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Post by dufrdan on Aug 21, 2010 16:04:14 GMT -5
Jesus told the Apostles in John 14,16 that he would be away for "a little while" during which absence the Holy Spirit would do his thing.
My initial "take" is that the "little while" corresponds with the 40-years between Pentecost and parousia in 70.
Is it possible that the HS functioned ONLY during those 40 years? Please note that in the New Jerusalem (Rev 21,22) there is NO HS present.
Your thoughts, please.
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Post by Once4all on Aug 21, 2010 19:00:36 GMT -5
Hey, Dan, nice to see you posting here again!
Based on just a casual pondering of your post, I think that seems very likely. The interpretations of the supposed gifts and manifestations of the Spirit are all over the map today, with different groups trying to demonstrate that they have the Spirit in their own unique ways. They are trying to force the presence of something that simply hasn't been active for almost 2000 years. Imaginations run wild.
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Post by didymus on Aug 21, 2010 22:21:23 GMT -5
Hi Dan, The Spirit is mentioned twice in Rev. 21&22. 21.10, when John was carried away in the Spirit, and he was shown the "great city." There is no indication here that the Spirit was in the great city. Then in 22.17, where the Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Again, no indication that is in the great city. This seems to be the invitation to come into the great city. This might be the Spirit led church to as the church was preaching the gospel, inviting people to come to Christ, thus entering the great city. That certainly can refer to the 40 years you mentioned. But, that would just be speculation on my part, and I would not make a doctrine out of it. Your take might be correct, but I see way to establish that for sure.  - peppermint and green |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 23, 2010 5:50:09 GMT -5
Hey, Dan, nice to see you posting here again! Based on just a casual pondering of your post, I think that seems very likely. The interpretations of the supposed gifts and manifestations of the Spirit are all over the map today, with different groups trying to demonstrate that they have the Spirit in their own unique ways. They are trying to force the presence of something that simply hasn't been active for almost 2000 years. Imaginations run wild. Good morning Bev. Maybe I was dreaming this but did you state somewhere recently that the Holy Spirit isn't active today within the church? I swear I read this the other day from you on this forum, but right now I can't find the thread it was in. Please correct me if I'm wrong. And I'm not talking about the gifts you mentioned above. If I'm right, could you please point me to any articles or studies on this topic from a preterist perspective. Thanks Steve |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 23, 2010 9:43:47 GMT -5
This phrase occurs 11 times in 8 verses in John and each time it is a reference to Jesus going away to death at the cross.
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Post by Once4all on Aug 23, 2010 10:18:16 GMT -5
Hey, Dan, nice to see you posting here again! Based on just a casual pondering of your post, I think that seems very likely. The interpretations of the supposed gifts and manifestations of the Spirit are all over the map today, with different groups trying to demonstrate that they have the Spirit in their own unique ways. They are trying to force the presence of something that simply hasn't been active for almost 2000 years. Imaginations run wild. Good morning Bev. Maybe I was dreaming this but did you state somewhere recently that the Holy Spirit isn't active today within the church? I swear I read this the other day from you on this forum, but right now I can't find the thread it was in. Please correct me if I'm wrong. And I'm not talking about the gifts you mentioned above. If I'm right, could you please point me to any articles or studies on this topic from a preterist perspective. Thanks Steve Good morning, Steve. My view of the Holy Spirit is not entirely solidified and, I admit, might even fluctuate a little from post-to-post. As you know, I don't believe the HS is a "person of God." Right now, having just awakened and sipping a bit of coffee, my view would be that a holy spirit is what God gives us when we are baptized and have our past sins forgiven. It is that inner desire to please God in all that we do. If we can continue to nurture it, continue to "walk in the spirit," our minds are transformed and we conform to the image of Christ. But if we forget God's forgiveness and gift and start once again to walk "in the flesh," then we risk extinguishing completely that "spark of holiness" that was given to us. So, in that respect, "Holy Spirit" is active in the church today. But I didn't answer your question at all, did I? I can't think of anything I've read off-hand that addresses an inactivity of the HS in the context of preterism. But if such exists, Don Preston might be a good starting point. (I'm just guessing because of his Church of Christ background.) Sorry if I've completely muddled what you wanted to know. Maybe after a second cuppa, a light will turn on and I'll come back to provide a clearer answer. |
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Post by Morris on Aug 23, 2010 14:23:47 GMT -5
I can agree with what Bev wrote above. I've searched through the NT and it speaks of the spirit of Christ in us, the spirit of God in us, and the Holy Spirit in us; these are all the Spirit of God, IMO, not the Spirits of God.
But as for "a little while" I do believe that Jesus was talking about His up coming crucifixion. I also believe that when He spoke "and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father", He was referring to the Holy Spirit coming, that is His Spirit, the Spirit of God.
It is spoken of when He said "You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ " Notice too that the Holy Spirit was sent in Jesus' name, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name".
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Post by stephenpatrick on Aug 23, 2010 17:08:30 GMT -5
Good morning Bev. Maybe I was dreaming this but did you state somewhere recently that the Holy Spirit isn't active today within the church? I swear I read this the other day from you on this forum, but right now I can't find the thread it was in. Please correct me if I'm wrong. And I'm not talking about the gifts you mentioned above. If I'm right, could you please point me to any articles or studies on this topic from a preterist perspective. Thanks Steve Good morning, Steve. My view of the Holy Spirit is not entirely solidified and, I admit, might even fluctuate a little from post-to-post. As you know, I don't believe the HS is a "person of God." Right now, having just awakened and sipping a bit of coffee, my view would be that a holy spirit is what God gives us when we are baptized and have our past sins forgiven. It is that inner desire to please God in all that we do. If we can continue to nurture it, continue to "walk in the spirit," our minds are transformed and we conform to the image of Christ. But if we forget God's forgiveness and gift and start once again to walk "in the flesh," then we risk extinguishing completely that "spark of holiness" that was given to us. So, in that respect, "Holy Spirit" is active in the church today. But I didn't answer your question at all, did I? I can't think of anything I've read off-hand that addresses an inactivity of the HS in the context of preterism. But if such exists, Don Preston might be a good starting point. (I'm just guessing because of his Church of Christ background.) Sorry if I've completely muddled what you wanted to know. Maybe after a second cuppa, a light will turn on and I'll come back to provide a clearer answer. Thanks Bev. |
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Post by dufrdan on Aug 24, 2010 7:32:31 GMT -5
To restate my position:
Jesus told the Apostles that in a little while he would be absent, which absence was necessary if the Holy Spirit was to come as a substitute and comfort/teach them. A little while later he would return; negating any need for a substitute. I believe that the little while of his absence corresponds to the 40 years between the ascension and the parousia in AD70.
Yes, I believe that the Holy Spirit accomplished his work and is no longer a manifestation of God. God and the Son only are seen in the New Jerusalem along with the saints. Since we are now walking the streets of gold in the light of the throne, there is no need for a "go between" as the HS was during the last days.
Dan
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Post by dufrdan on Aug 24, 2010 7:34:54 GMT -5
PS: We all need to keep in mind that the NT was written for those Christians living in the last days. We must filter all commands/examples/conditions of those days/writings thru the parousia and arrival of the New Jerusalem.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 24, 2010 11:02:14 GMT -5
If the Spirit of Christ is not dwelling in you - then how will you be kept alive by the same power of God that was in Him by the Spirit that raised Him up? There is no immortality of the soul apart from the life of Christ.
Whereas in those days the manifestation of the Spirit in mighty signs and wonders was given for a particular purpose and as a witness according to the scriptures which prophecied these things. That such things which Christ exampled in the earth were to continue after His glorification so the manifestation of the power of the Spirit that was in Him could be given to the apostles to show them the things Christ had received which He would then share with them. The apostles were thus like the prophets of God to the people as Christ worked thru them in the earth.
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Post by dufrdan on Aug 24, 2010 15:36:45 GMT -5
I, living in the New Jerusalem, rest in the comfort of receiving from God what the HS provided the end time disciples (no miracles/signs/wonders).
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 24, 2010 19:39:32 GMT -5
I agree. It was the Jews who required a sign, and signs they were given!
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Post by mellontes on Aug 24, 2010 20:04:37 GMT -5
Me agree too.
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