Preterism implies Calvinism

[kangaroojack]

Greetings Truth Upon Truth friends,

My following argument for Preterism implies Calvinism has never been successfully refuted. Not even Brian Simmons could refute me back in the days when the Presteristarchive board was still operating. I went under a different nickname then. Brian was stumbling all over the place trying to refute me and was unsuccessful. By the way, if anyone knows how to get Brian Simmons over here I want to challenge him to a one on one debate on the resurrection. He thinks that the resurrection implies futurism. If anyone here knows how to reach him please let him know that I want to debate him.

My argument for Preterism implies Calvinism has not been successfully refuted because the logic is so simple. Here it goes:

Preterists correctly teach that the new earth of Revelation 21-22 is the covenantally renewed earth and refers to this present new covenant age. The New Jerusalem which descended to the new earth is therefore a present spiritual reality. Now the logic:

Sinners are KEPT OUT of the New Jerusalem which means that the "whosoever will" gospel invitation can go out only to those who are within the city's gates. See how simple it really is?

You might say that the sinners may come in through the gates and afterwards they may accept the gospel offer. This is not possible because it says, "Let the unjust be unjust still. And let the just be just still." Those who entered this age "unjust" in God's sight must remain unjust and are forever kept out of the city. And those who entered this age "just" must remain just and are granted free entrance into the city. Therefore, the "whosoever will" gospel invitation can go out only to the "just" who have entered into the city. All others are kept out!

The "unjust" can no more become just in this age than a tare could become a wheat stalk in the old covenant age. And the "just" can no more become unjust in this age than a stalk of wheat could become a tare in the old order. Goats remained goats and sheep remained sheep in the old order. So the unjust must remain what they are and the just must remain what they are. The only difference is that the tares and the wheat co-existed together in the old covenant kingdom while the unjust in the new covenant age are now outside the new spiritual kingdom.

Yes, if you are a Christian in this age God deemed you "just" on the merit of Christ BEFORE you even knew it! You believed on Christ because God had already deemed you "just" in His sight.

Maybe the brain power exists on this board to refute my conclusion that Preterism implies Calvinism.

Love in Christ,

Roo

[didymus]

I have found a flaw in you logic, and I will point it out if you answer my question. I asked this question in another thread. You're not running away from it, are you?

I have a question. If God predetermined who would have eternal life before the foundation of the world, then why did Christ have to go to the cross?

[kangaroojack]

Aug 31, 2010 12:01:58 GMT -5 @didymus said:

I have found a flaw in you logic, and I will point it out if you answer my question. I asked this question in another thread. You're not running away from it, are you?

I have a question. If God predetermined who would have eternal life before the foundation of the world, then why did Christ have to go to the cross?

Hi didymus,

I am not running away from your question. I posted the new thread and then went to run some errands. I have been studying the Bible a looooong time bro!

The elect are still sinners and need Christ's atonement sacrifice. Peter said that Christ was "delivered by the predeterminate counsel and foreknowledge of God." So I can turn the tables on you with a question of like kind: If God predetermined Christ's death, then why was it necessary for sinners to crucify Him?

Now point out my logical flaw regarding my conclusion that Preterism implies Calvinism. Pretty please...

Roo

[Allyn]

Aug 31, 2010 10:30:56 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Greetings Truth Upon Truth friends,

My following argument for Preterism implies Calvinism has never been successfully refuted. Not even Brian Simmons could refute me back in the days when the Presteristarchive board was still operating. I went under a different nickname then. Brian was stumbling all over the place trying to refute me and was unsuccessful. By the way, if anyone knows how to get Brian Simmons over here I want to challenge him to a one on one debate on the resurrection. He thinks that the resurrection implies futurism. If anyone here knows how to reach him please let him know that I want to debate him.

My argument for Preterism implies Calvinism has not been successfully refuted because the logic is so simple. Here it goes:

Preterists correctly teach that the new earth of Revelation 21-22 is the covenantally renewed earth and refers to this present new covenant age. The New Jerusalem which descended to the new earth is therefore a present spiritual reality. Now the logic:

Sinners are KEPT OUT of the New Jerusalem which means that the "whosoever will" gospel invitation can go out only to those who are within the city's gates. See how simple it really is?

You might say that the sinners may come in through the gates and afterwards they may accept the gospel offer. This is not possible because it says, "Let the unjust be unjust still. And let the just be just still." Those who entered this age "unjust" in God's sight must remain unjust and are forever kept out of the city. And those who entered this age "just" must remain just and are granted free entrance into the city. Therefore, the "whosoever will" gospel invitation can go out only to the "just" who have entered into the city. All others are kept out!

The "unjust" can no more become just in this age than a tare could become a wheat stalk in the old covenant age. And the "just" can no more become unjust in this age than a stalk of wheat could become a tare in the old order. Goats remained goats and sheep remained sheep in the old order. So the unjust must remain what they are and the just must remain what they are. The only difference is that the tares and the wheat co-existed together in the old covenant kingdom while the unjust in the new covenant age are now outside the new spiritual kingdom.

Yes, if you are a Christian in this age God deemed you "just" on the merit of Christ BEFORE you even knew it! You believed on Christ because God had already deemed you "just" in His sight.

Maybe the brain power exists on this board to refute my conclusion that Preterism implies Calvinism.

Love in Christ,

Roo

The New Jerusalem is the Church because it is only the Church that is adorned like a bride. Therefore it only stands to reason that those of the Church - the body of Christ - are those who have obtained salvation. But, according to Rom. 3:23 all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. None are righteous, no not one. In otherwords we were all at one time like those outside of the Church, that New Jerusalem. At one point in time we received the Good News even while we were outside of the gates. Keep in mind that the New Jerusalem has been around for 2000 years. So being like those who are still outside of the gates we obtained salvation in our generation. More will come in as long as time is. The Holy Spirit has never been restricted from prodding the hearts of men and women except unless the hearer rejects the message. All sin is forgiveable except the one that is the rejection of the calling. This is where the unjust remain unjust but when a sinner repents and receives the message then he is no longer called unjust but rather righteous and therefore is no longer under condemnation.

[kangaroojack]

Aug 31, 2010 12:52:17 GMT -5 Allyn said:

Aug 31, 2010 10:30:56 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Greetings Truth Upon Truth friends,

My following argument for Preterism implies Calvinism has never been successfully refuted. Not even Brian Simmons could refute me back in the days when the Presteristarchive board was still operating. I went under a different nickname then. Brian was stumbling all over the place trying to refute me and was unsuccessful. By the way, if anyone knows how to get Brian Simmons over here I want to challenge him to a one on one debate on the resurrection. He thinks that the resurrection implies futurism. If anyone here knows how to reach him please let him know that I want to debate him.

My argument for Preterism implies Calvinism has not been successfully refuted because the logic is so simple. Here it goes:

Preterists correctly teach that the new earth of Revelation 21-22 is the covenantally renewed earth and refers to this present new covenant age. The New Jerusalem which descended to the new earth is therefore a present spiritual reality. Now the logic:

Sinners are KEPT OUT of the New Jerusalem which means that the "whosoever will" gospel invitation can go out only to those who are within the city's gates. See how simple it really is?

You might say that the sinners may come in through the gates and afterwards they may accept the gospel offer. This is not possible because it says, "Let the unjust be unjust still. And let the just be just still." Those who entered this age "unjust" in God's sight must remain unjust and are forever kept out of the city. And those who entered this age "just" must remain just and are granted free entrance into the city. Therefore, the "whosoever will" gospel invitation can go out only to the "just" who have entered into the city. All others are kept out!

The "unjust" can no more become just in this age than a tare could become a wheat stalk in the old covenant age. And the "just" can no more become unjust in this age than a stalk of wheat could become a tare in the old order. Goats remained goats and sheep remained sheep in the old order. So the unjust must remain what they are and the just must remain what they are. The only difference is that the tares and the wheat co-existed together in the old covenant kingdom while the unjust in the new covenant age are now outside the new spiritual kingdom.

Yes, if you are a Christian in this age God deemed you "just" on the merit of Christ BEFORE you even knew it! You believed on Christ because God had already deemed you "just" in His sight.

Maybe the brain power exists on this board to refute my conclusion that Preterism implies Calvinism.

Love in Christ,

Roo

The New Jerusalem is the Church because it is only the Church that is adorned like a bride. Therefore it only stands to reason that those of the Church - the body of Christ - are those who have obtained salvation. But, according to Rom. 3:23 all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. None are righteous, no not one. In otherwords we were all at one time like those outside of the Church, that New Jerusalem. At one point in time we received the Good News even while we were outside of the gates. Keep in mind that the New Jerusalem has been around for 2000 years. So being like those who are still outside of the gates we obtained salvation in our generation. More will come in as long as time is. The Holy Spirit has never been restricted from prodding the hearts of men and women except unless the hearer rejects the message. All sin is forgiveable except the one that is the rejection of the calling. This is where the unjust remain unjust but when a sinner repents and receives the message then he is no longer called unjust but rather righteous and therefore is no longer under condemnation.

Hi Allyn,

The city-bride is represented as a completed structure with inhabitants. The inhabitants go in and out of the city-bride. Therefore, the inhabitants are not a part of the city-bride. Only the just go in and out through the gates of the city-bride. The "dogs" are kept out altogether.

The Holy Spirit is indeed "restricted" to inviting only those who have access through the gates into the city-bride (22:17).

Roo

[Allyn]

Roo,
You say this but how would you prove it?
Rev 22:17 says:
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Who are the thirsty? Are they not those outside of the gates? Were you, according to Scripture, a heathen or a redeemed prior to your salvation? Is not you salvation dependent upon your acceptance of the Gospel and is not the Gospel to the whole worlrd?

Furthermore, is not the whole world occupied both believers and unbelievers? When we become saved are we not to be transformed by the word of God even though we live with the yet unsaved?

How would you prove against any of these things.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

Is this not aplicable to all people in all generations?

[kangaroojack]

Allyn said:

Roo,
You say this but how would you prove it?
Rev 22:17 says:
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Greetings Allyn,

One must be inside the gates to drink the water of life. Right? And "dogs" don't thirst for water do they? They return to their vomit. The dogs are not granted access into the gates of the city.

Allyn:

Who are the thirsty? Are they not those outside of the gates?

Those without the gates do not thirst for the water. They are "dogs" which prefer their vomit.

Allyn:

Were you, according to Scripture, a heathen or a redeemed prior to your salvation?

According to Paul I was an unredeemed child of God.

1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

Please note the parts in bold lettering. Paul said that they were "children" but when Christ redeemed them they became "sons." Redeemed men do not become God's children at the point of their redemption. They already are God's children. They become God's "sons." Christ came to redeem the children of God and make them His sons. Jesus did not come to redeem the children of the devil.

Allyn:

Is not you salvation dependent upon your acceptance of the Gospel and is not the Gospel to the whole worlrd?

No brother! My salvation was dependent upon God's grace alone and faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Allyn:

Furthermore, is not the whole world occupied both believers and unbelievers? When we become saved are we not to be transformed by the word of God even though we live with the yet unsaved?

We're talking about the New Jerusalem which is spiritual. It came down from heaven as a fully completed structure with all its foundations and walls having been completed. God is not adding to the New Jerusalem (the Bride). It is a completed structure. God gives the "just" access into it and they alone are the thirsty who are invited to drink and be saved.

The rest are the "dogs" who may not enter. They are forever consigned to be without the city's gates. However.... We don't know who they are so we offer everyone the water of life to all men indiscriminately. But the Spirit offers discriminately to "whosoever will" which are those who have access into the city. They drink and become manifest to us as the "just."

Allyn:

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

Paul said that ALL have heard.

Allyn:

Is this not aplicable to all people in all generations?

Yes this is applicable in all new covenant generations but not applicable too all men indiscriminately. It is applicable to those in all generations who have access into the gates of the city and who thirst for the water. Dogs do not thirst but return to their vomit.

In scripture sheep remain sheep and goats remain goats. Swine remain swine and dogs remain dogs.

God redeems only His children and upon redeeming them they become His sons (Gal. 4).

blessings,

Roo

[didymus]

Aug 31, 2010 12:31:03 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Aug 31, 2010 12:01:58 GMT -5 @didymus said:

I have found a flaw in you logic, and I will point it out if you answer my question. I asked this question in another thread. You're not running away from it, are you?

Hi didymus,

I am not running away from your question. I posted the new thread and then went to run some errands. I have been studying the Bible a looooong time bro!

The elect are still sinners and need Christ's atonement sacrifice. Peter said that Christ was "delivered by the predeterminate counsel and foreknowledge of God." So I can turn the tables on you with a question of like kind: If God predetermined Christ's death, then why was it necessary for sinners to crucify Him?

Now point out my logical flaw regarding my conclusion that Preterism implies Calvinism. Pretty please...

Roo

Not so fast. You din't answer this one to my satisfaction yet. Are you saying, even though God had predestined some to have eternal life, Christ had to die for them?

[Allyn]

Aug 31, 2010 16:13:02 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Allyn said:

Roo,
You say this but how would you prove it?
Rev 22:17 says:
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Greetings Allyn,

One must be inside the gates to drink the water of life. Right? And "dogs" don't thirst for water do they? They return to their vomit. The dogs are not granted access into the gates of the city.

Allyn:
Those without the gates do not thirst for the water. They are "dogs" which prefer their vomit.

Allyn:
According to Paul I was an unredeemed child of God.

Please note the parts in bold lettering. Paul said that they were "children" but when Christ redeemed them they became "sons." Redeemed men do not become God's children at the point of their redemption. They already are God's children. They become God's "sons." Christ came to redeem the children of God and make them His sons. Jesus did not come to redeem the children of the devil.

Allyn:
No brother! My salvation was dependent upon God's grace alone and faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Allyn:
We're talking about the New Jerusalem which is spiritual. It came down from heaven as a fully completed structure with all its foundations and walls having been completed. God is not adding to the New Jerusalem (the Bride). It is a completed structure. God gives the "just" access into it and they alone are the thirsty who are invited to drink and be saved.

The rest are the "dogs" who may not enter. They are forever consigned to be without the city's gates. However.... We don't know who they are so we offer everyone the water of life to all men indiscriminately. But the Spirit offers discriminately to "whosoever will" which are those who have access into the city. They drink and become manifest to us as the "just."

Allyn:
Paul said that ALL have heard.

Allyn:

Is this not aplicable to all people in all generations?

Yes this is applicable in all new covenant generations but not applicable too all men indiscriminately. It is applicable to those in all generations who have access into the gates of the city and who thirst for the water. Dogs do not thirst but return to their vomit.

In scripture sheep remain sheep and goats remain goats. Swine remain swine and dogs remain dogs.

God redeems only His children and upon redeeming them they become His sons (Gal. 4).

blessings,

Roo

Roo, I am amazed at some of your answers. It is a bad time for me right now but I hope to respond later tonight.

[didymus]

I have no choice. Allyn is getting to close.

Roo, here is part of your OP:

Preterists correctly teach that the new earth of Revelation 21-22 is the covenantally renewed earth and refers to this present new covenant age. The New Jerusalem which descended to the new earth is therefore a present spiritual reality. Now the logic:

Sinners are KEPT OUT of the New Jerusalem which means that the "whosoever will" gospel invitation can go out only to those who are within the city's gates. See how simple it really is?

Point 1. Sinners are kept out of the New Jerusalem.
Point 2. Gospel invitation only sent to those in the city.

There's your flaw. What about the elect who are still in sin, not in the city. How will they receive the gospel invitation?

It makes no sense that the gospel invitation is only being sent out only to those are already saved, those only in the New Jerusalem. And that doesn't bode well for the elect of the future, like you and I. When we were born of our mothers, we did not go into the New Jerusalem when we were born, did we? Then, when did we receive the gospel invitation? I am assuming you claim to have received the gospel invitation. Then I must ask, when were you in the New Jerusalem to receive the gospel invitation? I know I was not there before entering the New Jerusalem through Christ.

[kangaroojack]

didymus said:

There's your flaw. What about the elect who are still in sin, not in the city. How will they receive the gospel invitation?

didymus,

You were a child of God before you were saved. You were a child that was in bondage under sin. Then Christ redeemed you so you would no longer be a child but become an adopted son.

1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

You were always God's child even when you were in your sins. Paul said that "even when we were children" Christ redeemed us to make us God's sons. Note that the child is the "heir" of the promises even in his unredeemed condition. "I say that the heir, as long as he is a child differs nothing from a slave. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. "

So you did not become an heir when you redeemed. You were already the child-heir. Christ redeemed you to make you an adopted son so you could be set free and take possession of your inheritance which is salvation.

didymus:

It makes no sense that the gospel invitation is only being sent out only to those are already saved, those only in the New Jerusalem.

I did not say that the gospel goes out to the saved. I said that the gospel goes out to those whom God deems "just." Only they are allowed to enter into the city and drink and be saved. They are not "just" in themselves. They are counted just by God. They must still come to the water and be saved.

In the new covenant age an unjust man cannot become a just man. Neither can a just man become an unjust man. But a just man can become saved.

Roo

[Allyn]

1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.


This is not about the physiology of a person but rather his Christian immaturity and his need for guidance

[didymus]

Roo said:

I did not say that the gospel goes out to the saved. I said that the gospel goes out to those whom God deems "just." Only they are allowed to enter into the city and drink and be saved. They are not "just" in themselves. They are counted just by God. They must still come to the water and be saved.

You said that sinners were kept out of the city. You said that that the gospel invitation went out only to those in the city. Isn't that what you said?

If there are no sinners in the city, who was in the city, if not the saved? If the gospel invitation went out only to those in the city, if sinners were not allowed in the city, then who received that message? Was the city empty?

Now you are confusing the issue. You are now saying "just" sinners are allowed in the city so they can drink and be saved.

This is the problem with Calvinism. Everytime the doctrine falters under examination, you have to re-invent the whole thing.

First, no sinners were allowed in the city. Now sinners whom God deemed as just were allowed in to drink.

There is no consistency with Calvinism, is there?

[MoGrace2U]

Yawn...burp...excuse me but eating baloney always makes me burp!

[Morris]

Aug 31, 2010 19:12:23 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

In the new covenant age an unjust man cannot become a just man. Neither can a just man become an unjust man. But a just man can become saved.

Roo

Hmm... Scripture doesn't support these notions, Roo. They must be derived from doctrines.

1 Peter 3:18
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit"

This says that Christ died for the unjust, and we know that it is only because Christ is just that we are now just. But before Christ is in us we were certainly unjust.

This verse must cause some problems then:
Matthew 9:13
"But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” "

That "righteous" means "just-ones". Jesus said here that He didn't come for the just, but for the unjust, that He may make them just. Jesus said in,
John 10:9
"I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

If Jesus said He came for the unjust, and that anyone can be saved, it cannot be said by us that Christ only saves the just.

Can a just man become unjust?
Hebrews 10:36-39
"For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
“ For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”
But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

You have need of endurance! Why? to receive the promise.
How? Live by faith, for in this we can do the will of God.
What happens if we don't endure? God has no pleasure in us and we draw back to perdition. Our soul will not be saved.
But be encouraged for we are enduring, we are living in faith, because we are believing, and this saves our soul.

Did not Jesus say this very thing when asked "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
John 6:29
"Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” "

[didymus]

Once again, Morris and I are on the same page. I was in my car today, and I was listening to a sermon, and the preacher quoted I Peter 3.18. I was going to write about it, but I see Morris already has. So, I'll just say - Ditto to everything Morris said.

[kangaroojack]

Aug 31, 2010 20:04:35 GMT -5 @didymus said:

Roo said:

I did not say that the gospel goes out to the saved. I said that the gospel goes out to those whom God deems "just." Only they are allowed to enter into the city and drink and be saved. They are not "just" in themselves. They are counted just by God. They must still come to the water and be saved.

You said that sinners were kept out of the city. You said that that the gospel invitation went out only to those in the city. Isn't that what you said?

If there are no sinners in the city, who was in the city, if not the saved? If the gospel invitation went out only to those in the city, if sinners were not allowed in the city, then who received that message? Was the city empty?

Now you are confusing the issue. You are now saying "just" sinners are allowed in the city so they can drink and be saved.

This is the problem with Calvinism. Everytime the doctrine falters under examination, you have to re-invent the whole thing.

First, no sinners were allowed in the city. Now sinners whom God deemed as just were allowed in to drink.

There is no consistency with Calvinism, is there?

Didymus,

I am not inconsistent. Your definitions are wrong. You are making the assumption that the word "just" implies "saved." But the word "just" does not equal "saved." Again, I did not say that the gospel goes out to the saved. I said that it goes out to the "just" and they take the water of life and become saved.

I debated this with Brian Simmons on the Preteristarchive board before it closed 3 0r 4 years ago. One person who was not a part of the discussion interjected and said, "I am no longer a Preterist." Why did he say that? He said it because he came to see that Preterism implies Calvinism. Then he chose to give up Preterism rather than to accept the Calvinism it implies.

Let's take a look at 22:11 which says that the righteous must remain righteous and that the unrighteous must remain unrighteous.

11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Note Preterist J. Stuart Russell's commentary on this verse:

So imminent is the end that it is intimated that now it is too late for any alteration in the state or character of men; such as they are so they must continue; 'He that is unjust, let him be unjust still." The Parousia J. Stuart Russell, p. 531

Futurist commentator Albert Barnes concurs that verse 11 indicates that there is no alteration in the character or condition of men:

This must refer to the scenes beyond the judgment, and must be intended to affirm an important truth in regard to the condition of men in the future state. It cannot refer to the condition of men on this side of the grave, for there is no fixed an unchangeable condition in this world.

...it was proper to declare, in the most solemn manner, that when these events were consummated, everything would be fixed and unchanging; that all who were then found to be righteous would remain so forever; and that none who were impentinent, impure, and wicked, would ever change in their character or condition. Barnes Notes on the New Testament: Revelation, p. 459

Thus we have a Preterist and a Futurist who both concur that 22:11 indicates that the character and condition of men is "fixed" and "unalterable" and "unchanging."

So if you are a Preterist you must consider that now in this age the "just" must remain what they are and the "unjust" must remain what they are. This is the divine work and decree!

So you err when you equate the word "just" with the word "saved" and I will prove it to you now. Verse 14 says that only those who wash their robes have a right to the tree of life and to enter in through the gates into the city:

14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Note that they must wear clean robes before they can eat of the tree of life and be saved. But if they enter into the city with clean robes, then they must be "righteous" because it says in chapter 19 that the "fine linen is the righteousness of the saints."

Yet they still must eat of the tree of life and be saved![/i] So they are just before they are saved. The unjust cannot become just. Their character and condition is unalterable. But the just will become saved.[/b]

You received the gospel invitation and got saved because you were already "just" in God's sight. An unjust man cannot become a just man in this age. But a just man can and necessarily will become saved. This does not violate the decree, "Let him that is unjust be unjust still."

When you believed the gospel it was made manifest that you were the just man you always had been and always will be.

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish."

Men do not become Christ's sheep when they get saved. They were already His sheep. They become found when they were previously lost.

You need to redefine things didymus.

Roo

[Allyn]

Preterism most certainly does not imply Calvinism and for several glaring reasons most of which being that the generations of men are forever and that God's quiver is never full.

[didymus]

Roo,

I find it very difficult to respond to you because you are inconsistent with established Calvinism. I never before encountered a Calvinist that taught that one can be just before they are saved. I alway thought that Calvinism taught that all mankind has been totally depraved since the fall. That the only way to become just is through Christ, and the only way for one to come to Christ is for God to give them a new heart, through His sovereign choice.

You come along and say they are justified before God gives them a new heart which leads men to Christ.

I don't know what you are teaching, but it is not Calvinism.

[kangaroojack]

Sept 1, 2010 13:18:57 GMT -5 Allyn said:

Preterism most certainly does not imply Calvinism and for several glaring reasons most of which being that the generations of men are forever and that God's quiver is never full.

Allyn,

Yes the generations of men are forever. And yes God's quiver is never full. How does this negate God's decree in 22:11 that the unjust must remain unjust and the just must remain just?

Jesus said that the wheat and the tares were to grow together until the end of the age and then be separated by the harvesters. Did a wheat stalk become a tare during that time? Did a tare become a wheat stalk? No! Each remained what it was until the harvesters separated them.

The wheat is in the barn (the New Jerusalem) and the tares were burned (outside the city's gates). The wheat (the just) come to the water of life which flows in the city, and they drink and become saved.

Preterism implies Calvinism. May I respectfully suggest that this truth is staring you in the face?


Roo

[didymus]

Sept 2, 2010 9:58:51 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Sept 1, 2010 13:18:57 GMT -5 Allyn said:

Preterism most certainly does not imply Calvinism and for several glaring reasons most of which being that the generations of men are forever and that God's quiver is never full.

Allyn,

Yes the generations of men are forever. And yes God's quiver is never full. How does this negate God's decree in 22:11 that the unjust must remain unjust and the just must remain just?

Jesus said that the wheat and the tares were to grow together until the end of the age and then be separated by the harvesters. Did a wheat stalk become a tare during that time? Did a tare become a wheat stalk? No! Each remained what it was until the harvesters separated them.

The wheat is in the barn (the New Jerusalem) and the tares were burned (outside the city's gates). The wheat (the just) come to the water of life which flows in the city, and they drink and become saved.

Preterism implies Calvinism. May I respectfully suggest that this truth is staring you in the face?


Roo

But that is not Calvinism. Calvinism teachs that we are all tares [totally depraved], until God gave them the ability to become wheat [saved], through Christ.

In this new teaching of yours, neither is it Calvinism, nor can you derive it from preterism.

Be blessed Roo,

- let's get together for tea sometime

[Allyn]

Sept 2, 2010 9:58:51 GMT -5 @kangaroojack said:

Sept 1, 2010 13:18:57 GMT -5 Allyn said:

Preterism most certainly does not imply Calvinism and for several glaring reasons most of which being that the generations of men are forever and that God's quiver is never full.

Allyn,

Yes the generations of men are forever. And yes God's quiver is never full. How does this negate God's decree in 22:11 that the unjust must remain unjust and the just must remain just?

Jesus said that the wheat and the tares were to grow together until the end of the age and then be separated by the harvesters. Did a wheat stalk become a tare during that time? Did a tare become a wheat stalk? No! Each remained what it was until the harvesters separated them.

The wheat is in the barn (the New Jerusalem) and the tares were burned (outside the city's gates). The wheat (the just) come to the water of life which flows in the city, and they drink and become saved.

Preterism implies Calvinism. May I respectfully suggest that this truth is staring you in the face?


Roo

Hi Roo,

It negates it in the fact that there will never be a day when one will accept Christ as Savior. There will never be one person who will be the last to do so. This alone does in Calvinism because according to you none outside can ever come in. This is not what the Scriptures teach. Instead it teaches that if you remain in your sins you cannot inherit eternal life. This includes everyone from Adam onward.

[kangaroojack]

didymus said:

I find it very difficult to respond to you because you are inconsistent with established Calvinism. I never before encountered a Calvinist that taught that one can be just before they are saved. I alway thought that Calvinism taught that all mankind has been totally depraved since the fall.

Greetings didymus,

I see that I have caused a little confusion here by not defining my terms clearly. The word "just" is used in a number of senses in the scripture. You are correct that established Calvinism teaches that a man cannot be "just" apart from being saved in the sense of being declared by God to be perfectly righteous in Christ. I whole heartedly concur. But in the sense of possessing some capacity for goodness a man may be "just" without being saved.

The unsaved "just" in Revelation 22 possess a capacity for goodness because God's seed is in them. So they wash their robes and enter into the city. They hear the Spirit and the Bride calling out "whosoever will" to them and they answer the invitation and become saved. But the unsaved "unjust" do not have God's seed in them. Only a man who has God's seed in him would "wash his robe" so he could enter the city and eat of the tree of life (22:14). The unsaved "unjust" are the "dogs" that are without the gates of the city (vs. 15). The dogs do not have the seed of God in them. They do not wash their robes and enter the city. They do not hear the "whosoever will" call because they are outside the gates. Even if they could hear the call they would prefer their vomit (2 Peter 2:22). They are "kept" for judgment (2 Peter 2: 9).



By the way, by the term "total depravity" Calvinists do not mean that the unsaved possess no capacity for goodness at all.

Calvinist R.C. Sproul writes:

The concept of total depravity is often confused with utter depravity. In Reformed theology total depravity refers to the idea that our whole humanity is fallen. That is, there is no part of me that has not been affected in some way by the Fall. Sin affects my will, my heart, my mind, and my body.

Total depravity is not utter depravity. Utter depravity would mean that that we all are as sinful as we possibly could be. We know that this is not the case. Chosen by God, R.C. Sproul, p. 103-104

Now what about the decree of God stated in 22:11?

11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Roo

[Morris]

Hi Roo. You haven't addressed the verses in my previous post yet. Those contradict what you are saying.

[kangaroojack]

Sept 2, 2010 12:49:15 GMT -5 Morris said:

Hi Roo. You haven't addressed the verses in my previous post yet. Those contradict what you are saying.

Morris,

I did not see your post. I will find it and reply.

Roo

[kangaroojack]

Morris on 1 Peter 3:8:

This says that Christ died for the unjust, and we know that it is only because Christ is just that we are now just. But before Christ is in us we were certainly unjust.

Peter did not say that Christ suffered for ALL the unjust. He said that Christ suffered for the unjust that He might bring "US" (the sheep) back to God, 2:25. He said that the purpose for His dying was to bring "US" the sheep and not THEM the goats to God. In 4:1 it says that He suffered specifically for "US" (the sheep, 2:25). In 2 Peter 2 he said that the non-sheep or the 'swine' and the 'dogs' are "KEPT" for judgment (2:9).

Morris:

But before Christ is in us we were certainly unjust.

See my explanation of the word "just" in my post to didymus today.

Morris:

This verse must cause some problems then:
Matthew 9:13
"But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” "

See my post to didymus earlier today about the use of "just" in scripture.

Morris:

"I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

Only the sheep can go in and out and find pasture. Christ did not die to save the goats of Israel. Jesus said that He came to seek and to save the lost SHEEP of the House of Israel. This does not include goats.

Morris:

Can a just man become unjust?
Hebrews 10:36-39
"For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
“ For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”
But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."


You have need of endurance! Why? to receive the promise.
How? Live by faith, for in this we can do the will of God.
What happens if we don't endure? God has no pleasure in us and we draw back to perdition. Our soul will not be saved.
But be encouraged for we are enduring, we are living in faith, because we are believing, and this saves our soul.

Old covenant Morris! In the new covenant God says, "I will rememeber their sins NO MORE!" They were still under the old covenant when salvation by faith plus works was still in force. Butalvation is by faith alone now!

Morris:

Did not Jesus say this very thing when asked "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
John 6:29
"Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” "

Yeah! Faith is the work of God!


Now what about the decree of God in Revelation 22:11?

11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev. 22:11)

The word "still" which I put in bold lettering means "PERMANENT character" (Vine's Expository Dictionary).

The futursists have explained this as the permanent condition of men after the so called future judgment and after the so called destruction of the physical earth. Thus they can avoid the Calvinist implications.

But the Preterists must accept the Calvinism that is implied because they correctly teach that Revelation 21-22 is indicative of post ad70 until now and forever. For the condition of ALL men is "permanent" (Vine) and "fixed" (Russell) and "unchanging" (Barnes) no matter where you fall eschatologically.

Roo

[Morris]

Roo, if you rewrite what the verses say, then yes, they support you. Unfortunately, your responses basically amounted to 'God didn't say that, He meant...'.

Jesus said "anyone", you said "sheep only".

Peter said "Christ died for the unjust", you said "Christ didn't die for the unjust".

The author of Hebrews said "faith alone", you said "faith plus works".

Your doctrines are overriding plain scripture instead of being formed by them.

[kangaroojack]

Sept 2, 2010 14:56:14 GMT -5 Morris said:

Roo, if you rewrite what the verses say, then yes, they support you. Unfortunately, your responses basically amounted to 'God didn't say that, He meant...'.

Jesus said "anyone", you said "sheep only".

Peter said "Christ died for the unjust", you said "Christ didn't die for the unjust".

The author of Hebrews said "faith alone", you said "faith plus works".

Your doctrines are overriding plain scripture instead of being formed by them.

Morris,

You say that Jesus said "all" and not just His sheep only. Where do you get this idea? Jesus explicitly said that He came to seek and to save "the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Again He said, "I am sent not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Now here is the clincher: Jesus said, "The good shepherd gives his life for the SHEEP." He gave his life for His sheep only! Again He said, "My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow Me. And I give unto THEM eternal life and THEY shall never perish." Then He added, "Other sheep I have which are not of this fold. THEM also I must bring and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." The "other" sheep would be the gentiles which were to be brought in later on. But He came to give eternal life only to His SHEEP and there is no denying it.

And what do you do with Matthew 25 where Jesus said that He would separate the sheep from the goats? He said that the sheep would go into everlasting life and the goats would go into everlasting punishment. It is obvious from this that Jesus did not come to save the goats of Israel. He came to save His sheep and then to separate them from the goats.

Men do not become His sheep when He saves them. They become His found sheep.

Again, where do you get the idea that Jesus said that He came to save all men? He came to save all sheep. He said that if a man has 100 sheep and one is missing he will leave the 99 and bring the one stray sheep back. So Christ indeed came to save all but not in the sense you say. He came to save ALL His sheep. He plainly and repeatedly said so!

Morris:

The author of Hebrews said "faith alone", you said "faith plus works".

Where did the author to the Hebrews say "faith alone?" Those Hebrew christians were still under the old covenant which contained the threat of damnation. James said that faith without works is dead alone. James threatened condemnation to anyone who did not have works (5:12).

James said this when they were still under the old covenant. James was the very first epistle written and it says nothing about the death of Christ. Why was an apostle who walked with Jesus totally silent about the death of His Lord? I'll tell you why. James said nothing about Christ's death because God had not yet revealed new covenant truth to His people. James did not know what the death of Christ meant. And until God revealed new covenant truth and what Christ's death meant they had to live according to the old covenant principles.

God revealed the meaning of Christ's death only to Paul who came nearly three decades later. And Paul said that it was revealed to him that salvation is now by faith APART from the works of the law (Romans 3:21).

By the time ad70 rolled around and the Mosaic system was totally gone God had brought His people fully into the new covenant age and principles. At that time "all things that offend" were rooted out of the kingdom. The wheat and the tares were separated leaving only the wheat. This is also the separation of the sheep and the goats.

Christ continues to save only His sheep in this age like He did before. The only difference is that the goats dwell no more with us. They are the "dogs" that are outside the gates of the city. Peter said that these dogs "return to thier own vomit" after saying that they are "kept" for judgment. Wow! The sheep are kept for salvation but the dogs are kept for judgment. Fall down before Him for saving you!

Revelation says that the condition of men in this age is permanent.

Rev. 22:11

11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

W.E. Vine says that the word "still" means "permanent condition." This is God's decree!

Roo

[didymus]

Revelation 22.11, NKJV:

He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.

In a brief study, it seems the angel is telling John, "He who is unjust, let him be unjust..." "Let him be." What does that phrase indicate? The phrase is used four times. It seems that the angel was telling John to let the unjust be unjust, let the filthy be filthy, let the righteous be righteous, and let the holy be holy.

It seems that John was not to take any action to make any changes to the everlasting condition of those four groups.

But, how does that apply to our condition since the end of the age?

maybe some Birch Beer

[didymus]

Roo said:

But in the sense of possessing some capacity for goodness a man may be "just" without being saved.

That also goes against established Calvinism. "Totally depraved" means just that. Man is totally depraved and has no ability or capacity to do good.

Do I have to give you the Scriptures that Calvinists prove totally depravity, or do you already know them?

this Birch Beer hits the spot