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Post by didymus on Jun 29, 2010 9:50:03 GMT -5
I have a question. How do you see the grace of God? Do you see as the Calvinist do, as irresistible grace? Does grace come before faith, or faith before grace? If God's grace is irresistible, how can there be a falling away? Or, as in Galatians 5.4, how can someone who was a a partaker of God's grace be "fallen from grace," if it is irresistible? Thanx, God bless,  |
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Post by mellontes on Jun 29, 2010 10:49:48 GMT -5
I have a question. How do you see the grace of God? Do you see as the Calvinist do, as irresistible grace? Does grace come before faith, or faith before grace? If God's grace is irresistible, how can there be a falling away? Or, as in Galatians 5.4, how can someone who was a a partaker of God's grace be "fallen from grace," if it is irresistible? Thanx, God bless, Apparently, it is unfortunate that I am not a Calvinist. It seems that I was predestined to be a non-Calvinist and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it. Woe is me... |
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Post by wandashort on Jun 29, 2010 12:30:09 GMT -5
Didy! I been trying to reach you! Email me...
Oh, and my quick response to this thread is that grace then faith and there is not ever a falling away. Once saved, always saved. Those that God chooses to save he DRAWS to Him thru Christ and there is nothing I can do to either gain nor lose that salvation.
Just remember how much you love me before bashing me for being a calvinist! Both of you!!!
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Post by Morris on Jun 29, 2010 13:13:19 GMT -5
I may disagree with you, wandashort, and would discuss and debate with you, but I pray I would never 'bash' you!
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Post by mellontes on Jun 29, 2010 14:18:31 GMT -5
Didy! I been trying to reach you! Email me... Oh, and my quick response to this thread is that grace then faith and there is not ever a falling away. Once saved, always saved. Those that God chooses to save he DRAWS to Him thru Christ and there is nothing I can do to either gain nor lose that salvation. Just remember how much you love me before bashing me for being a calvinist! Both of you!!! Obviously, I couldn't bash you because God has not robotized, sorry, I mean predestined me to do that - at least I don't think He has... |
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Post by Once4all on Jun 30, 2010 9:43:44 GMT -5
Not a Calvinist. Do not believe OSAS. And I think "grace" many times in the NT should be translated "favor." And, yes, one can fall out of favor with God.
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Post by Allyn on Jun 30, 2010 11:57:38 GMT -5
I have a question. How do you see the grace of God? Do you see as the Calvinist do, as irresistible grace? Does grace come before faith, or faith before grace? If God's grace is irresistible, how can there be a falling away? Or, as in Galatians 5.4, how can someone who was a a partaker of God's grace be "fallen from grace," if it is irresistible? Thanx, God bless, If there is an irresistible grace then it is on God's side of the ledger. I believe God extends grace to all people on earth but the saving grace is conditional in that it must be by our acceptance O Christ. |
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Post by Once4all on Jun 30, 2010 14:00:54 GMT -5
From where in the Bible comes the idea that God extends grace to all people on earth? My first thought was Titus 2:11, but I think that refers to Jesus, his personal example and his teachings.
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
(Titus 2:11-12 KJV)
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Post by Morris on Jun 30, 2010 14:39:03 GMT -5
Romans 5:1,2,
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
As I see it, faith comes first, then we experience justification, peace, and access to grace.
Again,
Ephesians 2:8,
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God"
It is by grace that we are saved. This grace is a gift of God. But the gift comes "through faith".
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Post by Allyn on Jun 30, 2010 14:46:38 GMT -5
From where in the Bible comes the idea that God extends grace to all people on earth? My first thought was Titus 2:11, but I think that refers to Jesus, his personal example and his teachings. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12 KJV) Hi Bev, I was hoping to have made it clear - sometimes I don't. There is the grace extended to all mankind which provides the rain, the crops, good health and so forth. I call that grace which is also undeserved but yet provided for by our creator. And then there is the grace that is connected with eternal life. |
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Post by Once4all on Jun 30, 2010 18:51:14 GMT -5
From where in the Bible comes the idea that God extends grace to all people on earth? My first thought was Titus 2:11, but I think that refers to Jesus, his personal example and his teachings. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12 KJV) Hi Bev, I was hoping to have made it clear - sometimes I don't. There is the grace extended to all mankind which provides the rain, the crops, good health and so forth. I call that grace which is also undeserved but yet provided for by our creator. And then there is the grace that is connected with eternal life. Thanks, Allyn! What you are describing as grace, I call blessings, such as in Matthew 5:45b: ... for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. |
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Post by Allyn on Jun 30, 2010 19:58:41 GMT -5
Hi Bev, I was hoping to have made it clear - sometimes I don't. There is the grace extended to all mankind which provides the rain, the crops, good health and so forth. I call that grace which is also undeserved but yet provided for by our creator. And then there is the grace that is connected with eternal life. Thanks, Allyn! What you are describing as grace, I call blessings, such as in Matthew 5:45b: ... for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. It might just be a matter of interpretation but to me blessings are earned through obiedience only. Hmm, I guess that's the way I see it. |
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Post by Once4all on Jun 30, 2010 23:51:41 GMT -5
Thanks, Allyn! What you are describing as grace, I call blessings, such as in Matthew 5:45b: ... for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. It might just be a matter of interpretation but to me blessings are earned through obiedience only. Hmm, I guess that's the way I see it. What about the blessings that a father gives to his sons before he dies? That seems more tradition than something earned. But in general, I understand what you are saying, Allyn, and after some reflection, I think I agree with you regarding the examples given being that of grace. |
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Post by didymus on Jul 1, 2010 14:35:34 GMT -5
I want to thank you all for your comments. This is what I have learned so far by your comments.
Point 1. Grace brings salvation. (Thanks Bev)
Point 2. Faith comes before grace. (Thanks Morris)
Point 3. God is generally gracious toward His creation. (Thanks Allyn)
Does this sound about right?
On a side note. The Calvinist among us says that grace comes before faith. And our resident Calvinist is concerned that she will be "bashed" for her views. Well, I don't think I am predestined to bash you either.
You might be wondering why I have asked these question. I have been involved in some threads about Calvinism for quite some time now. And, I asked one of them, "If you could express Calvinism in one word, what would it be?" The answer was "grace."
Now I am sure that at sometime, I must have been involved in a Bible study about grace, but I cannot remember if or when. With all these discussion about grace, specifically irresistible grace, I thought it would not be a bad idea to refresh my knowledge of grace. The questions I have asked were questions that popped up in my mind during the early stages of my study. I thought, what if others have these questions? So, I decided to share this with you. In this site, I have found some of the greatest minds in theology.
For most of my life I have also believed that grace came before faith. As a result of this study, and with your help, I am changing my mind. What seems to be formulating in my mind now is that mercy comes first in that God showed mercy by sending His only begotten Son to die on the cross. I am sure you all know Romans 10.17, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." When we hear about this mercy that God has bestowed upon, first to his people, Israel, and then to the gentiles, we either accept that mercy by faith, while others remain unbelieving. Those who accept God's mercy by faith, after learning of God's mercy through the preaching of the Word, or by reading the Word of this mercy, we then gain access to God's grace which brings salvation.
So, now my question is, after partaking in so great a salvation, can one misplace their faith in something else, becoming estranged from Christ, resulting in falling from the grace that brings salvation, and thus lose that salvation? Based on Galatians 5.1-6, I believe the answer is "yes." What do you think?
Didy
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Post by Allyn on Jul 1, 2010 15:36:08 GMT -5
So, now my question is, after partaking in so great a salvation, can one misplace their faith in something else, becoming estranged from Christ, resulting in falling from the grace that brings salvation, and thus lose that salvation? Based on Galatians 5.1-6, I believe the answer is "yes." What do you think? Didy I believe one is capable of placing faith in something else outside of ones reliance on Christ but since you did not give an example I will assume you don't mean something like faith in a favorite team. Anytime we backslide we are putting our trust in something other than Christ. It may be because of health, a bad experience, immaturity - any number of reasons. But is this a falling away from grace? Anyone can have trials that completely crush us in our own eyes. When that happens some people lose the hope they thought they had (and truly did have) and see only the impossibility of ever getting close to God. Hebrews says it is impossible to be restored (sounds hopeless doesn't it?) but in one of the gospels its say: "for God nothing is impossible". So there you have it. In our frail human nature hope and faith is not there naturally. It takes God and His abundant love and out-stretched arms to make faith a reality in the ones He loves. Having said this I can only add that I know from the experience of my own life that my salvation is not determined on what I may do tomorrow. It wasn't lost by what I did yesterday and I did not restore it by what my actions are today. But instead my salvation came because I heard the message of salvation and my heart accepted it and my mind was renewed. My intent is not to sin because of Christ and that is what makes the difference along that fine line of faith and unbelief. |
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Post by Morris on Jul 2, 2010 9:00:23 GMT -5
Excellent post, Didy! Sorry, I don't have time at the moment to get back in the discussion fully.
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Post by didymus on Jul 3, 2010 14:35:57 GMT -5
Thank you Morris. I greatly appreciate your compliment. Allyn, If you look carefully, I did give an example. It's found in Galtians 5.1-6. Those trying to be justified by the law. Only by faith in Jesus Christ can we be justified. When we go through the trials of life, whatever they me be, we may get down on ourselves and feel helpless and hopeless. Our faith might be weakened as we struggle to figure out why God would allow or even cause the trials. But a weakened faith is better than having no faith at all, or putting our faith in the law for justification.  |
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