Post by kangaroojack on Oct 25, 2010 12:57:18 GMT -5
My Preterist Friends,
This is my last post here at CARM. But before I go I want to leave something with you. PaulT managed to get out of the debate. So I leave with you a sample of what I was going to include in my 1500 word follow up segment.
I. Charles Hodge denied the 'selfsame' body doctrine:
1. In His commentary on 1 Corinthians 15 Hodge admitted that the new body may come from the soul:
2. Hodge tried to have it both ways on sameness
Note: Hodge tried to convince us that the Bible 'clearly teaches' sameness but then says, "not in substance, form or appearance." Yes I am scratching my head too.
3. From that point on Hodge consistently denies sameness
4. Hodge said that the word 'spiritual' in reference to the resurrection body literally means 'immaterial matter'
5. Hodge said that Christ as a 'quickening spirit...from heaven' (vs. 45) means that He has a different body now
6. On Paul's statement that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God Hodge said
II. Albert Barnes denied the 'selfsame' body doctrine
1. On Paul's seed analogy Barnes said that there is no prospect that the 'main body' will spring up
2. Barnes like Hodge tried to have it both ways on sameness
NOTE: Barnes said that the resurrection body is not the same in the sense that it is the same particles that compose it. So what particles will God use? Then he says that it is the same in the sense that it sprung up from 'that'. So what does 'that' refer to from which the resurrection body comes if not the same particles? Again, scratching my head.
3. Barnes admits that our glorified bodies will be different from each other in heaven. Commenting on Paul's illustration of the various glories of the heavenly bodies Barnes said
Note: We will not all look the same in heaven as we do here on earth. Therefore, we will not have the 'selfsame' bodies in heaven as we have now.
4. Barnes like Hodge said that Christ has a different body now. Since we do not know what his glorified body is like, then we cannot know what our glorified bodies will be like. On Philippians 3:21 Barnes said
RECAPITULATION:
1. Hodge admitted that the new body may come from the soul. THIS IS WHAT I HAVE SAID ALL ALONG!
2. Hodge tried to have it both ways on sameness but ended up denying sameness where it matters. He said that the new body is not the same in "substance, form or appearance." Therefore, the resurrection body is NOT the 'selfsame' body we have now.
3. Hodge said that the word 'spiritual'' in reference to the resurrection body literally means 'immaterial matter'. Therefore, the new body is not a material body. DUH!
4. Hodge said that the body AS IT IS NOW CONSTITUTED, THAT IS, FLESH AND BLOOD, cannot inherit the kingdomm of heaven.
5. Hodge asserted that the body Jesus has now is not the same body inwhich He appeared in after His resurrection. He said that Jesus had not assumed His 'pneumatic state' until He ascended into heaven.
6. Barnes said that the main body of the seed decays and that there is 'NO PROSPECT' that it will spring up. He said that it is the KERNEL ITSELF which springs up. According to Hodge this may be the soul. This is what I have been saying.
7. Barnes said that each of us will have a different body in heaven like the stars differ in glory. Therefore, our glorified bodies cannot be the same bodies we have now because we are all the same now.
8. Both Barnes and Hodge said that we cannot look at our present bodies and determine from them what kind of glorified body we will have. This is because Christ has a different body now and we don't know anything about it except that it is immortal and eternal. Christ appeared to Paul making him blind and making him an eyewitness of the resurrection of Christ. Yet we know that the body of Jesus before His ascension did not make people blind and Paul did not see a body of flesh.
Good bye and love in Christ,
Roo
Reformed Preterist
This is my last post here at CARM. But before I go I want to leave something with you. PaulT managed to get out of the debate. So I leave with you a sample of what I was going to include in my 1500 word follow up segment.
I. Charles Hodge denied the 'selfsame' body doctrine:
1. In His commentary on 1 Corinthians 15 Hodge admitted that the new body may come from the soul:
Who knows where the principle of life in the body is? It may be in the soul, which when the time comes may unfold itself into a new body, gathering or regathering its materials according to its own law.
1 & 2 Corinthians, Banner of Truth, page 344 1st publishing 1857 reprinted 1983
1 & 2 Corinthians, Banner of Truth, page 344 1st publishing 1857 reprinted 1983
2. Hodge tried to have it both ways on sameness
The Bible clearly teaches that our bodies hereafter are to be the same as those we now have; but it nowhere teaches us where that sameness consists.....Not in substance, not in form or appearance.
page 344
page 344
Note: Hodge tried to convince us that the Bible 'clearly teaches' sameness but then says, "not in substance, form or appearance." Yes I am scratching my head too.
3. From that point on Hodge consistently denies sameness
The point of the [seed] illustration is, that what comes up is very DIFFERENT from that which is deposited in the ground....
What is deposited in the earth is very DIFFERENT from that which springs from it....
You cannot infer from looking at a seed what the plant is to be; it is very foolish, therefore, to attempt to determine from our present bodies what is to be the nature of our bodies hereafter....
pages 344-345
What is deposited in the earth is very DIFFERENT from that which springs from it....
You cannot infer from looking at a seed what the plant is to be; it is very foolish, therefore, to attempt to determine from our present bodies what is to be the nature of our bodies hereafter....
pages 344-345
4. Hodge said that the word 'spiritual' in reference to the resurrection body literally means 'immaterial matter'
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
This is a vindication of the apparently contradictory expression, spiritual body, which, according to the letter, is tantamount to immaterial matter...
page 348
This is a vindication of the apparently contradictory expression, spiritual body, which, according to the letter, is tantamount to immaterial matter...
page 348
5. Hodge said that Christ as a 'quickening spirit...from heaven' (vs. 45) means that He has a different body now
...it is enough to say, that no change took place at his resurrection in the nature of Christ's body. It was necessary in order to its satisfactory identification that it should remain as it was before. He therefore not only called upon his disciples to handle his risen body to satisfy themselves of its identity by probing the wounds in his hands and feet, but he also repeatedlly ate before them. He did not assume his PERMANENT pneumatic state until his ascension.
page 351
page 351
6. On Paul's statement that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God Hodge said
Flesh and blood means our bodies as now constituted, not sinful human nature. The phrase never has this latter sense....
He is speaking of the body and of its state after the resurrection. It is of the body as now constituted that he says, it cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven....
page 353
He is speaking of the body and of its state after the resurrection. It is of the body as now constituted that he says, it cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven....
page 353
II. Albert Barnes denied the 'selfsame' body doctrine
1. On Paul's seed analogy Barnes said that there is no prospect that the 'main body' will spring up
The main body of the kernel decays. In itself there is no prospect that it will spring up....
The main body of the grain decays that it may become food and nourishment to the tender germ.
Barnes' Notes on 1 Corinthians, Baker Book House, page 311, 17th Printing, May 1980
The main body of the grain decays that it may become food and nourishment to the tender germ.
Barnes' Notes on 1 Corinthians, Baker Book House, page 311, 17th Printing, May 1980
2. Barnes like Hodge tried to have it both ways on sameness
It is implied here that the body which will be raised will not be the same in the sense of the of the same particles of matter shall compose it, but the same only in the sense that it will have sprung up from that.
page 311
page 311
NOTE: Barnes said that the resurrection body is not the same in the sense that it is the same particles that compose it. So what particles will God use? Then he says that it is the same in the sense that it sprung up from 'that'. So what does 'that' refer to from which the resurrection body comes if not the same particles? Again, scratching my head.
3. Barnes admits that our glorified bodies will be different from each other in heaven. Commenting on Paul's illustration of the various glories of the heavenly bodies Barnes said
The idea here is, therefore, not only that the bodies of the saints in heaven shall differ from those on earth, but that they shall differ among themseves, in a sense somewhat like the difference of the splendour of the sun, the moon and the different stars....
page 313
page 313
Note: We will not all look the same in heaven as we do here on earth. Therefore, we will not have the 'selfsame' bodies in heaven as we have now.
4. Barnes like Hodge said that Christ has a different body now. Since we do not know what his glorified body is like, then we cannot know what our glorified bodies will be like. On Philippians 3:21 Barnes said
That it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body. Gr., "the body of his glory;" that is, the body which he has in his glorified state.
What change the body of the Redeemer underwent when he ascended into heaven, we are not informed,---nor do we know what is the nature, size, appearance, or form of the body which he now has.
Barnes' Notes on Philippians, Baker Book House, page 207, Fifteenth Printing, February 1979
What change the body of the Redeemer underwent when he ascended into heaven, we are not informed,---nor do we know what is the nature, size, appearance, or form of the body which he now has.
Barnes' Notes on Philippians, Baker Book House, page 207, Fifteenth Printing, February 1979
RECAPITULATION:
1. Hodge admitted that the new body may come from the soul. THIS IS WHAT I HAVE SAID ALL ALONG!
2. Hodge tried to have it both ways on sameness but ended up denying sameness where it matters. He said that the new body is not the same in "substance, form or appearance." Therefore, the resurrection body is NOT the 'selfsame' body we have now.
3. Hodge said that the word 'spiritual'' in reference to the resurrection body literally means 'immaterial matter'. Therefore, the new body is not a material body. DUH!
4. Hodge said that the body AS IT IS NOW CONSTITUTED, THAT IS, FLESH AND BLOOD, cannot inherit the kingdomm of heaven.
5. Hodge asserted that the body Jesus has now is not the same body inwhich He appeared in after His resurrection. He said that Jesus had not assumed His 'pneumatic state' until He ascended into heaven.
6. Barnes said that the main body of the seed decays and that there is 'NO PROSPECT' that it will spring up. He said that it is the KERNEL ITSELF which springs up. According to Hodge this may be the soul. This is what I have been saying.
7. Barnes said that each of us will have a different body in heaven like the stars differ in glory. Therefore, our glorified bodies cannot be the same bodies we have now because we are all the same now.
8. Both Barnes and Hodge said that we cannot look at our present bodies and determine from them what kind of glorified body we will have. This is because Christ has a different body now and we don't know anything about it except that it is immortal and eternal. Christ appeared to Paul making him blind and making him an eyewitness of the resurrection of Christ. Yet we know that the body of Jesus before His ascension did not make people blind and Paul did not see a body of flesh.
Good bye and love in Christ,
Roo
Reformed Preterist
