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Post by didymus on Oct 7, 2010 7:16:18 GMT -5
Where is the Scripture that states that some are predestined for salvation, and others predestined for damnation? In all my years of studying, I have never seen this. And, I have recently been asking this question of other Calvinists elsewhere, and so far they have not been able to answer it. Some gave a list of ten or so Scriptures, and twisted them to show what they want them to show. Please don't do that. I am looking for a specific Scripture that states that some are predestined to salvation while others are predestined for damnation.  |
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Post by kangaroojack on Oct 8, 2010 10:38:39 GMT -5
My Friends, Our brother Didy is engaging in the logical fallacy called dicto simpliciter or hasty generalization. Dicto simpliciter occurs when one draws a sweeping generalization from a few samples. Example: When my daughter first went to college in Indiana she excitedly told me that all the squirrels in Indiana are black. She had never seen a black squirrel in Maryland where she was raised. I asked her where she had seen the black squirrels and she said that they were scurrying outside the dormatory on campus. I told her that Indiana is a fairly big state and that there could be gray squirrels and even brown squirrels in some parts. My daughter had commited the fallacy of dicto simpliciter. So our brother Didy has committed the same fallacy. He has made a hasty generalization about Calvinists based on the samples he has gathered through his personal discussions. Fact is, the doctrine that God predestines some men to damnation is not Calvinism at all. Calvinist R.C. Sproul says: What Sproul says I have said here: Calvinism does not teach double predestination or 'equal ultimacy' as Sproul calls it. Calvinism teaches election and reprobation. God looked down from heaven and found that all have sinned. Those whom God had predestined to salvation He intervenes in their lives to bring them to salvation. The rest He just leaves to themselves in their sin. Didy, When you are ready to discuss particular scriptures about predestination let me know. I am not interested if you are going to generalize.  Roo |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 8, 2010 11:25:11 GMT -5
Making a sweeping generalization about whatever it is Calvin taught is nothing compared to how he did the same to develop his teachings on how election was worked in scripture.
Certainly God does look down upon men in the earth who only sin continually, but does He consider them depraved beyond any ability to turn to Him when they hear His word? Hardly, else He would not speak to men thru prophets expecting repentance as a result of hearing that word sent to them.
When we see election at work in scripture to bring into being the nation of Israel, we also see comparisons about why He chooses some and not others. And Jacob and Esau are a classic example. Only a little glimmer of faith is needed for the Lord to reach the heart of one man. And because of the prophetic word which was given to reveal that Jacob had been chosen beforehand, we ought also not miss how it was the Lord brought it about. For it was this promise that Rebecca kept in her heart, but which Isaac neglected.
And this faith Jacob and Rebecca showed by believing the promise and desiring it when it became clear Esau was about to be rejected for marrying foreign wives. Even though Jacob worked a bit deceitfully in obtaining the birthright from Esau, such deceit toward the wicked is permitted.
We see another example given in Ezekiel 7+ when the false prophets who were opposing his message were sent a word to deceive those who came to them.
This pattern is well established in the stories of Israel about how God then keeps a remnant for Himself based on even a minimal faith that desires to obey the word of God. In Ezekiel 9 we also see how such election is worked to mark the men who grieved over the abominations that were being done by the wicked rulers in Jerusalem. And that was the test given to the angels on who to select and who to slay.
And it was the same test given to Adam when the devil brought in another word to oppose what God had told him. Whose word will men hear is the choice given to them that works upon their will.
The hardened sinner whose sin has blinded him thru continual practice of it, certainly may become so depraved that he cannot hear the word of righteousness when it is given to him. But is that the condition of every man at birth? If it were, then why was Israel instructed to teach their children the ways of the Lord in Deut 6 at every opportunity?
Because just like Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar , doing right can stay our peace and keep sin at bay - so we do not become so depraved we cannot hear!
But when speaking prophetically, even sin can be used by the Lord to accomplish His purposes, because He alone knows the heart of a man, and when his sin has reached its fullness. While the others He extends mercy towards because grace works thru faith. And so the word goes out to accomplish this work in the hearts of men who have not forsaken the Lord altogether, that the Lord might continue to have a remnant thru whom His good purposes are accomplished.
Not because of some goodness or righteousness on their part, but because they seek that goodness and righteousness from God by their willingness to hear and obey His word to them.
From what I have heard from Calvin & followers, he did not really know the grace of God himself, else he would have been merciful when he was tested with men who opposed him. It is after all such a test that reveals whether one has true saving faith or not. The word of God either evokes the right response from a man or reveals the wickedness that lies within those who will not hear it. Calvin seemed only to have the desire that it would be his own doctrines that men might hear and obey. It is a common mistake many men continue to make.
Zacchaeus and Cornelius are two others whose hearts were revealed to us to show why the Lord chose them too. Zacchaeus desired to see the Lord, and Cornelius had a heart that desired to give alms to Judea to help the people he ruled over. And of course we also have the apostle Paul's own conversion when the Lord appeared to speak to him. The evil that Paul had been working against the saints was because the rulers who sent him had deceived him he was working the will of God according to law. When he finally heard the truth from the Lord Himself, he turned quickly!
We needn't fear leaving Calvin for the truth either...
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Post by kangaroojack on Oct 8, 2010 13:02:59 GMT -5
Robin said:
Hi Robin,
Your statement I copied above is really the crux of the whole matter. The problem with your statement is two-fold:
1. Faith is entirely the gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9)
2. Faith cannot originate with us. If it originated with us there would be as many ways to be justified as there are human beings. But there can be only ONE way to be made right with God and that is by the faith that comes from Christ (Galatians 2:15-16).
In other words, the faith God requires is objective in nature, that is, it does not comes out of ourselves. If faith came out of me and out of you, then there would be two ways to become right with God. But if faith comes from Christ, then we are all justified in the same manner and there is only one way to become right with God.
Paul said that faith is not out of ourselves (Eph. 2:8-9). And he said that faith comes from Christ (Gal. 2:15-16). Thus there is only one way to become right with God.
I just thought of a third problem with your statement. If I contribute a 'little glimmer' of faith, then I would get a 'little glimmer' of the glory. Something is wrong with that picture.
Roo
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Post by Morris on Oct 8, 2010 14:20:31 GMT -5
1. Faith is entirely the gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9) Correction; Grace is the gift of of God. Ephesians 2:4-9 " But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." The grace of God, even His mercy toward us " because of His great love with which He loved us" (this is an activated love through Christ), is the gift of God. It is through faith (our trust, belief, and confidence) in Christ and His activated love on the cross. Faith is conduit that God made His grace available. That means we can't do or be anything to grant us access to this grace outside of saying 'God has provided'. Galatians 2:15-16 " We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." I have absolutely no idea how you came to those conclusions. Paul said that grace is not of ourselves. Grace has been given and is God's, while faith is ours. Example; Romans 12:6, " Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith". 1 Thessalonians 1:8 " For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place. Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything." Notice, " Your faith" (the person's), " toward God" (not from Him), " has gone out" (not come in). Again in Hebrews 6:1, " of faith toward God". Scripture is overwhelmingly saying faith is our responsibility, while the grace that saves is God's. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 8, 2010 14:52:44 GMT -5
Thank you Morris.
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Post by kangaroojack on Oct 8, 2010 15:44:00 GMT -5
1. Faith is entirely the gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9) Correction; Grace is the gift of of God. Ephesians 2:4-9 " But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." The grace of God, even His mercy toward us " because of His great love with which He loved us" (this is an activated love through Christ), is the gift of God. It is through faith (our trust, belief, and confidence) in Christ and His activated love on the cross. Faith is conduit that God made His grace available. That means we can't do or be anything to grant us access to this grace outside of saying 'God has provided'. Galatians 2:15-16 " We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." I have absolutely no idea how you came to those conclusions. Paul said that grace is not of ourselves. Grace has been given and is God's, while faith is ours. Example; Romans 12:6, " Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith". 1 Thessalonians 1:8 " For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place. Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything." Notice, " Your faith" (the person's), " toward God" (not from Him), " has gone out" (not come in). Again in Hebrews 6:1, " of faith toward God". Scripture is overwhelmingly saying faith is our responsibility, while the grace that saves is God's. Morris, You got the whole thing wrong man! In Ephesians 2:8-9 the Greek pronoun 'this' takes the nearest noun as its antecedent. It is followed by the Greek preposition 'ek' which means 'out of.' So the verse literally translated reads thus, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; this is not out of yourselves, it [faith] is the gift of God, lest any man should boast."Again, the Greek 'this' is demonstrative which means that it takes the nearest noun as its antecedent. The nearest noun is FAITH. It [faith] is not out of yourselves. Galatians 2:16 literally reads, "16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." KJVNote that it says that we are justified by the faith " OF Christ." The Greek does not say, "faith in Christ." The Genetive "faith OF Christ" means "the faith that comes from Christ. God does not want your faith and my faith and Robin's faith. That would be three ways of salvation. He wants only one kind of faith and that is the faith that comes from Christ. Period! You were made right with God by grace alone! Period! Morris: You are confusing old covenant faith with new covenant faith. Paul said that the righteousness of God was being revealed from heaven " out of faith into faith" Romans 1:17. Paul was moving them 'out of' old covenant faith and 'into' new covenant faith. New covenant faith is objective. It is not 'out of' ourselves. If it was, then there would be as many ways of becoming right with God as there are human beings. But there is only one way to become right with God and that is by the faith which comes from Christ. Try to recognize that there was a transition from old covenant faith to new covenant faith. Your conclusion from 1 Thessalonians 1:8 about ' your faith' is erroneous. For once God gives you faith it is yours. Roo |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 8, 2010 21:31:48 GMT -5
I love doctrines that are built on pronouns. By grace, through faith, ye are saved. The subject is SALVATION - that is the gift! A gift that comes to us by the grace of God thru faith which channels or receives that grace. Also is the faith of Christ not also describing what our faith is upon? It is the power of Christ that saves us by delivering the grace of God to us which faith must receive to be accepted in the beloved. I could just go on and on...
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Post by kangaroojack on Oct 9, 2010 10:08:49 GMT -5
I love doctrines that are built on pronouns. By grace, through faith, ye are saved. The subject is SALVATION - that is the gift! A gift that comes to us by the grace of God thru faith which channels or receives that grace. Also is the faith of Christ not also describing what our faith is upon? It is the power of Christ that saves us by delivering the grace of God to us which faith must receive to be accepted in the beloved. I could just go on and on... Yeah! It's on account of grace through faith. Then it says that "this" [faith] is not out of yourselves. And "it" [faith] is the gift of God. Pronouns do not take 'subjects' as their antecedents. Pronouns take nouns and other pronouns as their antecedents. Your insinuation that my doctrine is based merely on pronouns is mistaken. They believed as the consequence of their first having been appointed to eternal life. Why is it that non-Calvinists object to God's right to save whom He wants to save? If God finds a 'glimmer' of faith in people, then why is it necessary for Him to open their hearts (Acts 16:14)? Roo |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 9, 2010 21:27:32 GMT -5
Don't go just by the KJV rendering of ethnos as Gentiles, as if they were somehow not those who had previously been dispersed to the nations - from Israel. This was the promised gathering of those children whom Israel had lost. The ones Jesus came to seek and to save. We ought not to think 'heathen barbarians' were ever part of the foreordained elect of God. This is Calvin's mistake if you ask me, that he thought such election must predetermine every one since who He accepts. It is the lost sons of Israel that this remnant of Jacob was promised to be gathered in the last days before the judgment fell. Calvin is guilty of trying to make absolutist statements that can be applied to everyone, while neglecting the ones who were chosen to receive the promise in Israel's last days before her covenant ended.
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Post by kangaroojack on Oct 10, 2010 10:06:33 GMT -5
Don't go just by the KJV rendering of ethnos as Gentiles, as if they were somehow not those who had previously been dispersed to the nations - from Israel. This was the promised gathering of those children whom Israel had lost. The ones Jesus came to seek and to save. We ought not to think 'heathen barbarians' were ever part of the foreordained elect of God. This is Calvin's mistake if you ask me, that he thought such election must predetermine every one since who He accepts. It is the lost sons of Israel that this remnant of Jacob was promised to be gathered in the last days before the judgment fell. Calvin is guilty of trying to make absolutist statements that can be applied to everyone, while neglecting the ones who were chosen to receive the promise in Israel's last days before her covenant ended. Robin, I believe you treat the word 'ethnos' in Acts 13:48 correctly. But in Romans 3 Paul said that God looked down from heaven upon the sons of men and found that there was none good and that there was none that did seek after God. He included those who did not have the law. Paul was proving to the Jew that he was no better than the non-Jew. Therefore, all men both Jews and non-Jews alike are in the same depraved condition. No man seeks after God on his own initiative. Any 'glimmer' of faith that might exist in the heart of a man was put there by God. Men believe because God's seed is in them. Your doctrine of salvation is backwards. It starts out with grace alone and then moves to grace plus works. For if faith comes from within us, then it is indeed a work. But it is the other way around. It was previously grace plus works and Paul moved them to grace alone. For faith when correctly defined according to new covenant terminology excludes itself. Thus the one who has new covenant faith says, "I did nothing. I am saved by grace alone."Roo |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 10, 2010 10:41:29 GMT -5
Rom 3:10-18 is a composite of quotes from Psalms and Isaiah about the wicked fool. It is not talking about all men who are so depraved beyond any ability to hear and obey God.
Rom 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Ps 14:1-3; 53:1-3
Rom 3:11 - There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 - They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 - Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Ps 5:9; 140:3
Rom 3:14 - Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Ps 10:7
Rom 3:15 - Their feet are swift to shed blood: Isa 59:7-8
Rom 3:16 - Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 - And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 - There is no fear of God before their eyes. Ps 36:1
These references are just those found in my bible, there are many others that are pointing to the wicked in particular.
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Post by kangaroojack on Oct 10, 2010 13:34:14 GMT -5
Rom 3:10-18 is a composite of quotes from Psalms and Isaiah about the wicked fool. It is not talking about all men who are so depraved beyond any ability to hear and obey God. Rom 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Ps 14:1-3; 53:1-3 Rom 3:11 - There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 3:12 - They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Rom 3:13 - Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Ps 5:9; 140:3 Rom 3:14 - Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Ps 10:7 Rom 3:15 - Their feet are swift to shed blood: Isa 59:7-8 Rom 3:16 - Destruction and misery are in their ways: Rom 3:17 - And the way of peace have they not known: Rom 3:18 - There is no fear of God before their eyes. Ps 36:1 These references are just those found in my bible, there are many others that are pointing to the wicked in particular. You overlooked verse 9: You began with verse 10 when you should have begun with verse 9. In verse 9 Paul indicates how he is applying those old testament scriptures. Note that Paul was employing those scriptures to prove to the Jew that he is no better than the Greek saying, "For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are ALL under sin." Then he cites a list of scriptures which prove that the Jew and Greek are both under sin. Note also that Paul said that "We have previously charged both Jew and Greek that they are all under sin." The word 'previously' indicates that he had said it before. So follow his reasoning from chapters 1 thru 3. Therefore, God looked down from heaven upon the sons of men (Jews and Greeks) and found that there is NONE that seeks after God.I hate to say this but you are doing the same kind of thing that elf does. Last week in a post to me she argued for the future restoration of Israel beginning with Romans 11:11. I pointed out to her that she should have begun with verse 5 which indicates that God was saving His remnant from Israel at the present time (Paul's present). So if you had begun with verse 9 and even before verse 9 you would have seen that Paul had applied those old testament scriptures to Jews and Greeks alike. There is NONE that seeks after God.I hope I have not incurred your wrath for my likening your hermeneutic to elf's.  Roo |
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Post by Once4all on Oct 10, 2010 19:29:15 GMT -5
What I think you are failing to notice, Roo, is verse 12, which defines who those "all" are:
Romans 3:12 NASB
(12) ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
Psalms 14:3 NASB
(3) They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
It describes people who have turned away from God.
Note the next verse in the Psalm:
Psalms 14:4 NASB
(4) Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?
"All" are those who work wickedness and do not call upon the LORD. They eat up "my people." So the people of God are separate from "all who work wickedness." "All" refers to a specific group of people.
Psalms 14:5 NASB
(5) There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.
Now, those in Jesus are the righteous generation. For in Jesus, God is with us.
Colossians 1:27 NASB
(27) to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 10, 2010 20:16:31 GMT -5
Roo wrote:
I agree that this is Paul's application for what he is quoting. But that doesn't change those quotes or the context in which they were said either - which is always why a 'it is written' is used to point us back to that context too.
And that my friend, is what makes 'my hermeneutic' a far cry from what Elf does with scripture.
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Post by kangaroojack on Oct 11, 2010 13:22:08 GMT -5
Roo wrote: I agree that this is Paul's application for what he is quoting. But that doesn't change those quotes or the context in which they were said either - which is always why a 'it is written' is used to point us back to that context too. And that my friend, is what makes 'my hermeneutic' a far cry from what Elf does with scripture. Robin, Would I redeem myself for my elf remark if I told you I love ya sis?  You are by far no elf. But your treatment of Romans 3 surely resembles elf's approach to the scriptures. You are plainly contradicting yourself. You said that you agree that Paul is applying the list of OT scriptures to both Jews and Greeks. Then you say that this does not change the context inwhich they were originally spoken. In other words, you admit that Paul meant to use those scriptures to prove that all mankind inclusively is under sin. But you don't want to accept that there is none seeketh after God. That's just double talk to me. Paul said that we are all justified (made right with God) on account of the obedience of the one man Jesus Christ (Romans 5). You were made right with God on account of Christ's obedience and not account of an obedeint faith that originated from you. I have home improvement projects to do and will be away a couple of days.  Roo |
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Post by Morris on Oct 12, 2010 14:26:13 GMT -5
What I think you are failing to notice, Roo, is verse 12, which defines who those "all" are: Romans 3:12 NASB (12) ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." Psalms 14:3 NASB (3) They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. It describes people who have turned away from God. I personally think that this has to do with Romans 11:30-32 " For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." God has turned all to disobedience, Jew and Gentile alike, so that He can have mercy on all. In this light, no one is righteous because all have been turned over to disobedience (turned away from obedience to God) so that they may be eligible for the righteousness of God; His grace and mercy through faith. |
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Post by Once4all on Oct 13, 2010 11:02:31 GMT -5
What I think you are failing to notice, Roo, is verse 12, which defines who those "all" are: Romans 3:12 NASB (12) ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." Psalms 14:3 NASB (3) They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. It describes people who have turned away from God. I personally think that this has to do with Romans 11:30-32 " For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." God has turned all to disobedience, Jew and Gentile alike, so that He can have mercy on all. In this light, no one is righteous because all have been turned over to disobedience (turned away from obedience to God) so that they may be eligible for the righteousness of God; His grace and mercy through faith. Sheldon, I think I agree with you there. The JFB Commentary on Romans 11:32 seems to sum it up reasonably well: that he might have mercy upon all — that is, those “all” of whom he had been discoursing; the Gentiles first, and after them the Jews [Fritzsche, Tholuck, Olshausen, De Wette, Philippi, Stuart, Hodge]. Certainly it is not “all mankind individually” [Meyer, Alford]; for the apostle is not here dealing with individuals, but with those great divisions of mankind, Jew and Gentile. And what he here says is that God’s purpose was to shut each of these divisions of men to the experience first of an humbled, condemned state, without Christ, and then to the experience of His mercy in Christ. — Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary See also Galatians 3:22-29. |
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Post by Morris on Oct 13, 2010 12:41:01 GMT -5
Sheldon, I think I agree with you there. The JFB Commentary on Romans 11:32 seems to sum it up reasonably well: ... See also Galatians 3:22-29. That's a very well spoken commentary on that verse. Thanks for sharing it. I certainly agree with that, although it said it much better. And yes, that passage in Galatians speaks of the same thing, IMO. |
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Post by Morris on Oct 14, 2010 10:39:35 GMT -5
I love doctrines that are built on pronouns. By grace, through faith, ye are saved. The subject is SALVATION - that is the gift! A gift that comes to us by the grace of God thru faith which channels or receives that grace. Also is the faith of Christ not also describing what our faith is upon? It is the power of Christ that saves us by delivering the grace of God to us which faith must receive to be accepted in the beloved. I could just go on and on... Thanks for mentioning this. I thought it was referring to salvation via grace but I now think you are absolutely right that it refers directly to salvation (i.e. to grace via salvation). Here is a commentary by Adam Clarke regarding Ephesians 2:8, I just thought this was such a great message. |
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Post by didymus on Oct 14, 2010 11:22:31 GMT -5
My Friends, Our brother Didy is engaging in the logical fallacy called dicto simpliciter or hasty generalization. Dicto simpliciter occurs when one draws a sweeping generalization from a few samples. Example: When my daughter first went to college in Indiana she excitedly told me that all the squirrels in Indiana are black. She had never seen a black squirrel in Maryland where she was raised. I asked her where she had seen the black squirrels and she said that they were scurrying outside the dormatory on campus. I told her that Indiana is a fairly big state and that there could be gray squirrels and even brown squirrels in some parts. My daughter had commited the fallacy of dicto simpliciter. So our brother Didy has committed the same fallacy. He has made a hasty generalization about Calvinists based on the samples he has gathered through his personal discussions. Fact is, the doctrine that God predestines some men to damnation is not Calvinism at all. Calvinist R.C. Sproul says: What Sproul says I have said here: Calvinism does not teach double predestination or 'equal ultimacy' as Sproul calls it. Calvinism teaches election and reprobation. God looked down from heaven and found that all have sinned. Those whom God had predestined to salvation He intervenes in their lives to bring them to salvation. The rest He just leaves to themselves in their sin. Didy, When you are ready to discuss particular scriptures about predestination let me know. I am not interested if you are going to generalize. Roo Roo, I found the following quote at MeetChristians.com: This shows that Calvin did teach that some are predestined to eternal life, and others to eternal damnation. So I ask again, where does Scripture show that? |
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