Faith alone: Christ and Paul? Or exclusively Paul?

[kangaroojack]

didymus said:

Christ and the apostles were the first to champion "faith alone," not Calvinists.

Hi All:

Please see the following link for the history of the justification by faith alone.
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1498316/posts


This thread is for the purpose of challenging didymus's suggestion that Christ taught salvation by faith alone. Yes Christ did teach that those who believed in Him would not perish but would have everlasting life. But it must be kept in mind that the old covenant was still in effect when Christ spoke those words. The word "faith" as Christ used it must be understood within its old covenant content. Faith in its old covenant content included works.

Let's look at Christ's statement in John 3:16 in context:

16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
17For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
18he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19`And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;
20for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.' John 3:16-21 YLT

Please note that Jesus defined believing in Him in terms of "works" (vs. 21). Yet Paul clearly taught that works have no place at all in salvation:

8for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

9not of works, that no one may boast; Ephesians 2:8-9 YLT

Christ included works with faith for salvation. But Paul excluded works altogether. The book of Hebrews teaches that Christ's teachings on faith and repentance were foundational and that that foundation is not to be layed again. Paul taught that his faith alone gospel was "now being revealed" (Romans 3:21-22).

Many Christians balk at the suggestion that Paul's teachings on faith trumped Christ's teachings on the same. But it must always be kept in mind that Christ came as Servant and as such He had to speak only what was revealed to Him like all the other prophets. Christ taught the requirement of faith as it then stood when He spoke. So Paul taught what was required of faith in the age to follow.

When Christ spoke faith was to work for salvation. When Paul spoke faith was to rest in the work of Christ.

I submit therefore that the "faith alone" doctrine is exclusive to Paul. Yes Paul abrogated the teachings of Christ and of James in reference to salvation. But remember that Paul's gospel came by the revelation of Jesus Christ Himself (Galatians 1:11-12). It is as Tertullian said, "God must be believed on in His own dispensation."

Roo

[Once4all]

I don't know if it makes any difference to this discussion, but there is strong evidence (and I believe it) that John 3:16-21 (even starting back at verse 13) are not the words of Jesus, but are John's commentary.

[kangaroojack]

Sept 17, 2010 20:31:47 GMT -5 Once4all said:

I don't know if it makes any difference to this discussion, but there is strong evidence (and I believe it) that John 3:16-21 (even starting back at verse 13) are not the words of Jesus, but are John's commentary.

Hi Bev,

It would make no difference because faith included works then no matter if it was Jesus or John speaking. New covenant faith does not work but rests in the work of Christ.

Roo

[didymus]

Do think we can agree that faith produces works. Without the works that faith produces shows that faith is dead.

[MoGrace2U]

How hard is to see that in John the works are those wrought of God which must be brought forth, vs Paul's works which are of man? There is no conflict between them since the subject is different according to the context.

[Morris]

Sept 17, 2010 16:34:30 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Faith in its old covenant content included works.

Faith in its new covenant context includes works as well.

Hebrews 10:24
"And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works". This is basically the same message James had.

1 John 3:10
"In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother."
And, verse 17,
"But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?"

The good works we are to do are those that stem from the nature of God. That is why we are"partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

Paul says the same thing, "Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:1,2)

Everywhere I turn scripture says the same thing! Doctrines are valuable and worth forming, but they can also be like handcuffs if given too much weight. [Hmm... I wonder if that is why doctrines are shown to be character traits in scripture and why we are to be slaves to God?]

[kangaroojack]

Sept 18, 2010 17:24:11 GMT -5 @didymus said:

Do think we can agree that faith produces works. Without the works that faith produces shows that faith is dead.

But works don't justify in the new covenant age. Why can't anyone here see this?

Roo

[kangaroojack]

Sept 18, 2010 20:27:13 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

How hard is to see that in John the works are those wrought of God which must be brought forth, vs Paul's works which are of man? There is no conflict between them since the subject is different according to the context.

In the new covenant age we are justified by the work of Christ ALONE! Paul said, "by the obedience of the One (Christ) the many were made righteous." We cannot now be saved by a work we do that is "of God." We are saved by the obedience of Christ ALONE. Period!

John 3:16-21 was spoken before Christ rendered that obedience which ALONE saves us! Therefore, they were still under the old covenant requirement of faith which included that they do works "of God." The new covenant requirement of faith is to rest in Christ ALONE! Rest excludes all works.



Roo

[kangaroojack]

Morris said:

Faith in its new covenant context includes works as well.

Morris,

I am talking about salvation man! You're talking about post-salvation works.

We are saved APART from the works of the law (Romans 3:21).

Roo

[kangaroojack]

Sept 20, 2010 13:20:53 GMT -5 Morris said:

Sept 17, 2010 16:34:30 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Faith in its old covenant content included works.

Faith in its new covenant context includes works as well.

Hebrews 10:24
"And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works". This is basically the same message James had.

1 John 3:10
"In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother."
And, verse 17,
"But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?"

The good works we are to do are those that stem from the nature of God. That is why we are"partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4).

Paul says the same thing, "Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:1,2)

Everywhere I turn scripture says the same thing! Doctrines are valuable and worth forming, but they can also be like handcuffs if given too much weight. [Hmm... I wonder if that is why doctrines are shown to be character traits in scripture and why we are to be slaves to God?]

Morris,

Not one of the scriptures you give is speaking about how we are saved. They ALL are talking about our post-salvation relation to God. The new covenant content of faith for salvation totally excludes works. Jesus did not teach that we are saved by His obedience. Paul said that it is by the "obedience of the One" (Christ), that "the many were made righteous" (Romans 5).

We are save by the obedience of Christ ALONE!

Is this a Catholic or a Protestant site?


Roo

[Morris]

Sept 20, 2010 13:49:18 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Morris,

I am talking about salvation man! You're talking about post-salvation works.

We are saved APART from the works of the law (Romans 3:21).
Roo

No one was ever saved by works of the law. Even James shows this.

Now when John said "Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother", do you think that person is still saved despite being "not of God"?

Please show me where works of the law saved or justified anyone. Even the old testament shows that only those who first trust and love the Lord, whose hearts are toward Him, will obey His righteous law. And by the way, the law was righteous, but nobody could uphold it or live by it; it was weak because of the flesh.

Galatians 3:21
"For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law."

This is what the new covenant is about, providing what the old could not. We know that the law could only bring an outwardly righteousness as it compared man to man (as in Matthew 23:28). Or as is seen in Philippians 3:9, "and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law".

Furthermore, the law was made for the unrighteous, not to make them righteous, but to show them that they can't be righteous by anything they do - it must come from God as a gift and not as a reward for work.

I'll say it yet again, God does not change His nature and therefore cannot change the truth of how a man must be saved, as if works can suffice one day and not the next.

(P.S. If you're frustrated it might be because you are being confronted by truth )

[didymus]

Sept 20, 2010 13:23:15 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Sept 18, 2010 17:24:11 GMT -5 @didymus said:

Do think we can agree that faith produces works. Without the works that faith produces shows that faith is dead.

But works don't justify in the new covenant age. Why can't anyone here see this?

Roo

I didn't say works justified, I am simply in agreement with James. Faith without works is dead. Faith that does not produce works is dead.

[kangaroojack]

Morris said:

No one was ever saved by works of the law. Even James shows this.

Morris,

How does James show that a man was never justified by the works of the law? How can you say this when James explicitly said that a man is justified by works and not by faith only (2:24)? And what about verse 14?

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

So there it is. James rhetorically asked if faith without works can save a man. The implied answer is "No." Therefore, James taught that a man is justified by faith plus works:

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

There it is again. James begun with the implication that faith without works cannot save (vs. 14). Then he concluded from the examples of Abraham and Rahab that a man is justified by works and not by faith only.

You have suggested that I am making the Bible difficult to comprehend. But you are not taking James' words as they read. You deny both James opening and concluding statements on this matter. James taught totally opposite from Paul on the subject of how a man is justified before God. The epistle of James is either old covenant or it is non-canonical as many believe.

So choose brother. Is the epistle of James old covenant? Or is it non-canonical having no place in scripture? If James is new covenant then God blatantly contradicts Himself and we all should eat and drink and live as we please.

Roo

[kangaroojack]

Morris said:

Please show me where works of the law saved or justified anyone. Even the old testament shows that only those who first trust and love the Lord, whose hearts are toward Him, will obey His righteous law. And by the way, the law was righteous, but nobody could uphold it or live by it; it was weak because of the flesh.

Galatians 3:21
"For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law."

Morris,

I was wondering when you would bring up Paul's statement from Galatians 3:21. It is unfortunate that soooo many people have misunderstood Paul's statement. The issue was the relationship of the ceremonial law to our justification. The Galatians were being deceived into thinking that they were justified by keeping circumcision. Regarding the moral law Paul said that it was "ordained to life" but that it "became" death to him (Rom. 7:13).

How and when did the moral law "become" death? Answer: When Christ died for our sins.

Old covenant: Law was life. A man was justified by obeying it.

New coveannt: Law is death and Christ Himself is our life. A man is justified by the obedience of Christ alone.

Roo

[Morris]

Sept 21, 2010 9:56:55 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

How does James show that a man was never justified by the works of the law?

Please note the bolded and underlined clause.

James speaks of works only as it stems from faith. True faith which produces a life of good works is what saves. Works outside of faith, even works of the law, never justified anyone.

John 14:12-15
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. If you love Me, keep My commandments."

The works are derived from God that He may be glorified. These works are done because we love Him and have thus surrendered to Him. Now, what are Christ's commandments? It was given in the previous chapter;

John 13:34
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another."

James confirms this in 2:8, "If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well"

That is exactly what James is telling us we have to do when he asks "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food...". Jesus said, "If you love me". If we love Him we will demonstrate it through our works and thus keep His commandments. This is Christ's law of liberty and not of the law! (James 2:12)

This exact message is seen elsewhere. 1 John 4:21 says, "And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also". It is not possible to truly love God (i.e. have faith) and not love your brother. True faith brings a true love for your brother because that love is the love from God.

1 Thessalonians 4:9
"But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another"

Why do you think the new testament repeats "love one another" so many times? It is the fulfillment of what Jesus commanded!

John 15:9
"As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love"

It's so simple people have a great difficulty believing it.

[Morris]

Sept 21, 2010 10:22:47 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

I was wondering when you would bring up Paul's statement from Galatians 3:21. It is unfortunate that soooo many people have misunderstood Paul's statement. The issue was the relationship of the ceremonial law to our justification.

So you are saying that, "What purpose then does the [ceremonial] law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. For if there had been a [ceremonial] law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the [ceremonial] law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the [ceremonial] law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the [ceremonial] law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."?

Are you really saying that Paul is intending that the ceremonial law was added because of transgressions? And kept them under guard? Kept them for the faith? And was their tutor to bring them to Christ? How did you arrive at a distinction between ceremonial and moral law? Romans 7:13 just says the commandment, tying it to the law. Do you say the commandment is moral or ceremonial? How do you decide?

How and when did the moral law "become" death? Answer: When Christ died for our sins.

Then the new covenant came when Christ died for our sins!

Old covenant: Law was life. A man was justified by obeying it.

This isn't even in the old testament! It's in man-made doctrine! Life and righteousness came through God alone to those whose hearts were toward Him, because it was those who did works according to faith!

Deuteronomy 29:14-20
"I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, but with him who stands here with us today before the LORD our God, as well as with him who is not here with us today... so that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood; and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart’—as though the drunkard could be included with the sober."

This the "keep guard" that Paul spoke of! The law kept guard that "there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the LORD our God". This was the purpose of the law and the commandments; that in keeping your heart turned to God you may realize that nothing you could do could keep you perfect and righteous before Him. Thus, you place your faith in His work, and through love live for Him.

(For even further insight into what God desired, continue to read in Deuteronomy 30:1-10 where you will see such amazing things as "the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live")

New coveannt: Law is death and Christ Himself is our life. A man is justified by the obedience of Christ alone.

Is this obedience a work that provides a reward?

[kangaroojack]

Morris said:

James speaks of works only as it stems from faith.

Morris,

This is double talk brother! James said that faith without works cannot save a man (vs. 14). Then he said that a man is justified by works and not by faith only (vs. 24). Paul abrogated James' method of justification.

I had to take a course in Logic at college to meet requirements for philosophy. The first principle I was taught was that two contradictory statements cannot be true at the same time. James' statement that a man is justified by works and Paul's statement that a man is not justified by works cannot both be true simutaneously. Therefore, they were true in different times and the one was abrogated by the other.

Morris:

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Oh, so we now have to perform miracles and raise the dead in order to be saved? You're grasping at straws my brother. James said that faith without works cannot save a man (2:14). Now you introduce a statement Jesus made to His disciples which was a promise to them that they would perform greater miracles when James was clearly talking about deeds of righteousness.

I think I am proving my case. James is old covenant plain and simple!

Morris:

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another."

James confirms this in 2:8, "If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well"

That is exactly what James is telling us we have to do when he asks "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food...". Jesus said, "If you love me". If we love Him we will demonstrate it through our works and thus keep His commandments. This is Christ's law of liberty and not of the law! (James 2:12)

But this cannot justify us now as it did when James wrote. It is Jesus' and James' method of justification alone that Paul abrogated. The duties themselves still remain. But the performance of them no longer can justify us!

Example: Jesus taught His disciples to ask the Father to forgive them as they forgave one another. Paul abrogated this. It is now, "Forgive one another as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you." Forgiveness before was conditional upon their forgiving others. If they did not forgive they could not be forgiven. If they failed to forgive they would lose the forgiveness of God and be punished (Matt. 18). But now the forgiveness of God is unconditional and we are to forgive not on the basis that we might be forgiven but on the basis that we have been forgiven for Christ's sake. We are still under the mandate to forgive. But we cannot be justified by it because we have already been forgiven ALL trespasses. Our failure to forgive no longer puts us in danger of losing God's forgiveness. This is so because we are forgiven "for Christ's sake" and not for our own sake.

Morris:

This exact message is seen elsewhere. 1 John 4:21 says, "And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also". It is not possible to truly love God (i.e. have faith) and not love your brother. True faith brings a true love for your brother because that love is the love from God.

1 Thessalonians 4:9
"But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another"

Why do you think the new testament repeats "love one another" so many times? It is the fulfillment of what Jesus commanded!

John 15:9
"As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love"

It's so simple people have a great difficulty believing it.

You keep on changing the subject from how we are justified to our post-salvation duties as a saved people because you know that your position on justification is indefensible.

blessings,

Roo

[kangaroojack]

Morris asked:

Are you really saying that Paul is intending that the ceremonial law was added because of transgressions?

Exactly! Hebrews says that the sacrifices were the "yearly REMINDER of sin." Read Galatians in context. The whole issue was circumcision.

Morris:

And kept them under guard? Kept them for the faith? And was their tutor to bring them to Christ?

Exactly! It was circumcision and baptisms and animal sacrifices that guared them until Christ gave His flesh and made the cleansing by His blood for us. Do you not care about context? Paul was arguing against the law of circumcision as a requirement for salvation. Note his summary at the end of the epistle:

11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand! 12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Morris:

ow did you arrive at a distinction between ceremonial and moral law? Romans 7:13 just says the commandment, tying it to the law. Do you say the commandment is moral or ceremonial? How do you decide?

The "commandment" in Romans 7 is the moral law for Paul had just said, "I would not have known sin except the law had said, 'You shall not covet.' "

You are making the same mistake most people make. You see the word "law" and you assume a definition without examining its use in context. The "law" in Romans 7 is the moral code. In Galatians it was the ceremonial law because circumcision was the issue.

I said:

How and when did the moral law "become" death? Answer: When Christ died for our sins.

Morris replied:

Then the new covenant came when Christ died for our sins!

I should have been more clear. His death was only part 1 of the atonement. Part 2 was His intercessory work as High Priest at the heavenly altar. The new covenant came when Christ finished that work in ad70. Hebrews 8 says that the old "is passing away" (present participle expressing continuous action in present time).

Morris:

This isn't even in the old testament! It's in man-made doctrine! Life and righteousness came through God alone to those whose hearts were toward Him, because it was those who did works according to faith!

Deuteronomy 29:14-20
"I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, but with him who stands here with us today before the LORD our God, as well as with him who is not here with us today... so that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood; and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart’—as though the drunkard could be included with the sober."

This the "keep guard" that Paul spoke of! The law kept guard that "there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the LORD our God". This was the purpose of the law and the commandments; that in keeping your heart turned to God you may realize that nothing you could do could keep you perfect and righteous before Him. Thus, you place your faith in His work, and through love live for Him.

(For even further insight into what God desired, continue to read in Deuteronomy 30:1-10 where you will see such amazing things as "the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live")

Your point being...? God circumcised hearts under the old covenant as He does under the new covenant.

I said:

New coveannt: Law is death and Christ Himself is our life. A man is justified by the obedience of Christ alone.

Morris replied:

Is this obedience a work that provides a reward?

The reward that Christ's obedience gives us is our being made right with God (justification, Romans 5).

Roo

[Morris]

Sept 21, 2010 12:42:59 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

The "commandment" in Romans 7 is the moral law for Paul had just said, "I would not have known sin except the law had said, 'You shall not covet.' "

You are making the same mistakes most prople make. You see the word "law" and you assume a definition without examining its use in context. The "law" in Romans 7 is the moral code. In Galatians it was the ceremonial law because circumcision was the issue.

Is Romans 7 really speaking of the 'moral code'? If this is true, then we are free from the moral code and not the ceremonial one. Just look at the preceding verses, "Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ", "the sinful passions which were aroused by the law", "But now we have been delivered from the law". Is this speaking of the moral law only? I am looking at context.

I should have been more clear. His death was only part 1 of the atonement. Part 2 was His intercessory work as High Priest at the heavenly altar. The new covenant came when Christ finished that work in ad70.

How can this be if Paul was preaching the new covenant before 70 AD? By what old covenant mechanism are you allowing the intercessory sprinkling of blood to be separated from the sacrifice by 40 years? According to the law they must be done as a single event in the same day.

How could Paul say "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" if the new covenant was not yet come?

Hebrews 8 says that the old "is passing away" (present participle expressing continuous action in present time).

We've addressed this already; "He has made the first obsolete". Elsewhere it says Christ violently removed the old as by murder. What remained was a dead corpse that was rotting and would soon be completely decomposed.

Morris:
Your point being...? God circumcised hearts under the old covenant as He does under the new covenant.

My point is that your statement "Old covenant: Law was life. A man was justified by obeying it." is not true in the old covenant. A man was justified by faith (a circumcised heart) and life came from loving the Lord with all their heart (with all faith).

Justification and life came from loving God fully. Those that loved the lord then obeyed Him. The same is true in the new covenant.

The reward that Christ's obedience gives us is our being made right with God (justification, Romans 5).

Oh, I see what you're saying; the obedience that Christ displayed to God, not our obedience to Christ. This I agree with, although His reward is our gift.

But if that is new covenant, how is it that we read about this throughout the new testament when it isn't put into effect until 70 AD?

[Morris]

Sept 21, 2010 12:07:36 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Morris said:

James speaks of works only as it stems from faith.

Morris,

This is double talk brother! James said that faith without works cannot save a man (vs. 14). Then he said that a man is justified by works and not by faith only (vs. 24). Paul abrogated James' method of justification.

And we start all over again. Jesus said faith alone, then James says works, and then we end up with Paul saying faith alone again and proves it from the old testament. Did James abrogate Jesus? It has always been the same, if you love (if you have faith), you will do. Not to be justified, but because you have been justified.

That's why James says faith must have works - your actions will follow your heart.

Oh, so we now have to perform miracles and raise the dead in order to be saved? You're grasping at straws my brother. James said that faith without works cannot save a man (2:14).

That's not exactly what James says. He says "I will show you my faith by my works". The works were the evidence of the faith. And by corollary he also says "faith without works is dead". The presence of works indicates a live faith while the absence of faith indicated a dead faith. Either way, it points back to, and examines the state of, a person's faith.

So if it all comes back to faith, we can see that "by works faith was made perfect". If faith was there, the worked was seen. If faith was not there, the work was not seen. Abraham believed, so he was prepared to offer up his son knowing that God would kept His promise. If He didn't have that faith he never would have been willing to do this. He was justified by faith when he believed what God told him and his faith was perfected because it stood fast when put to the trial of trust.

This is the whole point of the faith chapter in Hebrews. People did things because they had faith (By faith), not because any work justified them.

If we see "two contradictory statements" we had best make sure we understand what those statements are saying. Besides, Abraham was not in two different times. If he was justified under the old covenant by works, he was still justified that way even though we are under the new covenant. Yet Paul says he wasn't justified before God.

Furthermore, Paul, under inspiration, said that David knew that God justified apart from works. He then goes on to show that Abraham was justified before he did anything, before he was even circumcised, which he received as "a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised".

Works to us are the same. They are like a seal, an indication of the righteousness of our faith.
Philippians 2:13
"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."
And all the other verses I have shared in this thread such as, you cannot love the Lord and not love your brother. Those great works spoken of by Jesus are these very works, that we love our brother, for it is by this love people will know that we are His disciples.

The miracle is that we can demonstrate God's love to the world because He dwells in us.