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Post by Once4all on Aug 11, 2010 14:20:43 GMT -5
Someone mentioned the "filthy rags" text. Another Calvinist misconception.
Isaiah 64:5-7
5 You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways
Behold, You were angry, for we sinned,
We continued in them a long time;
And shall we be saved?
6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
7 There is no one who calls on Your name,
Who arouses himself to take hold of You;
For You have hidden Your face from us
And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
Let's look at Romans 3:11-12 and Psalm 14:1-3 while we're at it:
Romans 3:11-12
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
Psalm 14:1-3
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God"
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
All of the blue (teal) verses are used out of context by Calvinists. Note the context of each one:
Isaiah 64 - Those who continued in sin; those who do not call on God's name.
Romans 3 - Those who do not seek God.
Psalm 14 - Those fools who say there is no God.
Which of those categories do you fall into? Or have you been cleansed by the blood of Christ and pursue after righteousness as a child of God? Which is it? You can't serve two masters.
In my opinion, based on the context of these verses, they apply to people who have either turned away from God or who are the enemies of God. They do not apply to Christians who are continually humbling themselves before God. All of our deeds were as filthy rags prior to being saved, but not afterward if we remain in Christ.
I think Reformed Christianity deprives believers of their victory in Christ by convincing them that their deeds are still worthless, filthy rags. They still claim to be the worst of sinners; they still claim to be depraved.
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Post by didymus on Aug 11, 2010 16:55:02 GMT -5
I refer to Isaiah 64.6 Notice it says our " righteousnesses" are like filthy rags. It does not say our sinfulnesses, or our wickednesses, are as filthy rags. That is a given. Righteousness is "doing what is right." In Isaiah 64, I see a comparison of those who remember God and His ways, vs. 5, and those who do what is right while not remembering God and His ways. The righteousness of those who do not remember God and His ways are like filthy rags. We see the same concept in I Corinthians 13.1-3. God is love, and what we do without love profits nothing. Not that we incapable of doing good from a human perspective, but without love what is it worth? Without love, without God, the good that we do could be based more on selfish motives. Perhaps we want people to see how good we are. Or, perhaps there is some monetary motive. Whatever good that we do, without the love we have because we are in Christ, and Christ is in us, is as filthy rags. That has nothing at all to do with Calvinism. Calvinists say we are totally incapable of doing good. This is not at all what I am saying. We are capable of doing good, and even without selfish motives, although that is seldom the case if the love of God is not in us, and that is only true if Christ is in us. As Christians, what we do is not on our own, it is through Christ. Christianity is a Christ-centered religion. As Christians, Christ is at the center of all the right things that we do.  - yes, it's tea this time |
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Post by Once4all on Aug 11, 2010 23:51:03 GMT -5
... God is love, and what we do without love profits nothing. Not that we incapable of doing good from a human perspective, but without love what is it worth? Without love, without God, the good that we do could be based more on selfish motives. Perhaps we want people to see how good we are. Or, perhaps there is some monetary motive. Whatever good that we do, without the love we have because we are in Christ, and Christ is in us, is as filthy rags. That has nothing at all to do with Calvinism. Calvinists say we are totally incapable of doing good. This is not at all what I am saying. We are capable of doing good, and even without selfish motives, although that is seldom the case if the love of God is not in us, and that is only true if Christ is in us. As Christians, what we do is not on our own, it is through Christ. Christianity is a Christ-centered religion. As Christians, Christ is at the center of all the right things that we do. - yes, it's tea this time I agree, Tom! |
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Post by Allyn on Aug 12, 2010 7:30:16 GMT -5
You have my vote, Tom
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Post by Morris on Aug 12, 2010 8:56:40 GMT -5
Indeed, excellent post Tom!
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 12, 2010 22:01:20 GMT -5
I think that unless Christ Himself is at work, there is nothing we can do that will please God. What pleases Him is what He creates or brings forth. And that is why we need to be vessels for His use, not our own purposes. Our goodness matters not a whit, it is His goodness that brings Him glory. If He does that thru us, we are blessed.
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Post by didymus on Aug 13, 2010 6:42:44 GMT -5
I think that unless Christ Himself is at work, there is nothing we can do that will please God. What pleases Him is what He creates or brings forth. And that is why we need to be vessels for His use, not our own purposes. Our goodness matters not a whit, it is His goodness that brings Him glory. If He does that thru us, we are blessed. I am sorry, but I believe our goodness does matter, as we do make a conscious choice to serve Him or not. There are many Scripture that talk about our choices. Scriptures that warn us not to sin. Scriptures that tell us to do good to one another. When we are in Christ, we may lose our self-ownership, and we become slaves of Christ, but that does not make us zombies with no will of our own. We are told to "work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling." How can we do that with out making a conscious choice to do so? - it's coffee this time. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Aug 13, 2010 10:43:57 GMT -5
By submitting first. Men do lots of things that seem good in their own eyes because they do not submit to what God declares. If our choices are not formed because we agree with the word of God, they don't mean much except to us.
How else could you find a church that patterned itself after the old priesthood under the rule of Nicolaitains/ Popes? Seems pretty obvious that such a system was an abomination to God else He wouldn't have destroyed it - but men built another because it seemed good to them! Calvin too embraced using the power of the state for the church - another abomination that Israel always was paying for when she did the same. If men trusted & believed God, they would choose the things He loves instead.
We keep hearing about men who think they can sin impudently and God will not see - til their sin is exposed for all to see. Yet they don't see themselves as being disqualified from the very pulpits in which they rule. And the people love to have it so...
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Post by Morris on Aug 13, 2010 11:20:42 GMT -5
There is definitely truth here; the good we do is done when we have submitted our lives and our desires to God. Our choices matter within the context of our submission. This is what the concept of being in the kingdom and having Christ as our Lord is all about.
In another thread I discussed the freedom we have in Christ; not being bound to a law of regulations. This liberty gives us choices to make, within our submission to God, so that these choices bring glory to Him.
1 Corinthians 10:31
"Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."
Is this important?
Acts 12:23
"Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died."
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Post by anudejuxa on Apr 22, 2019 21:22:09 GMT -5
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Post by ocaqocixe on Apr 22, 2019 23:56:28 GMT -5
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Post by Ellisothe on Feb 21, 2020 16:27:31 GMT -5
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