Fullness of the Gentiles

[Once4all]

Ted's comments in the Unconditional Love thread regarding Jew and Gentile made me remember something I received in email the other day. I was going to start a thread about it, then got sidetracked, or maybe just decided not to, I don't remember.

The author is also a preterist. What do you think of what he says here regarding the fullness of the Gentiles:

"The fulness of the Gentiles was about the ten northern tribes joining the two southern tribes (Judah & Benjamin). When the fulness of the numbers of the twelve tribes or their completeness happened, Paul says, "And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Israel).'" (Romans 11:26, 27). These Gentiles are not other nations of the world. They are the other nations of Israel. Some were in the land and some were in exile. They would be brought together by the message of Christ and joined together by the blood of Christ." ~ Jerry Bernard

[Allyn]

Bev,
Just last night in my study I came across the same thing in a footnote of my Bible. Usually I pay no attention to those footnotes because the Bible is a scoville NKJV, but they said the exact same thing and it made sense to me.

[Morris]

(Apologies for long passage but I feel it is necessary.)

Ephesians 2:11-22
"Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit."

Some may disagree with me here but once the Gentiles were opened to the gospel, I believe the distinction that God had between Jew and Gentile was removed, by that very gospel. The two groups were opposed to each other by the law of God. I think that is now seen as a picture of being in Christ (being a 'Jew') or being outside of Him (being a 'Gentile'). These spiritual groups are now opposed, or at odds against each other, because of Christ.

Now, you may say that God still held the distinction (despite what the above scripture says) on the basis that God still held judgment for Jerusalem. I think this is true, but not because they were Jews. Rather, it was on the basis that they rejected the grace that the Saviour offered to them in favour of their works in the law.

Regarding "The fullness of the Gentiles" I'm not completely sure, but based on the illustration Paul paints for us in Romans 9, and the above passage, Israel will all be saved, and IS all saved, because Israel are the sons of God found in Christ.

That is how I see the picture.

(I'm sorry I can't explore this deeper at the moment; I have to get going).

[Once4all]

Thanks, Allyn and Sheldon. It makes sense when we realize that Gentiles is just the word "ethnos" and can mean any tribe of people. So the fullness refers to the joining of the 12 tribes of Israel. Then there are also those who were not of the 12 tribes (such as us) who, nonetheless, can become part of Israel by being grafted in.

Ooh, I just noticed the time. Gotta run. I didn't mean to get into this too deeply. I guess I've been programmed to think "non Jew" when I see the word Gentile, and that is not always necessarily the case.

[Morris]

Jul 14, 2010 19:50:34 GMT -5 Once4all said:

Thanks, Allyn and Sheldon. It makes sense when we realize that Gentiles is just the word "ethnos" and can mean any tribe of people. So the fullness refers to the joining of the 12 tribes of Israel. Then there are also those who were not of the 12 tribes (such as us) who, nonetheless, can become part of Israel by being grafted in.

True. The word simply means 'races/tribes'. It seems to imply non-Jew in general but at the same time can be all-inclusive.

[MoGrace2U]

I suppose that the fulness of the Gentiles has a numeric application because there was a remnant that was being gathered in that day. But the fulness of Israel who had been temporarily cut off was dependent upon this fulness of the Gentiles being reached beforehand. And when Israel came into her fulness it would mean life from the dead! So I am inclined to think more in terms of the perfection of the saints as Paul was going back and forth among the churches he established, perfecting what was lacking in their faith. His purpose was to insure the Gentiles were blameless, filled with righteous spiritual fruits in the day of the Lord.

See Rom 11:12, 25

[Morris]

Jul 15, 2010 12:16:42 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

I suppose that the fulness of the Gentiles has a numeric application because there was a remnant that was being gathered in that day. But the fulness of Israel who had been temporarily cut off was dependent upon this fulness of the Gentiles being reached beforehand. And when Israel came into her fulness it would mean life from the dead! So I am inclined to think more in terms of the perfection of the saints as Paul was going back and forth among the churches he established, perfecting what was lacking in their faith. His purpose was to insure the Gentiles were blameless, filled with righteous spiritual fruits in the day of the Lord.

See Rom 11:12, 25

A quick comment on the bolded portion here, Romans 11 specifically states that "their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always". That 'always' means 'through all time'.

When verse 25 says, "that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in", it speaks of a division of blindness within Israel (meros - a division or share). In other words, there are some in Israel who experience blindness and some who don't.

As far as 'in part' goes, there is no 'time' element to this blindness. In fact, verse 10 says it is 'constantly - through all time'. However, there is an "until" which must be addressed. It is my opinion that this is the process of transition described in the illustration Paul presents of Israel the cultivated olive tree.

I'll start another thread on the topic but for now, I believe we see in this chapter a change of membership within that cultivated olive tree. At first it is reckoned by Israel, the first root, and all of his descendants are natural branches. Then Jesus is declared the new root, the holy root (and He came from Israel). Now, when the root changed, the prerequisite for membership in the tree changed. It was no longer reckoned by Jacob/Israel but by Christ. Branches that were originally there simply because they were of Israel, but did not believe in Christ, were removed. Anyone who did believe, but were not of Jacob/Israel (a gentile from the wild olive tree), were then grafted in.

With Christ as the root, belief in Him became the criteria of participation. But note very closely, the tree did not change, only the member branches changed. Now if "Israel", the cultivated olive tree, consists of only of those who believe and are in Christ, it can be said "And so all Israel will be saved". In fact, the "and so" is basically a 'and in this manner' statement (according to Strong's).

The blindness still exists in the natural branches; as it says, "always". For some believe and some disbelieve. But to the branches that remained and to those grafted in, the blindness is lifted; the "until".

This is seen again in 2 Corinthians 3:14-16,
"But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."

That is my understanding of it, anyway.

[Once4all]

Thanks, Sheldon. Very interesting.