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Post by Allyn on Oct 10, 2008 17:59:25 GMT -5
Maybe all of you know that I was once a partial pret after having been for a short while an ammillenialist. I came out of the futurist/amil position partly because I just couldn't get myself worked up in the hand wringing sessions most futurist like to engage in. If a terrible event is written about in the newspapers then that in itself is just cause to scream the sky is falling. I just couldn't by into it.
Well, one of the tools I use on all my websites is a visitor counter which tells me who visits my websites and what URL they came from. It also gives me the search words used in google and other search engines. I have taken note that with the stock market situation the way it is, this has brought the hand-wringers out in full force. They search with terms such as "prophecy and the great economical crash", "The great tribulation - buying and selling", "modern day prophets and the end of the world".
I guess my purpose for this thread is indicate my sorrow towards the many people whose hope lies in disaster instead of the real reason we are Christians.
I wonder what your thoughts are?
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Post by john14and9 on Oct 10, 2008 21:24:36 GMT -5
Maybe all of you know that I was once a partial pret after having been for a short while an ammillenialist. I came out of the futurist/amil position partly because I just couldn't get myself worked up in the hand wringing sessions most futurist like to engage in. If a terrible event is written about in the newspapers then that in itself is just cause to scream the sky is falling. I just couldn't by into it. Well, one of the tools I use on all my websites is a visitor counter which tells me who visits my websites and what URL they came from. It also gives me the search words used in google and other search engines. I have taken note that with the stock market situation the way it is, this has brought the hand-wringers out in full force. They search with terms such as "prophecy and the great economical crash", "The great tribulation - buying and selling", "modern day prophets and the end of the world". I guess my purpose for this thread is indicate my sorrow towards the many people whose hope lies in disaster instead of the real reason we are Christians. I wonder what your thoughts are? Truly Allyn people are looking for the END to come,what a big shock oneday that will come for a lot of folks when things really get worse and most of all they are not "raptured"out of here like their pastor has told them. A lot of tithe payers are going to be angry and upset ! I would not want to be a Pastor on when that happens..that is a futurist Pasor.. Let me ask you since you were a partial pret..WHAT scriptures do they hang on to that is STILL future to the church?..I guess I have a hard time believing that they believe scripture has been fulfilled but "some"of it has not,,that is so crazy..If they hang on to 1 Thess 4:17 for example..why would Paul tell those Thessalonians what would happen if it never did?..that would make Paul a deceiver and a liar.. I did not come into this as a partial and then to "full"..I came in Full and of course there are scriptures I still wrestle with today..I am only about 2 years into the view and so much more to learn.One thing for sure....THIS generation shall not pass..untill ALL ALL is a small word that means EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!! |
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Post by Allyn on Oct 10, 2008 22:07:45 GMT -5
Hi John14and9
Partial prets hold that Matthew 24:36-51 are yet future, Any reference to His coming, and Rev. 20 where Satan is loosed and Rev 21. Also 2 Peter or anything concerning the New Heavens and Earth. Is. 65 may be an exception. Of course they don't have Scriptural backing but then when did that stop any futurist/partial futurist? ;D
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Post by stephenpatrick on Oct 11, 2008 6:34:30 GMT -5
Good morning,
I'm wondering just what will happen to their faith if Israel continues to beat up on the Palestinians and finally the Arab countries once again say enough and actually win the next war in the Middle East. With Israel smoldering in ruins, what would dispy's do then?
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Post by Allyn on Oct 11, 2008 6:55:47 GMT -5
I have wondered the same thing, Stephen. Few people realize that the palestinians are refugees from when the jews went in and ran the arabs out. The murdered and plundered. They destroyed whole families and all for what they claim was their God-given right. Another little known fact is that there is probably not one jew today who even has any blood connection to Abraham. Instead these people today are descendants of people who took on the jewish religion.
At any rate its an unfair situation over there. When Christian Zionists make claims that only jews deserve the land of Israel then they are actually fighting against Arab Christians who are caught in the middle and we as Christians sould be supporting them rather than supporting a people who hate Christ.
BTW, Stephen - welcome brother.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 11, 2008 23:16:57 GMT -5
Hi Allyn,
I see the people who are occupying the land today as being those who are under a curse - according to prophecy. The futurist finds hope in "Israel" being returned to the land. But it you look at Revelation carefully, you will see that Israel of the flesh undergoes a metamorphisis as she becomes symbolized by her ancient enemies while the saints are those who have faith in Christ.
The reason I am not a full Preterist has to do with Rev 20 and Gog and Magog appearing in the land at the end of the 1,000's of years. Apostate Israel being called Sodom, Egypt and Babylon in Revelation also shows me that she is probably Gog who leads Magog in the Satanic deceit which I think we are now experiencing. She is still a harlot.
The people who are returning to the land are not being gathered to faith in Christ, rather they continue in the same apostacy that marked their forefathers who rejected Jesus as the Christ in the 1st century. They have once again caused violence and blood to fill the land - and the whole world is watching what they will do next. And it is her leaders - just as before - who are causing the people to follow in their idolatrous ways.
Have you not noticed that the Wailing Wall is the foundation for the Al Aqsa that sits on the Dome of the Rock? Here is where Israel chooses to gather for prayer - the irony concerning their idolatry is too blatant if you ask me. It might as well be a golden calf as anything. Because in their hearts and in their prayers is a temple which blasphemies Jesus.
And just the day before yesterday, they gathered together all over the world to fast and pray for their atonement. An atonement which Jesus has already delivered but which they refuse to accept. And how many Christians influenced by the Zionist/ Hebrew Roots movement joined them in this tradition?
It is hard not to demonize Israel when you see that dragons are in fact inhabiting the land which is what prophecy foretold would be the case. Even to become tour guides for the Christians who visit there, quoting the gospel to them. Could it get any more miserable? If they are able to subvert more of the brethren then I would have to say the end is near. Who is praying like Elijah today? Nobody, because they do not see what is right before their eyes.
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Post by Allyn on Oct 12, 2008 7:23:57 GMT -5
Hi Allyn,
I see the people who are occupying the land today as being those who are under a curse - according to prophecy. The futurist finds hope in "Israel" being returned to the land. But it you look at Revelation carefully, you will see that Israel of the flesh undergoes a metamorphisis as she becomes symbolized by her ancient enemies while the saints are those who have faith in Christ.
The reason I am not a full Preterist has to do with Rev 20 and Gog and Magog appearing in the land at the end of the 1,000's of years. Apostate Israel being called Sodom, Egypt and Babylon in Revelation also shows me that she is probably Gog who leads Magog in the Satanic deceit which I think we are now experiencing. She is still a harlot.
The people who are returning to the land are not being gathered to faith in Christ, rather they continue in the same apostacy that marked their forefathers who rejected Jesus as the Christ in the 1st century. They have once again caused violence and blood to fill the land - and the whole world is watching what they will do next. And it is her leaders - just as before - who are causing the people to follow in their idolatrous ways.
Have you not noticed that the Wailing Wall is the foundation for the Al Aqsa that sits on the Dome of the Rock? Here is where Israel chooses to gather for prayer - the irony concerning their idolatry is too blatant if you ask me. It might as well be a golden calf as anything. Because in their hearts and in their prayers is a temple which blasphemies Jesus.
And just the day before yesterday, they gathered together all over the world to fast and pray for their atonement. An atonement which Jesus has already delivered but which they refuse to accept. And how many Christians influenced by the Zionist/ Hebrew Roots movement joined them in this tradition?
It is hard not to demonize Israel when you see that dragons are in fact inhabiting the land which is what prophecy foretold would be the case. Even to become tour guides for the Christians who visit there, quoting the gospel to them. Could it get any more miserable? If they are able to subvert more of the brethren then I would have to say the end is near. Who is praying like Elijah today? Nobody, because they do not see what is right before their eyes. Robin, Hi - I always appreciate your depth. I guess the biggest problem I have concerning Israel today and prophecy is who are these people really? I mean, has far as I can see hardly any if any of them are blood related to Abraham. So what does that make these people and so why would Revelation point to them? You said: But if these people are truly not of the original race of Israel - as I contend that they are not - then really they are no more or less then any unbeliever on earth today. Its early and I am not all awake yet, so I may not be stating this clearly. Do you kind of see what I am saying? |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Oct 12, 2008 8:22:48 GMT -5
Goodmorning,
In Deuteronomy 28:45-48 it says . . . . "All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. Because you did not serve the LORD your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the LORD sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you."
Okay, a couple of questions.
According to verse 45, they were destroyed. A bible dictionary or lexicon says that the word destroyed means "to desolate -- destory(-uction), bring to nought, overthrow, perish, pluck down, utterly." To utterly destroy something means they are wiped out. I assume that means that the Jews are no more. Is that what it means? Does that verse mean exactly what it says?
But the next verse say "They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever." If the Jews are utterly destroyed, how can they have descendants forever? So you see, this is confusing. Or does the word forever mean something else? God says that the descendants of those who did not obey the decrees and commands of the Lord will recognize the curses against them as a sign from God, forever. How do I rectify verse 46 when to me it contradicts verse 45? Or doesn't it?
Thanks.
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Post by Allyn on Oct 12, 2008 8:43:19 GMT -5
Goodmorning,
In Deuteronomy 28:45-48 it says . . . . "All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. Because you did not serve the LORD your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the LORD sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you."
Okay, a couple of questions.
According to verse 45, they were destroyed. A bible dictionary or lexicon says that the word destroyed means "to desolate -- destory(-uction), bring to nought, overthrow, perish, pluck down, utterly." To utterly destroy something means they are wiped out. I assume that means that the Jews are no more. Is that what it means? Does that verse mean exactly what it says?
But the next verse say "They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever." If the Jews are utterly destroyed, how can they have descendants forever? So you see, this is confusing. Or does the word forever mean something else? God says that the descendants of those who did not obey the decrees and commands of the Lord will recognize the curses against them as a sign from God, forever. How do I rectify verse 46 when to me it contradicts verse 45? Or doesn't it?
Thanks. That's a good question Stephen and I am just going to throw in my two cents worth - I think it possible that descendants do not always refer to blood descendants but can also mean those who take upon themselves the identity of those they have choosen to be like. Does that make sense to you? Therefore Jews today are those not of blood but of religion, thus being descendants in that manner. We chrisitians are descendants of Abraham by faith, not blood and only through Christ can we be called children of Abraham. One of the objections I have with Christians today who claim that the Jews today are of the Jews of the first century Israel is the natural branch connection. In the first century and of course those centuries before them, the natural branches could be identified as true blood related Jews and a part of the choosen race of people. They were certainly natural branches. Every other person who then came to Christ were then grafted in on that tree, likewise any natural branch who rejected the Savior was cut off. At some point all those of the first century died off and thus we are left with only people who were born after the New Covenant fulfillment. This left all people born in the same state of being. None, after that point could claim that they were already on the tree because all, after that point, would have to be grafted in whether Jew or Gentile. In otherwords, the natural branches were those up to Christ and they had to make the choice to stay on the tree. They have all since died. No one, since, can claim to have started on the tree. No one is natural anymore - all must be grafted in. |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Oct 12, 2008 8:50:35 GMT -5
Thanks Allyn. That does make sense. So descendants would means those who have followed the faith of Judaism, not DNA. I've listened to Steve Gregg's series on Israel and do agree that there are no more blood relatives of Abraham alive today. Thanks
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Post by Allyn on Oct 12, 2008 8:52:06 GMT -5
Have a blessed day, brother.
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Post by mellontes on Oct 12, 2008 12:38:44 GMT -5
Don't forget my penny worth...
There is a big difference in today's "Jews" and the OT Jews. The main difference is that when God addresses the Jews of the OT they are still bound under and practicing the temple rites and offerings. This old covenant system was what was OBLITERATED along with millions of Jews still adhering to that system. The genealogies were destroyed too. The rest were sold into slavery. The real "Jews" (those inwardly, i.e. the Christians) fled Judea upon seeing Christ's warning in Matthew 24.
The so-called Jews today (nobody knows who a Jew is because the genealogies were destroyed) are not following biblical old covenant Judaism - they follow the Talmud. There is no temple. Therefore there are no offerings and sacrifices. Besides all of this the Jews never have been a race! It has always been a religion. Proselytes from other nations could become a Jew, but their race, well it was different...
It was the old (covenant) that was passing away in Hebrews 8:13. It was Jesus who would take away the first (covenant) in Hebrews 10:9. It was the fashion of that old covenant world that was passing away (1 Corinthians 7:31)
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 12, 2008 13:25:23 GMT -5
I found a penny to toss into the pot!  Over at BF, Francis Schaeffer was quoted who held the popular dispensational view that Israel is still a race of people descended from Abraham and thus the people who hold the promise given him. But in the article posted, he showed clearly that Jesus was the (final) true Seed of Abraham which Israel was to produce. I put final in parenthesis, because he did not realize that this was what he proved. My response was that because this is true and Jesus has had no natural children, then He alone received and holds the promises Israel was given thru Abraham and all the covenants. Jesus was (and still is) the faithful and final Son that Israel was to bring forth. Paul in Romans when speaking of natural Israel and spiritual Israel, is speaking specifically of a remnant of natural Jews alive in that generation in that day. Where is Israel to be populated from now that Jesus has come and that generation has passed? This is also how we ought to understand the new heavens and new earth that came when the old covenant generation passed. The rule of spiritual Israel is now under the reign of Christ from heaven. The whole system has thus changed under the new covenant. Jesus is reigning as King and Priest over the children He has adopted, while the others were, and continue to be, cut off. Their only hope of restoration under the new covenant is to repent and believe in Him by faith. No other restoration has been promised to Israel in the NT as it was in the OT. Jesus is thus the final solution for Israel's redemption and hope. There is no other Word that supercedes the word He brought regarding these things Israel was waiting for. Which Moses said was to be the case in Deut 18:15. Jesus only births spiritual children in the earth, and we alone are counted as His brethren because He planted His Seed (word, eternal life) in us. Abraham's natural seed has thus not extended beyond Jesus who lives forever more. The promises and inheritance are His and His alone. Those who are occupying the land today are only usurpers. Claiming to be the suffering servant who suffers for the sins of the whole world. Claiming that their Rabbis sit in the heavenly counsel to mediate the word of God. Making plans for another temple in which they can rule over the spiritual things of God in the earth. Praying at the wailing wall atop which sits the Al Aqsa. The golden calf in Israel today is Israel herself - she is Anti-Christ. And that she is without God, seems not to matter to her; because she is deceived over her true condition, she tries to seduce others to do the same. And many are following her pernicious ways trying to be just like her! |
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Post by mellontes on Oct 12, 2008 14:23:36 GMT -5
Very well said Mograce...When is the book due out?
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Post by Allyn on Oct 12, 2008 14:32:03 GMT -5
Very well said Mograce...When is the book due out? I agree Ted. Doesn't she do an excellent job? |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 28, 2008 22:02:32 GMT -5
I'm driving home from work tonite and Ray Bentley (Calvary Chapel KWAV) is giving a teaching on Hosea. As CC pastors go, he is one of the better ones regarding the OT. He gave a marvelous teaching on the heart of God, His compassion etc. for His people in spite of their unbelief and failings and sin. I found myself waiting for him to at least mention Jesus as being how God brought the promises in Hosea to pass. But no, he skips right over the cross to talk about the people in the land today being those God loves and pines for and intends to save.
My first thought was where is Jesus in all this and then what am I - chopped liver? He never once mentioned the salvation that Jesus brought to Israel. My stomach is still in knots...
Earlier, I was listening to Dr. Laura and a woman called in who had been to her Pastor for counseling but thought Dr. Laura would know better - because of the wisdom of the Jews you know...
sorry for the vent (sorta)
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Post by Michael J Loomis on Oct 29, 2008 0:41:42 GMT -5
I'm driving home from work tonite and Ray Bentley (Calvary Chapel KWAV) is giving a teaching on Hosea. As CC pastors go, he is one of the better ones regarding the OT. He gave a marvelous teaching on the heart of God, His compassion etc. for His people in spite of their unbelief and failings and sin. I found myself waiting for him to at least mention Jesus as being how God brought the promises in Hosea to pass. But no, he skips right over the cross to talk about the people in the land today being those God loves and pines for and intends to save. My first thought was where is Jesus in all this and then what am I - chopped liver? He never once mentioned the salvation that Jesus brought to Israel. My stomach is still in knots... Earlier, I was listening to Dr. Laura and a woman called in who had been to her Pastor for counseling but thought Dr. Laura would know better - because of the wisdom of the Jews you know... sorry for the vent (sorta) How funny...I used to work at Kwave until about 5 months ago. Matter of fact I worked for Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa for 5 years. It was kind of strange being a preterist and having Chuck Smith for a boss. Pmike |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Oct 29, 2008 14:00:40 GMT -5
WOW! The guy gets it doesn't he?
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Post by Sower on Jan 4, 2009 17:59:51 GMT -5
Futurist fear the truth. I speak as a former futurist! They can't face the truth, there will not be a rapture or antichrist, and most of all no ruling here on earth a 1000 years with Jesus from Jerusalem. Many live for daily news out of the middle east or a word from their favorite prophecy teacher to keep them motivated in their christian lives, they call it looking for the blessed hope.  Thus, they deny themselves the joy of living in the kingdom now! Lady Sower~ |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 4, 2009 18:14:12 GMT -5
I check in on www.StanGoodenough.com once in a while. He is a "Christian Zionist" journalist living in Jerusalem. He is a very good writer and loves the Lord but his take on Israel is so unbiblical, yet the follwers of his blog nearly worship this guy. What a waste for him to live there because of the perfect opportunity he has to bring Christ to the Jews - yet he believe that to be wrong because it would offend them. Since when wasn't the Gospel an offense? |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Jan 4, 2009 19:44:46 GMT -5
Good evening, If he were to share his faith with a Jew in Israel he would either be booted out of the country or he would be behind bars. www.truthtellers.org/alerts/christianjewsarrestedisrael.htmThis is a link to Ted Pikes website, called the National Prayer Network. He's a futurist. Read his mission statement on the left side of his site to get an idea of what he believes about Israel. He seems to be pretty knowledgeable about Zionism. Allyn's other website, endtimesmadness.com is packed with plenty on Zionism too. |
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Post by Allyn on Jan 4, 2009 20:14:59 GMT -5
Good evening,
If he were to share his faith with a Jew in Israel he would either be booted out of the country or he would be behind bars.
www.truthtellers.org/alerts/christianjewsarrestedisrael.htm
This is a link to Ted Pikes website, called the National Prayer Network. He's a futurist. Read his mission statement on the left side of his site to get an idea of what he believes about Israel. He seems to be pretty knowledgeable about Zionism. Allyn's other website, endtimesmadness.com is packed with plenty on Zionism too. I wish that was what restrains Stan Goodenough. At least he would have an excuse. Stan has told me, personally, that in the end all Israel will be saved so until then he is just going to give them a pass on everything else. This was told me while I hosted him and his family (beautiful family btw) in my home. It was from that point on began the termination of like mindedness. No I am an outcast of the faith as far as he is concerned. Se' La Vi |
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