The Cross of Christ and Preterism

[didymus]

This has been something that has been on my mind lately. It wondered me if some parts of preterism diminishes the accomplishments of Christ on the cross. Let me explain.

First, the Old Covenant came to an end at the cross of Christ, having been nailed to the cross. Ephesians 2.14-16, Colossians 2.14.

Second, the New Testament came in force at the cross, because Jesus, the testator, has died. Hebrews 9.16-17.

Third, when one is in Christ, ALL things become new. II Corinthians 5.17.

So, at the cross, the Old Covenant, with all it's rules and regulations and prophecies came to an end. At the cross, the New Testament came in force because of the death of the testator. But, Jesus raised from the dead so we who are in Christ have also been raised into new life. Could this be considered the resurrection of the saints?

In Christ ALL things become new. New life, new heavens, new earth. Those not in Christ are still in bondage to old things, such as the law, which is dead, and therefore they are also dead in their sins and trespasses.

For some time now, I have wrestled with the idea of all things being fulfilled in 70AD, and certainly the last judgement of Israel came to fruition in 70AD, but even that was finished at the cross. It was just a matter of time before that judgement was carried out. But, even the apostles were in the new kingdom, were they not? And did they not talk about the kingdom as already being present? All those in Christ are in the new kingdom, because all things become new.

Jesus became the author and finisher of our faith because of His work on the cross, not because of what happened in 70AD.

I am sure these are things that many already know. But few have put them together. It is because of the cross that all things become new.

Am I wrong here? Help me out, please.

- perhaps over a cup of tea

[Morris]

You may not expect this... but I agree fully and 100% !

This is my biggest 'beef', if you will, with preterism. It isn't all the other things that others generally point out, but rather the emphasis of the judgment of Jerusalem over the work of the cross(/resurrection); the emphasis of covenants over what they point to (and to Whom).

The more I study and discuss things the more I realize that it all comes back to Jesus. The whole purpose of the Bible is Jesus and the work that God purposed through His Christ. Even the book of Revelation, regardless of which of the many interpretations one subscribes to, is called "The Revelation of Jesus Christ". I often forget that important detail myself.

[MoGrace2U]

I have a book by RC Sproul where he attempts to explain the Reformed view of the justice and mercy of God. He used circles in a diagram to depict how he sees that justice is one circle and injustice (not-justice) is the other circle and then puts mercy in the 2nd one! He would have had it more correct if he could see that the two circles overlap and put mercy there because the holy God's mercy is according to His justice.

The judgment of God is just as important as the grace of God that is merciful to His own. And they often are seen in the OT hand in hand as God delivers His people and works judgment on His enemies. That this took place over a 40 yr span of time is because God is long suffering and not willing that any should perish - though He blinded them to bring about the cross; He sends the gospel to gather them to Christ, before sending judgment on the others.

If the cross were not first, then how could they be gathered with the hearing of that gospel? All the judgment of 70AD shows us is that all these things have been accomplished thru the signs which reveal it. The cross was given to Israel as a sign which they did not understand yet fulfilled it in their own unbelief. How interesting is it that the signs of 70AD have not been believed to reveal what Christ has accomplished in raising the dead as He poured out wrath on the others?

And so the book of Revelation remains a mystery to them because of it. It is their own unbelief that has the part-prets and futurists looking for an earthly kingdom and the restoration of this earthly life, when their gospel hope is HEAVEN and their presence in the glory of God before His throne. "Heaven is My throne...earth is My footstool" So how did it get turned into a 'literal' hope of heaven on earth? When we have that already thru access to the spiritual kingdom of God that is here.

It is because they prefer to walk by sight rather than faith...and will not believe what they cannot see.

[Once4all]

Aug 8, 2010 23:41:42 GMT -5 @didymus said:

...

So, at the cross, the Old Covenant, with all it's rules and regulations and prophecies came to an end. At the cross, the New Testament came in force because of the death of the testator. But, Jesus raised from the dead so we who are in Christ have also been raised into new life. Could this be considered the resurrection of the saints? ...

The sermon yesterday was on baptism. Our preacher, who is not a preterist, believes that the "first resurrection" is when we are baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. While he was preaching, I was listening with one ear while searching scripture.

It's interesting that Romans 6:6 equates our baptism with the death of our "old man," wording it as when we were "crucified with" Christ.

Galatians 2:20a says "I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me."

Paul doesn't actually mention baptism until Galatians 3:27, but the words of Galatians 2:20 compared to Romans 6:3-7 indicate that Paul was speaking of his baptism when he said that he had been crucified with Christ in Galatians 2:20.

Romans 6:3-7 NASB
(3) Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

(4) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

(5) For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

(6) knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
(7) for he who has died is freed from sin.

In Colossians 2:12, Paul uses resurrection language in association with baptism:

Colossians 2:12 NASB
(12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

The "through faith in the working of God" refers, I believe, to our belief that God raised Jesus from the dead. In other words, our belief in the Gospel. If we believe the Gospel when we are baptized (in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ), then it is through (because of) that faith that God also resurrects us from the dead during our baptism.

Also remember that Jesus referred to his death as a baptism (Mark 10:38-39), providing the link to what Paul writes of, above.

What happened to Jesus physically would be applied to us spiritually through baptism.

[didymus]

Actually, you are right, Morris. I wasn't expecting that response.

Then I have to try this on you too. I believe that the accomplishments at the cross are perpetual. The cross is the focal point of history. It divides people. Through the cross some are saved, the rest are still under judgment. The same salvation and the same judgment as 2000 years ago. We are under the same covenant that began at the cross. All that was provided by the cross are still in effect today. That is why, I believe, that Paul said, "I preach Christ crucified." He understood the perpetual nature of the cross. And that includes the resurrection of the saints. Because of the resurrection of Christ, when we are in Christ, we become a new creature, we are raised to newness of life. And that is all because of the cross.

The return of of Christ in 70 AD really didn't accomplish anything that wasn't accomplished already at the cross. It's all a part of what happened at the cross. Without the cross, none of it could have happened.

Is this making sense, Morris?

- tomatoe juice

[Morris]

Good posts, folks. Especially Bev's - just wonderful!

Didy asked "Is this making sense, Morris?"

It is, but I would personally be inclined to say that what you say "the perpetual nature of the cross" I'd call "the permanent nature of the cross". But I get what you're saying.

Bev shows some wonderful scripture here regarding baptism. People may not agree with my on what I'm about to say but that's alright. Paul wrote that "he who has died is freed from sin" and then shorty after that "you are not under law but under grace". And a few chapters prior to these he wrote "for where there is no law there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15).

Now, here's something a little mind-blowing for me; I cannot sin because there is no law to break. (With everything there are two sides to this coin, but bear with me a moment).

Has anyone here ever sped on the autobahn? The answer should be no simply because there is no speed limit. You can go fast but you can't go over the limit. We can go too fast in regards to safety but not too fast in regards to the law.

Yet, it is possible for me to do something 'wrong' and so isn't that 'sinning'? Yes. However, "sin is not imputed when there is no law" (Romans 5:13). If I am in Christ, that sin is not imputed to me, and in a complete undeserving reversal, Christ has imputed to me the righteousness of God! "For apart from the law sin was dead". Therefore, sin cannot reign in me. This is the grace of God!

Galatians 2:20 was pointed out by Bev but note the verse before it, "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God". There is a connection here between being dead to sin, dead to the law, and having died with Christ.

See, we have been made righteous by God, right?
2 Corinthians 5:21
"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
So if that be the case, guess what? The law is not made for us!
1 Timothy 1:9
"knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate...".

Well I could just go on and on so I better stop now.

[Once4all]

Sheldon, I am pleased that you thought so much of my post. Thank you! Sadly, I am not in full agreement with your post. At least not if you are saying what I think you are saying. I'm just going to concentrate on the last two verses you quoted because I'm trying to do six things at once, and those two verses are all I can juggle. ;-)

See, we have been made righteous by God, right?
2 Corinthians 5:21
"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
So if that be the case, guess what? The law is not made for us!
1 Timothy 1:9
"knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate...".

1 John 3:3-10 NASB
(3) And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
(4) Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
(5) You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
(6) No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
(7) Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
(8) the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
(9) No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(10) By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

My impression, Sheldon, is that you were implying that Christians cannot sin no matter what they actually do; that even if they commit sin, they are not sinning. I cannot disagree more with that position.

We, 21st century Christians, were never under the Law, but we are under the law of Christ. Christ is about loving one another and about obedience to God. "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes"-Romans 10:4. Christians don't gain righteousness by following the Law, but by following Christ, who was a living example to us of the righteousness of God. Sin (the acts of it, even if you don't want to call it "sin") will still make you an outsider to the kingdom of God (Rev 22:15).

When we are baptized, God wipes our slate clean of past sins and gives us of His Spirit that we may follow Christ in righteousness. We are now in covenant with God. But it is up to each individual to remain in that covenant, to nurture the gift of a clean conscience given to us. We are not without responsibility. As Adam and Eve were banished from the garden for breaking covenant, so we can be banished from the kingdom.

That's my opinion.

Bev

[didymus]

Ah, but we are under law, Morris. We are under the law of Christ. See Galatians 6.1-3.

[Morris]

Oh, I hear you folks. That's why I said, as "With everything there are two sides to this coin", and I did not go into that other side at all (and apparently didn't again).

But the fact of the matter is, we are as pure as Christ when we are in Christ. As was quoted, "everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure". We are pure, not because of anything we've done or are doing. We are pure because He is pure, that is how we purify ourselves, by entering into Christ.

How can we do anything that is good? Scripture says there is no good in me. I can do something that seems good but it is really only relative.
Luke 18:19
"So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God."
Luke 11:13
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

Anyone that thinks that the good they do is significant enough to justify themselves before God is mistaken, "As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10). Breaking any point in the law makes you guilty of breaking the entire thing, and death is the sentence. If you lie, you are guilty of murder, taking the Lord's name in vain, idolatry, and every other commandment.
James 2:10
"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all."

Romans 3:19
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

"Guilty" here means 'under sentence'. Do you realize that what the law does is show us our guilt and places us under sentence? That sentence must be executed. And it is. Those of us who believe in the gospel have that sentence carried out on us; we die, are buried in Christ, and are raised again, so that it isn't us that lives, but Christ that lives in us. This is how God can say we are now "innocent", not merely forgiven, but as not having committed the offense at all.

Now that we are gone and the new man has been created, we are a fresh slate without sin and not under the old law. Now we are under the law of Christ where righteousness prevails, and where righteous dwells there can be no consciousness of sin.

Hebrews 10:1,2
"For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins."

Being conscience of sin, by very definition, brings guilt. Adam and Eve had no consciousness of sin and therefore felt no guilt. When in Christ that is the reality, even though we often fight against this in our mind as something we cannot accept because we did nothing to deserve it.

Here's an interesting thought;
1 Corinthians 8:12
"But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ"
Why is this a sin against Christ? I believe it is because you are putting guilt and a consciousness of sin in a person whom Christ has made innocent and not guilty.

I also see this in Paul's statement here;
Romans 7:25
"So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

I know people disagree with me but serving God is through love "with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength" (Mark 12:30). (Jesus seems to have added 'mind' here compared to Deuteronomy chapter 6). It isn't in the things that we serve God but rather in what we are that serves God. This is why works are a sign of our faith, because if we are something through this faith, our being will result in fruit. The fruit comes from God and is shown through us.

1 Corinthians 3:9
"For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building"
Philippians 2:13
"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

Everything comes back to God for His glory and pleasure.

[Once4all]

I wish I had more time than I do today to address this!

Aug 10, 2010 11:00:42 GMT -5 Morris said:

Oh, I hear you folks. That's why I said, as "With everything there are two sides to this coin", and I did not go into that other side at all (and apparently didn't again).

But the fact of the matter is, we are as pure as Christ when we are in Christ. As was quoted, "everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure". We are pure, not because of anything we've done or are doing. We are pure because He is pure, that is how we purify ourselves, by entering into Christ.

No, I don't see it that way. "Purifies himself" means exactly what it says... you purify yourself. This verb translated "purifies" (hagnizo) is in the active voice, indicating that the subject is the doer or performer of the action. "Everyone ... purifies himself." Our aim is to purify ourselves "just as He is pure." We are to become like Christ.

Aug 10, 2010 11:00:42 GMT -5 Morris said:

How can we do anything that is good? Scripture says there is no good in me. I can do something that seems good but it is really only relative.

Does believing in God and being in Christ have no effect on you? Is there still no good in you? I hope you don't believe that.

Aug 10, 2010 11:00:42 GMT -5 Morris said:

Luke 18:19
"So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God."

Yes, in the purest sense, that is very true.

Aug 10, 2010 11:00:42 GMT -5 Morris said:

Anyone that thinks that the good they do is significant enough to justify themselves before God is mistaken, "As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10).

The context of that quote from the OT is referring to those who do not seek after God.

Psalms 14:1-2 NASB
(1) For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
(2) The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.
(3) They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

If you are still applying this to yourself, then have you turned aside from God? Have you once again become corrupt? Are you a son of man or a son of God?

This is a Calvinist error. They use this verse to prove the false concept of total depravity.

Aug 10, 2010 11:00:42 GMT -5 Morris said:

Breaking any point in the law makes you guilty of breaking the entire thing, and death is the sentence. If you lie, you are guilty of murder, taking the Lord's name in vain, idolatry, and every other commandment.
James 2:10
"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all."

Yes, "whoever keeps the whole law"; i.e., those who still place themselves under the whole law.

Aug 10, 2010 11:00:42 GMT -5 Morris said:

Romans 3:19
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

"Guilty" here means 'under sentence'. Do you realize that what the law does is show us our guilt and places us under sentence? That sentence must be executed. And it is. Those of us who believe in the gospel have that sentence carried out on us; we die, are buried in Christ, and are raised again, so that it isn't us that lives, but Christ that lives in us. This is how God can say we are now "innocent", not merely forgiven, but as not having committed the offense at all.

Now that we are gone and the new man has been created, we are a fresh slate without sin and not under the old law. Now we are under the law of Christ where righteousness prevails, and where righteous dwells there can be no consciousness of sin.

Hebrews 10:1,2
"For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins."

Being conscience of sin, by very definition, brings guilt. Adam and Eve had no consciousness of sin and therefore felt no guilt. When in Christ that is the reality, even though we often fight against this in our mind as something we cannot accept because we did nothing to deserve it.

There is still the law of Christ. Throughout the NT Paul, Peter, James, and John provide warning after warning not to sin. They tell us not to be deceived, that sinners will not inherit the Kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:8-10 NASB
(8) On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
(9) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
(10) nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:33-34 NASB
(33) Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
(34) Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

Galatians 6:7-9 NASB
(7) Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
(8) For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
(9) Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

James 1:14-16 NASB
(14) But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
(15) Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
(16) Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

If you think God does not see the sins of those who believe that they are in Christ, then you are mistaken. Such are deceived, and I believe the above passages speak to them.

[didymus]

Morris,

Now that you explained, I understand, and agree.

Bev writes of "purify yourself" as being an action. The action is entering into Christ. There is no way to purify ourselves without Christ. As you once said, it all goes back to Christ.

[didymus]

Bev,

I don't think you understand what Morris said. If I understand him correctly, he is saying there is no good in him without Christ.

I have often told people, if there is any good in me, it's because God put it there. That is accomplished through Christ. If you see good in Morris, you are seeing Christ in him. The mystery of all ages, Christ in you.

- when are we going to have that tea

[Morris]

Aug 10, 2010 12:02:57 GMT -5 Once4all said:

No, I don't see it that way. "Purifies himself" means exactly what it says... you purify yourself.

Yes, but how do we purify ourselves? "everyone who has this hope fixed on Him". What is "this hope fixed on Him"? It says "when He is revealed, we shall be like Him". The hope is that we will be like Him... pure, "just as He is pure". Our hope is that we will be like Him, and because He is pure, we are pure as well. There is no mention of our labour making us pure, just our hope, and isn't that faith?

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for"

Does believing in God and being in Christ have no effect on you? Is there still no good in you? I hope you don't believe that.

Absolutely, yes. And this is the other side of the coin. But the question becomes, where does the good come from? This has to be qualified by what I'll say next.

Yes, in the purest sense, that is very true.

The purest sense is the only sense that matters to God (much like sin is sin). I believe I've shown scripture that points out that we do have 'good' in us, but in comparison to what is 'good in truth' (if you will), no. So, comparing man to man, we can see good in us even outside Christ. But not in comparing man to God.

The context of that quote from the OT is referring to those who do not seek after God.

Yes, that was the context there. But Paul gives it a new context, "For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written:...". His point, IMO, is that even with the law the Jews "turned aside" from God.

Note what Paul talks about as the passage continues. He says that the law makes one guilty, "Therefore" the law can't make anyone "justified in His sight". ["in His sight" as being from His perspective, not man's]. Then he says, "for by the law is the knowledge of sin"; this is the "consciousness of sins" and resulting guilt we saw in Hebrews.

But this is where it gets powerful, "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed". If the law cannot justify anyone, and the righteousness of God is separate from the law, what does the law have to do with us? It drives us to God as the only action of recourse. As Paul continues here, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", even with the law and doing what it says.

So what are we to do to be justified if the law makes us guilty? Believe, "being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus". How do we get God's righteousness? It is "through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe".

Paul's context was that no one was good, as God defines good, even if you had and held to the law, because the law pointed out that you were not good, and so condemned and you and made you guilty.

If you are still applying this to yourself, then have you turned aside from God? Have you once again become corrupt? Are you a son of man or a son of God?

And here we see some of that 'other side of the coin'. Am I a son of God in whom His righteousness dwells? Yes. Am I good? No, But I am dead and my life is in God because my faults are covered by Christ's life;
Colossians 3:3
"For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God"

This is a Calvinist error. They use this verse to prove the false concept of total depravity.

Indeed, I don't believe in total depravity. Scripture shows to the contrary of that doctrine. I can be good. But good isn't good enough "in His sight". I can be generous, caring, and helpful, but one broken command and its all over; I am guilty of everything. I am in sin and God cannot dwell in sin. With God there is either sin or no sin; either He described someone as righteous or unrighteous. Either we have a righteousness of our own or we have His righteousness.

This is why I believe the law's weakness is us. It gives the command that we cannot avoid breaking (eventually).
Romans 8:3
"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh".
But where there is no law, there can be no breaking of it.
Romans 4:15
"for where there is no law there is no transgression".

Yes, "whoever keeps the whole law"; i.e., those who still place themselves under the whole law.

But it doesn't say "place" it says "keeps", and that is contrasted with "stumble". "Whole" is contrasted with "one point". Look at the examples given directly before and after this. They show that even though you fulfill the royal law to love, yet show partiality in that love, you still sin. If you keep the command not to commit adultery, but murder, "you have become a transgressor of the law". Note that! A transgressor of the law! Not merely one command.

Look at what is written in the very next verse. We are not under that old law but rather "the law of liberty". This resonates with Paul words in 1 Corinthians 10:23,24 "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being".

The liberty we have in Christ is not a liberty to just do as we please. The liberty we have is a liberty from law and sin.
Romans 8:2
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

There is still the law of Christ. Throughout the NT Paul, Peter, James, and John provide warning after warning not to sin. They tell us not to be deceived, that sinners will not inherit the Kingdom.

Indeed, and I do not deny this. We are called to not sin. [The other side of the coin]. We are also called to set aside our wills for the father's will. This is all true but not contradictory (otherwise some of what we've read is not true).

If I sin, be it because of ignorance or temporary weakness or what have you, I know that God has not put it me because I am dead and in Him. But I should never deceive myself into thinking that I can willfully sin again and again and all will be fine. If I get to that point I have already placed my will (my desires) above God's.

If you think God does not see the sins of those who believe that they are in Christ, then you are mistaken. Such are deceived, and I believe the above passages speak to them.

What does "hidden with Christ in God" mean? What am I being hidden from? I don't think I can be hidden from God if I'm in Him, right? That just doesn't make any sense. So I agree that God sees the sins.

However, if I'm hidden from the law and sin, things make more sense. I'm not worried that I my have accidentally sinned or perhaps forgotten about one, or even if I may have sinned on purpose but didn't understand that it was a sin. I have died to the regulations that said I have disobeyed God. So now, in my heart and in my mind, I have the law of the Spirit of God.

Galatians 3:2,5
"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
"Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

We have the Spirit of God and His righteousness by the hearing of faith. The gift came first whereby we are made a new creation not subject to the law, transgression, or guilt. After that comes the new man that walks according to the Spirit, setting aside our own will for that of God's. I cannot sin where God has hidden me from the law, but I cannot remain in God if I continue in sin.

Is this making any more sense to anybody? I hope this time I've brought to bear both sides of this coin.

[Morris]

Aug 10, 2010 12:57:11 GMT -5 @didymus said:

Morris,

Now that you explained, I understand, and agree.

Bev writes of "purify yourself" as being an action. The action is entering into Christ. There is no way to purify ourselves without Christ. As you once said, it all goes back to Christ.

Yes, that is how I see it. Glad to see I'm starting to make sense to somebody.

[Morris]

Aug 10, 2010 13:05:32 GMT -5 @didymus said:

Bev,

I don't think you understand what Morris said. If I understand him correctly, he is saying there is no good in him without Christ.

I have often told people, if there is any good in me, it's because God put it there. That is accomplished through Christ. If you see good in Morris, you are seeing Christ in him. The mystery of all ages, Christ in you.

More or less. I can be seen as 'good' when compared to other people but I can't be seen as 'good' when it comes to God's standards. But if you see in me a sacrificial love that is true, that can only come from God.
John 13:35
"By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

[didymus]

Morris,

When it comes to this subject, you and I are on the same page, and even speak the same language.

In this discussion I have seen the damage Calvinism has done to the perception of the truth. As soon as you point out that no one is righteous, no not one, it brought out the question, are you a Calvinist. I think you handled that question very well.

I might be good enough to give my neighbor a cup of coffee when he runs out, or even buy him a jar when he runs out. I might be good enough to give my Satanic lesbian neighbor a ride when she needs one and graciously accept a ride from her when I need one. BUT, I am not good enough to go to the cross. When God established the sacrificial rules, he wanted a lamb that was perfect. No spots, no broken leg, but a perfect lamb. Only Christ could go to the cross because God demanded nothing less, and I would be a lot less.

As it is written, our righteousness is as filthy rags, when we compare our righteousness to the righteousness of Christ.

It all goes back to Christ and His work on the cross. Any doctrine that minimizes the work that Christ did on the cross is a doctrine not worthy to be adhered to. Likewise, it is also true that any doctrine that minimizes his role in creation is also not worthy of being uttered, for the same Christ that did the work of creation is the same Christ that went to the cross.

God bless you Morris, and to all others that study the cross of Christ.

- anyone for lemonade

[Morris]

Aug 10, 2010 17:58:09 GMT -5 @didymus said:

As soon as you point out that no one is righteous, no not one, it brought out the question, are you a Calvinist. I think you handled that question very well.

Thanks for the encouragement.

This is a bit of a generalization, but I find that we get into error when we take any extreme side of a two-ended issue. The Bible seems to give what is apparently contradictory info from time to time. An example is back in Exodus where we read that God hardened pharaoh's heart, and we also read that pharaoh hardened his own heart. Then some people base a doctrine on either one of these while downplaying the other. I say both are equally true.

It all goes back to Christ and His work on the cross.

And this I absolutely agree on. If there's anything that I've seen with any clarity in the last few years it's that God has worked the same throughout history and His purposes are always the same.

And Bev, if you still disagree, that's quite alright. Our fellowship isn't conditionally based on agreement in understanding.

[didymus]

Bev,

I agree with Morris on the fellowship issue. I think you know my respect for you. I think you are very intelligent. And, I do you think when you think about the cross of Christ, you will understand this. The cross of Christ makes all the difference in our lives.

God bless, Bev

- late night coffee

[didymus]

Morris,

I agree with you about Scriptures that seem to contradict themselves. God hardened Pharoh's heart, Pharoh hardened his heart. Obviously they are both right.

- same coffee

[Once4all]

Aug 10, 2010 15:22:27 GMT -5 Morris said:

Aug 10, 2010 12:57:11 GMT -5 @didymus said:

...

Bev writes of "purify yourself" as being an action. The action is entering into Christ. There is no way to purify ourselves without Christ. As you once said, it all goes back to Christ.

Yes, that is how I see it. Glad to see I'm starting to make sense to somebody.

Huh?

1 John 3:2-4 NASB
(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. (This is the hope spoken of in the next verse, the hope that we will be like Him.)
(3) And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. (To make that hope a reality, we work on purifying ourselves.)
(4) Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. (The contrasting action to purifying yourself is practicing sin.)

1 John 3:5-6 NASB
(5) You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
(6) No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

The action is not "entering Christ." The action is to purify yourself to be like Christ.

Sheldon, I'd love to address your longer response to mine, but my mind is still aflutter. God is still blessing me by reconnecting me with family. Now, this evening, I found out that my nephew, whom I haven't seen in more than 25 years, is in Tucson on business and we will be having dinner with him tomorrow. This is totally unrelated to my other news about my brothers and sisters on my father's side. This nephew is the son of the brother I grew up with.

This is actually the third cluster of reconnections, all within the past month. It started when I decided to see if I could find my sister's kids on the Internet and reconnect with them. I was successful with finding and communicating with three of the four, including their children who I'd never met. The very next week, I found out about my siblings on my father's side trying to contact me, and the week after that (this week/today), my nephew in Tucson. This is God's working, without a doubt. Thank you, Father!

[didymus]

Aug 11, 2010 0:25:34 GMT -5 Once4all said:

Aug 10, 2010 15:22:27 GMT -5 Morris said:

Yes, that is how I see it. Glad to see I'm starting to make sense to somebody.

Huh?

1 John 3:2-4 NASB
(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. (This is the hope spoken of in the next verse, the hope that we will be like Him.)

"When He appears." What does that mean? The title of this thread is "The Cross of Christ and Preterism." It seems to me, John was giving assurances to those people who were expecting the appearing of Christ in their life time. I might be wrong, but that is what I see. I still believe that appearing was in 70AD.

We see the same language just before in ch.2 vs.28. "And now little children, abide in Him. that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming."
So here, "when He appears" is very definitely referring to His coming in 70 AD.

Now let's go to the purpose for the letter. Ch.1,vs.4, states, " And these things we write to you that your joy may be full." This is a book of assurances. Christ hasn't returned yet, and they were expecting to see Him. And John's message to them was, keep focused on Christ, and everything will be okay. We have to understand John's message with those parameters. This is not a message of salvation. This is a message to those already saved and expecting the coming of Christ.

(3) And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. (To make that hope a reality, we work on purifying ourselves.)
(4) Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. (The contrasting action to purifying yourself is practicing sin.)

1 John 3:5-6 NASB
(5) You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
(6) No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

The action is not "entering Christ." The action is to purify yourself to be like Christ.

These people didn't have to be told to enter Christ, because they already have. But, they were also still in the flesh, as we are. And the flesh is still weak. And they needed assurances that everything would be okay.

Sheldon, I'd love to address your longer response to mine, but my mind is still aflutter. God is still blessing me by reconnecting me with family. Now, this evening, I found out that my nephew, whom I haven't seen in more than 25 years, is in Tucson on business and we will be having dinner with him tomorrow. This is totally unrelated to my other news about my brothers and sisters on my father's side. This nephew is the son of the brother I grew up with.

This is actually the third cluster of reconnections, all within the past month. It started when I decided to see if I could find my sister's kids on the Internet and reconnect with them. I was successful with finding and communicating with three of the four, including their children who I'd never met. The very next week, I found out about my siblings on my father's side trying to contact me, and the week after that (this week/today), my nephew in Tucson. This is God's working, without a doubt. Thank you, Father!

Since the rest is specifically addressed to Sheldon, all I'll say is, have a good time, Bev. May the Lord's blessings be upon you as you reconnect with your family.

- you will be having tea with them, won't you

[Morris]

Let's look at 1 John 3:2-6 (AV) again,
2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 - And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 - And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 - Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

There are many things going on here. Yes, it is "this" hope, the hope that we will be like Him. But the hope is "in Him" (or 'fixed on Him'). We don't hope merely in what we will be like, we hope in Him. It is Jesus that does these things and our faith in Him (not a faith in anything else). In other words, our faith is Christ, not in our hope. Does that make any sense? My "hope" (the Greek meaning 'expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence') is in God. 1 Peter 1:21, "who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God".

The next verses begin to describe this purifying (and I use the Authorized Version here because it appears to me as the truest translation of the Greek after studying). It shows us that everyone who sins violates the law, and therefore is in a state of illegality; an 'illegal condition or quality; unlawfulness'. It is confirmed again that "sin is" an illegal act, an act that breaks a law. Sin is dependent on there being a law to be broken. As I've shown in posts above, this appears several times in scripture.

Next verse. Christ appeared ("was manifested") to take away my sin and your sin. In light of what was said immediately before this ("sin is the transgression of the law"), Christ removed the law's application to us. We can't break something that doesn't apply to us. Paul also comments on this in Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes".

But notice it say that the law is ended to those who believe, so it isn't as though the law has ceased to be. Reading on, we read that either we abide in sin or in Him. If we abide in sin we have never seen or known Him.

The remainder of the chapter discusses the righteous doing what is righteous. It doesn't talk about laws and regulations. It is summed up in the last two verses of the chapter, "and this is His command, that we may believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and may love one another, even as He did give command to us, and he who is keeping His commands, in Him he doth remain, and He in him; and in this we know that He doth remain in us, from the Spirit that He gave us".

What is the prerequisite to being in Christ? Is it not to believe? What is the response to the gift of the grace of God? Is it not love? There is but one law to be included in Christ and this law is one of liberty; believe, and the fruit will be love.

John 6:28,29
"Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” "

The regulations of the law are set aside for those in Christ, for Christ has fulfilled them, and when we are in Him, we have them fulfilled for us that we may will in the freedom that is in Christ.

The action is not "entering Christ." The action is to purify yourself to be like Christ.

How do we do that? What can we do to purify ourselves? And to what standard? I'm not trying to say there is no element of effort on our part, but in anything we do the enduring result comes from God.

I quoted 1 Peter 1:21 above but let's look at the fuller passage for a moment. Notice again how it ends, "so that your faith and hope are in God". It continues, "Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, because
“ All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
But the word of the LORD endures forever.”
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you"

We read that they put their "faith and hope in God". It is because they did this that they were born again and through the Spirit that is in them they are able to obey the truth to love with a pure heart. Did they do something? Yes, they lived out what God did in them.

Note also that the purifying has nothing to do with the law or regulations. In fact, they purified themselves by doing something with a pure heart!

This is the way I see things in scripture, and it seems to appear everywhere I look, the same message; Christ has done it so we should be it.

2 Peter 1:2-4
"Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

And if we participate in His divine nature are we not going to display it?

"But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love."

Notice that we start with faith but through partaking of the divine nature we add the qualities of that nature that lead us to love, the great commandment that "is the fulfillment of the law". It could be said that the nature of God is the fulfillment of the law, so that the only way we can fulfill the law is to have the nature of God, and if the law is fulfilled by that nature, Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to us who believe.

Sheldon, I'd love to address your longer response to mine, but my mind is still aflutter. God is still blessing me by reconnecting me with family.

Don't worry about it. Concentrate on these relationships that God is putting in front of you and demonstrate to them the love of God.

God bless, Bev!

[Once4all]

Someone mentioned the "filthy rags" text. Another Calvinist misconception.

Isaiah 64:5-7
5 You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways
Behold, You were angry, for we sinned,
We continued in them a long time;
And shall we be saved?
6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
7 There is no one who calls on Your name,
Who arouses himself to take hold of You;
For You have hidden Your face from us
And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.

Let's look at Romans 3:11-12 and Psalm 14:1-3 while we're at it:

Romans 3:11-12
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Psalm 14:1-3
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God"
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

All of the blue (teal) verses are used out of context by Calvinists. Note the context of each one:

Isaiah 64 - Those who continued in sin; those who do not call on God's name.
Romans 3 - Those who do not seek God.
Psalm 14 - Those fools who say there is no God.

Which of those categories do you fall into? Or have you been cleansed by the blood of Christ and pursue after righteousness as a child of God? Which is it? You can't serve two masters.

In my opinion, based on the context of these verses, they apply to people who have either turned away from God or who are the enemies of God. They do not apply to Christians who are continually humbling themselves before God. All of our deeds were as filthy rags prior to being saved, but not afterward if we remain in Christ.

I think Reformed Christianity deprives believers of their victory in Christ by convincing them that their deeds are still worthless, filthy rags. They still claim to be the worst of sinners; they still claim to be depraved.

[Once4all]

Aug 10, 2010 23:35:29 GMT -5 @didymus said:

Bev,

I agree with Morris on the fellowship issue. I think you know my respect for you. I think you are very intelligent. And, I do you think when you think about the cross of Christ, you will understand this. The cross of Christ makes all the difference in our lives.

God bless, Bev

- late night coffee

Well, I don't want to daydream utopian fantasies about the cross of Christ, nor swallow what modern Christianity claims. I'd rather learn of its meaning in my life from the Word of God.

I don't mean to sound harsh in my disagreement. If I do, I apologize. I'm just feeling rushed and needing to get my thoughts out quickly. The majority of my earlier post about filthy rags was cut and paste from an older post I made to CARM. (I'm glad I save my longer posts so that I don't have to recreate them later!)

[didymus]

You are not sounding harsh. I hope I don't either. I've actually been in good spirits lately.

God bless,

Didy - internet minister

[Morris]

Aug 11, 2010 14:28:08 GMT -5 Once4all said:

Well, I don't want to daydream utopian fantasies about the cross of Christ, nor swallow what modern Christianity claims. I'd rather learn of its meaning in my life from the Word of God.

I don't think I disagree with as much as I think you believe we do. (Ug, that was a mess of a sentence!)

My salvation isn't dependent first and foremost on my works. My works are a consequence of my salvation. In Christ I cannot sin, that is, have sin imputed to me. This is because I am under His law, not one of regulations. Why do you think it can be said all food is clean when God declared to the contrary?

Titus 3:4-8
"But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men."

If we partake of the nature of Christ, are we not going to do the things that Christ did?
John 14:12
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father"

Can I be in Christ and not display His love? No.
Can a clean garment have stains? If it does, it is not truly clean. But can a clean garment, one that is truly clean, do anything but display its cleanness. No, for it is by nature clean.

And herein is my point. If I am truly in Christ, a new creation, not under the law, a partaker of the divine nature, the righteousness of God, and a clean branch, will I not bear the fruit of being such? Or can I be marred by a transgression against a law I am not under?

However, if my heart turns from God, and all those things I listed that I claim I am have no effect on me, I will not bear the fruit I am supposed to. This is what will condemn me to fire, not merely a stumbling into a sin. And we all stumble, but this stumbling isn't put on us as sin.

James 3:2
"For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body"

This describes it very well, I think;
John 15:1-8
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples."

And, of course,
John 13:35
"By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

What I see here is God giving us grace and mercy that we should be His children displaying His character. Being under the law of liberty so that sin cannot touch us, and His righteousness dwell in us, because of His love for us and so that we can glorify Him by the fruit we bear through Him. The law of liberty is not a license to sin, it is a mercy to glorify God.

It comes from God so that it can go back to God.

[didymus]

Aug 11, 2010 12:21:22 GMT -5 Morris said:

Let's look at 1 John 3:2-6 (AV) again,
2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 - And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 - And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 - Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

There are many things going on here. Yes, it is "this" hope, the hope that we will be like Him. But the hope is "in Him" (or 'fixed on Him'). We don't hope merely in what we will be like, we hope in Him. It is Jesus that does these things and our faith in Him (not a faith in anything else). In other words, our faith is Christ, not in our hope. Does that make any sense? My "hope" (the Greek meaning 'expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence') is in God. 1 Peter 1:21, "who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God".

The next verses begin to describe this purifying (and I use the Authorized Version here because it appears to me as the truest translation of the Greek after studying). It shows us that everyone who sins violates the law, and therefore is in a state of illegality; an 'illegal condition or quality; unlawfulness'. It is confirmed again that "sin is" an illegal act, an act that breaks a law. Sin is dependent on there being a law to be broken. As I've shown in posts above, this appears several times in scripture.

Next verse. Christ appeared ("was manifested") to take away my sin and your sin. In light of what was said immediately before this ("sin is the transgression of the law"), Christ removed the law's application to us. We can't break something that doesn't apply to us. Paul also comments on this in Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes".

But notice it say that the law is ended to those who believe, so it isn't as though the law has ceased to be. Reading on, we read that either we abide in sin or in Him. If we abide in sin we have never seen or known Him.

The remainder of the chapter discusses the righteous doing what is righteous. It doesn't talk about laws and regulations. It is summed up in the last two verses of the chapter, "and this is His command, that we may believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and may love one another, even as He did give command to us, and he who is keeping His commands, in Him he doth remain, and He in him; and in this we know that He doth remain in us, from the Spirit that He gave us".

What is the prerequisite to being in Christ? Is it not to believe? What is the response to the gift of the grace of God? Is it not love? There is but one law to be included in Christ and this law is one of liberty; believe, and the fruit will be love.

John 6:28,29
"Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” "

The regulations of the law are set aside for those in Christ, for Christ has fulfilled them, and when we are in Him, we have them fulfilled for us that we may will in the freedom that is in Christ.

The action is not "entering Christ." The action is to purify yourself to be like Christ.

How do we do that? What can we do to purify ourselves? And to what standard? I'm not trying to say there is no element of effort on our part, but in anything we do the enduring result comes from God.

I quoted 1 Peter 1:21 above but let's look at the fuller passage for a moment. Notice again how it ends, "so that your faith and hope are in God". It continues, "Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, because
“ All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
But the word of the LORD endures forever.”
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you"

We read that they put their "faith and hope in God". It is because they did this that they were born again and through the Spirit that is in them they are able to obey the truth to love with a pure heart. Did they do something? Yes, they lived out what God did in them.

Note also that the purifying has nothing to do with the law or regulations. In fact, they purified themselves by doing something with a pure heart!

This is the way I see things in scripture, and it seems to appear everywhere I look, the same message; Christ has done it so we should be it.

2 Peter 1:2-4
"Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

And if we participate in His divine nature are we not going to display it?

"But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love."

Notice that we start with faith but through partaking of the divine nature we add the qualities of that nature that lead us to love, the great commandment that "is the fulfillment of the law". It could be said that the nature of God is the fulfillment of the law, so that the only way we can fulfill the law is to have the nature of God, and if the law is fulfilled by that nature, Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to us who believe.

Sheldon, I'd love to address your longer response to mine, but my mind is still aflutter. God is still blessing me by reconnecting me with family.

Don't worry about it. Concentrate on these relationships that God is putting in front of you and demonstrate to them the love of God.

God bless, Bev!

Absolutely 100% great post Morris.

[Kangaroo Jack]

Aug 8, 2010 23:41:42 GMT -5 @didymus said:

This has been something that has been on my mind lately. It wondered me if some parts of preterism diminishes the accomplishments of Christ on the cross. Let me explain.

First, the Old Covenant came to an end at the cross of Christ, having been nailed to the cross. Ephesians 2.14-16, Colossians 2.14.

Second, the New Testament came in force at the cross, because Jesus, the testator, has died. Hebrews 9.16-17.

Third, when one is in Christ, ALL things become new. II Corinthians 5.17.

So, at the cross, the Old Covenant, with all it's rules and regulations and prophecies came to an end. At the cross, the New Testament came in force because of the death of the testator. But, Jesus raised from the dead so we who are in Christ have also been raised into new life. Could this be considered the resurrection of the saints?

In Christ ALL things become new. New life, new heavens, new earth. Those not in Christ are still in bondage to old things, such as the law, which is dead, and therefore they are also dead in their sins and trespasses.

For some time now, I have wrestled with the idea of all things being fulfilled in 70AD, and certainly the last judgement of Israel came to fruition in 70AD, but even that was finished at the cross. It was just a matter of time before that judgement was carried out. But, even the apostles were in the new kingdom, were they not? And did they not talk about the kingdom as already being present? All those in Christ are in the new kingdom, because all things become new.

Jesus became the author and finisher of our faith because of His work on the cross, not because of what happened in 70AD.

I am sure these are things that many already know. But few have put them together. It is because of the cross that all things become new.

Am I wrong here? Help me out, please.

- perhaps over a cup of tea

The problem with the statement above is that the atonement was not completed at the cross. Under Moses there were TWO parts to the atonement. The first part was the death of the animal. The second part was the sprinkling of its blood on the altar. It was the sprinkling of its blood on the altar that was the actual atonement.

When Jesus died on the cross He only accomplished the first part. Then He ascended into the heavenly sanctuary to make the intercession that was the equivalent of the sprinkling of the blood on the altar. He accomplished this intercesion in ad70. Thus the atoning work was completed. Note that Peter included the sprinkling of the blood for atonement (1 Peter 1:1-2).

Kangaroo Jack

[didymus]

Hi Kangaroo Jack,

Welcome to these forums.

However, I must disagree. I believe the sprinkling of blood is a referrence to the cross, as in Hebrews 10.19-22.

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Then again in Hebrews 12.24.

to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Hebrews 10.19-22 is definitely speaking of the cross. And where did Jesus become a mediator of the new covenant if not at the cross? It all goes back to the cross.

Haven't you ever wondered what Jesus meant by, "it is finished"? I have thought about that for some time. What do you think He meant?

[mellontes]

Aug 19, 2010 11:35:51 GMT -5 @didymus said:

Hi Kangaroo Jack,

Welcome to these forums.

However, I must disagree. I believe the sprinkling of blood is a referrence to the cross, as in Hebrews 10.19-22.

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Then again in Hebrews 12.24.

to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Hebrews 10.19-22 is definitely speaking of the cross. And where did Jesus become a mediator of the new covenant if not at the cross? It all goes back to the cross.

Haven't you ever wondered what Jesus meant by, "it is finished"? I have thought about that for some time. What do you think He meant?

If "it is finished" is representative of a complete atonement, one must wonder what the resurrection has to do with anything since it occurs AFTER the "it is finished" declaration. The Lamb had been slain...

P.S. - Welcome Kangaroo Jack!