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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 3, 2010 12:54:15 GMT -5
Here is the link: www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Historical_Problem.htmI would like to talk about something he points out in this article - a conclusion he did not formulate, but which he laid out really well. He is discussing the 1st century Jewish expectations for Messiah and the kingdom of God as well as their view on the resurrection of the dead; then contrasts it with the phenomenon of Christianity who declared these things had come. |
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Post by Allyn on Oct 3, 2010 14:04:44 GMT -5
Reading through it now. I am enjoying the background of the resurrection idea.
Further down in the article he says: "a kingdom-Fog-God movement ". I wander what that is?
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Post by kangaroojack on Oct 3, 2010 21:01:51 GMT -5
I read the article and gleaned from it that the resurrection according to second temple Jews had to do with national restoration. If this is the resurrection that Jesus preached, then this would explain why Hebrews 6 says that they were to LEAVE the foundational teachings of Jesus even regarding the resurrection. They would have to LEAVE Christ's teachings on the resurrection because Christ's own resurrection declared the fact that resurrection would now mean something far more glorious than a mere national restoration.
So the resurrection doctrine according to Paul was about that. The resurrection that Paul preached was about Christ's resurrection declaring new covenant resurrection. It involves our putting off mortality and putting on immortality and ourselves being transformed into Christ's image.
I have felt for quite some time now that the resurrection doctrine had morphed from Jesus to Paul. I have reached no definite conclusions as yet on Wright's article. But it gives me something to work with in identifying that metamorphosis.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 4, 2010 9:32:51 GMT -5
What caught my attention was that OT Israel held to the promises in a carnal expectation of their fulfillment. While the NT Christians were living as though all these things had come to them. And it was the cross and resurrection of Christ which changed the scope of the promise to include heaven and earth.
NT Wright makes this contrast nicely I thought, except that he seems to think that a future return of Christ and resurrection of the dead to the earth is still part of the promise that remains unfulfilled, even while showing how these came spiritually to the Christians so that they lived their lives as though they were now in the kingdom of Christ serving God under the rule of their heavenly King with a new power.
The thing he mentions which caused the Jews to reject Jesus as Messiah - was His death on the cross. They thought Messiah would live forever to rule national Israel and the nations. To them that marked Him as a false Messiah - one more among many others. But how did the Jews expect ungodliness to be removed from the remnant of Jacob? Apparently they had learned nothing under the sacrificial system which they turned into works of self-righteousness.
And because the Romans were not vanquished and instead the temple was destroyed and Israel again went into exile among the nations, they gave up their hope for the prophecied kingdom and the Rabbis turned it into some far off end of the world idea instead. And the idea that a temple system is required still persists in their mind today.
Not willing to give up their carnal expectations & unbelief, they also clung to the idea that the bodies of the dead saints had to rise up to earthly life again to enjoy the kingdom they desired. But the Christians received new spiritual life in Chirst - which Nicodimus was supposed to know was the requirement for the kingdom of God. So an earthly resurrection was fulfilled by the giving of spiritual life for the people to have the power to serve God in the spiritual kingdom in the earth as His priests. While the dead were to be raised to serve their heavenly King in the presence of God in heaven.
I thought it was odd that NTW didn't make this connection for how their carnal hope in the promises was accomplished in the earth spiritually by the resurrection and ascension of Jesus to heaven. Which only goes to show the influence the Judaizers eventually had on the early church by the time men rose up to take the political rule of her. And that is the history we have had to contend with for all these years by men who have exchanged their hope for the same carnal lie because of their unbelief.
Yet Christians have held onto their hope of heaven because their Lord is there. So why doesn't NTW believe that those who live and believe in Him will never die? This is the 'in dying you will die' that came upon the first Adam, but which has been defeated by the last Adam. For though death continues here in the earth we will live forever in heaven because of the life He has given us! Apparently NTW doesn't see that a spiritual change came upon life and death either...thru the victory of Christ's death and resurrection.
Christ really did transform the order of the whole heaven and earth under the new kingdom He brought to us. But only faith believes it. Whereas unbelief keeps a man blind to truth - even when he speaks right things that ought to show it to him.
These children of the Judaizers are still hard at work today to make men forsake their new birth hope of heaven because they despise it. Which is the same reason that Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage - because it was only earthly blessings he desired. Which not even for those blessings, was he willing to obey, and became an enemy to the people of God in the end. It was the children of Edom who took advantage of their brethren to take a spoil from them when they were under siege. Is there anything new under the sun? As men clamor over one another to get the earthly rule...
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Post by kangaroojack on Oct 4, 2010 10:45:49 GMT -5
Robin said:
Robin,
Your statement makes me think of PT. He accuses us of being "antagonistically against God's good creation" because we are looking for a body from heaven. Yet heaven is also God's good creation and PT seems to despise the promise that the things of heaven is our living hope.
Roo
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 4, 2010 12:06:53 GMT -5
Roo,
The Judaizers were thinking they too were doing a service to God in what they were doing: killing the Lord for blasphemy, then persecuting the saints for their testimony that Jesus is Lord and Christ. They thought THAT was the lie. Which only goes to show that the truth of the matter is not in the things that are seen, but in what is held by belief in the truth thru faith.
The problem is still the same today. They can't see it the way they think it ought to be, and so they turn on us because they think we are the heretics trying to destroy what they have built for themselves (tower of babel anyone?).
In that day after the flood the Tower of Babel was built because men didn't believe the promise that God would not destroy the earth again with a flood. Yet they knew they were to disperse into the earth - and they didn't want to do that either. They thought their strength (against God?) was in sticking together.
But it was the mighty men of the earth that filled it with violence before and such would be the case again if men were allowed to unite together in their evil desires, to stay themselves against the purpose of God for them.
It is no different today among the unbelieving nations or the religious world who thinks it must vie for political power. And even Calvin's Geneva was patterned after the same model the Jews had fallen for again and again - to wed the power of the state to themselves so they could rule in the kingdom of God on the earth.
Notice that the same sectartian spirit cuts both ways - in that men cannot unite to pursue their agenda, as God makes sure their divisions keeps them dispersed. No one world government, nor one world religion can ever succeed - because there is no peace given to the wicked!
On the other hand, how are we to stop the mouths of the gainsayers if we do not contend for the word of God, which is the testimony of Christ, and the faith once delivered to the saints? These men are holding to the same false notions the Jews had - who had not the Spirit of God in them at all. Strife and contention is the mark of idolatry that is upon them - because of the covetousness of their hearts. Just like it was for Simon the Sorcerer who only wanted the power of God so he could continue to make the people think he was some 'great one'.
Our 'Mr. Noted Apologist' over at CARM, a title Brian Simmons gave him once on a podcast; is of the same ilk. And that is because he cares more about basking in his own glory and the men whom he admires, than he does in showing forth the glory of Christ. If that were not true, then love for the brethren would be what we would see demonstrated thru him. And who has seen any evidence of that? He loves his doctrine, not because it gives him a heavenly hope - but because of the power it gives him over others.
That creedal rule is the same invention of men - not to keep men in the faith of Christ - but to keep them connected to themselves. And that because they do not trust the power of God to do it for them. And even among some Preterists, you find the 'Kingdom Now' mentality that thinks Christians are to take the earthly rule over the kingdoms of men as this is the dominion they think they have been given. It is why they are seeking to establish another 'systematized theology' to promote their new creed.
It seems nobody wants to let the Spirit of God do His job His way!
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Post by kangaroojack on Oct 4, 2010 13:05:13 GMT -5
Robin said:
Yet when I showed Mr. 'Apologist' that some of the men he admires taught that the Greek 'soma' does not refer to flesh, skin and bones, but denotes the whole man he couldn't handle it.
Robin:
I won't allow guys like PT to cause Reformation Theology to get a raw deal. Originally Reformation theology was only about the five solas and not about all matters of doctrine or creeds. I admire the same men that PT admires. However, my faith is not grounded in their wisdom but is grounded in the power of God.
I remain committed to Reformation theology as it was when it was historically conceived. I can never give up the five solas. But I do vehemently reject man's corrupting them by adding to them.
Roo
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Post by Once4all on Oct 4, 2010 13:13:40 GMT -5
... No one world government, nor one world religion can ever succeed - because there is no peace given to the wicked! ... Good comment, Robin! ... And even among some Preterists, you find the 'Kingdom Now' mentality that thinks Christians are to take the earthly rule over the kingdoms of men as this is the dominion they think they have been given. ... I guess there are different understandings of the term "Kingdom Now." To me, it simply means that the Kingdom of God exists NOW for believers; it is not limited to a future kingdom. My view of "Kingdom Now" has nothing to do with overcoming earthly rule. The Kingdom is not physical that it should overcome physical opposition, it is spiritual! And it is to overcome spiritual opposition within each of us. In your earlier post, you wrote: ... This is the 'in dying you will die' that came upon the first Adam ... I know that scripture is there, but I can't find it. Help, por favor? Gracias. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 4, 2010 14:48:58 GMT -5
De nada - here is what I have -
From Young's Literal Translation:
GEN 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it-dying thou dost die.'
From the CLV:
GEN 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying."
From the LXX:
...but in whatever day you should eat from it, in death you shall die.
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Post by Morris on Oct 4, 2010 16:24:26 GMT -5
Great posts Robin!
I have never seen that in Genesis 2:17 before. Very interesting!
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Post by Once4all on Oct 4, 2010 21:23:44 GMT -5
Thank you, Robin. That sure shows the importance of a literal translation. "You will surely die" does not relate the same depth of meaning.
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Post by Once4all on Oct 5, 2010 22:57:51 GMT -5
Reading through it now. I am enjoying the background of the resurrection idea. Further down in the article he says: "a kingdom-Fog-God movement ". I wander what that is? I'm fairly certain that is a typo and should simply be kingdom-of-God. I've noticed several typos in the article. It could initially have been mistyped as kingdom-og-God (f and g are next to each other on the keyboard) and automatic correction software "corrected" og to Fog. Whatever the case, "kingdom-of-God" is certainly intended, IMHO. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 5, 2010 23:14:03 GMT -5
Reading through it now. I am enjoying the background of the resurrection idea. Further down in the article he says: "a kingdom-Fog-God movement ". I wander what that is? I'm fairly certain that is a typo and should simply be kingdom-of-God. I've noticed several typos in the article. It could initially have been mistyped as kingdom-og-God (f and g are next to each other on the keyboard) and automatic correction software "corrected" og to Fog. Whatever the case, "kingdom-of-God" is certainly intended, IMHO. lol, I wondered too what he meant by Fog ha ha hah! Duh typo... |
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Post by Once4all on Oct 5, 2010 23:23:34 GMT -5
Another example of typographical error. This one indicates (to me) that the errors are a result of OCR (optical character reader/recognition) conversion of a paper document to electronic:
"... the dimples, who were overcome by deep feelings of guilt at having run away and let Jesus down, ..."
Dimples, indeed. Though the disciples may have had dimples!
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Post by Once4all on Oct 5, 2010 23:29:52 GMT -5
OK, somebody should really have proofread this before posting it to the web. They have way too much confidence in OCR equipment!
"... and they already had Language systems for speaking of suck phenomena. ..."
That would be "such phenomena." Good grief.
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Post by Morris on Oct 6, 2010 10:04:55 GMT -5
 And someone is probably developing doctrines with this! *wipes tears* [clarification - this is a comment on the typos, not the content of the article, which I have not read. Sorry for any confusion.]
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 6, 2010 10:53:07 GMT -5
Well NTW certainly has had his hand in a few of them - which is why I thought he had some new term for the kingdom he was referencing! And actually the way he was trying to show the difference between a temporal fulfillment vs a spiritual one; I actually thought he might be using the term to describe the spiritual kingdom. I've seen worse...
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