10:9 says that we are to believe in our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Since none of us witnessed that event, it is a matter of faith.

[didymus]

I for one do not believe in blind faith. Our faith is based on the Word of God, which speaks of creation, and everything that God has revealed about Himself. We also have all that Jesus accomplished. So, our faith is based on these things and is not in a vacuum.

[kangaroojack]

Nov 9, 2010 22:16:25 GMT -5 Once4all said:

Nov 9, 2010 14:47:46 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Question: Why did you introduce the subject of our Lord's divinity when this topic is "What is Christian Faith?"

Roo

Because Romans 10:9 says that we are to believe in our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Since none of us witnessed that event, it is a matter of faith.

Bev,

Thanks for the clarification. However, the part I bolded from your original statement appeared to me to be introducing another subject.

The second part of Romans 9:9 is equally important to the Christian faith: we are to believe that GOD raised Jesus from the dead. So many believe that he raised himself and justify it by saying that he IS God. But that's not what Paul wrote. (See also Romans 4:24, which is in the context of Abraham's faith.)

I accept your explanation with clarification and I take your word for it.

Roo

[kangaroojack]

Nov 9, 2010 22:34:58 GMT -5 @didymus said:

I for one do not believe in blind faith. Our faith is based on the Word of God, which speaks of creation, and everything that God has revealed about Himself. We also have all that Jesus accomplished. So, our faith is based on these things and is not in a vacuum.

Who is talkng about blind faith? Believing the word of God is not blind faith. But Abraham believed the word of God when he had no empirical basis to believe God. The person I challenged at Bible Wheel was saying that our faith is based in empirical evidence. I do not accept this.

Roo

[MoGrace2U]

oops