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Post by truestand on May 23, 2010 12:40:39 GMT -5
We live in an era where dispensationalism is the main course being served up in our churches and I know that most preterist have the view that Eschatology has nothing to do with salvation. I am of the persuasion that if all things are not fulfilled concerning the promise of God to Israel, then we are still under the Law of Moses and are transgressors of the Law. As Paul said, if the dead are not risen then Christ is not raised and you are still in your sins. The old must have passed away for the new to have an effect in our lives today. If Jesus did not accomplish the things He said He would in the generation He said He would accomplish it then He is a false prophet and not our savior at all.
I said that to say this.... I have a very difficult time sitting in a church service where dispensational theology is being taught because I feel that it robs the hearer of the Priesthood and the Kingdom authority that is theirs in Christ Jesus. Jesus preached the coming of the Kingdom of God and that one must be born from above to enter it or even see it. He preached the Kingdom of God, He sent His disciples to preach the Kingdom of God, Paul preached the Kingdom of God, Peter preached the Kingdom of God and all preached that it had come in their generation. How can Christianity preach anything other than the Kingdom of God and call people to salvation if the Kingdom of God is not available to them now? Entrance into the Kingdom of God is our salvation in Christ Jesus. Call me crazy if you will but without the Kingdom of God we have no Gospel.
Now having said that, I am so very interested in being able to hear a service that doesn't distort the Gospel of the Kingdom of God as preached by our Lord. Does anyone know of a church that has a live broadcast service that one can join on whatever day of the week and hear a fulfilled Gospel message? I am so tired of all the sensationalism.
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Post by Allyn on May 23, 2010 14:20:43 GMT -5
We live in an era where dispensationalism is the main course being served up in our churches and I know that most preterist have the view that Eschatology has nothing to do with salvation. I am of the persuasion that if all things are not fulfilled concerning the promise of God to Israel, then we are still under the Law of Moses and are transgressors of the Law. As Paul said, if the dead are not risen then Christ is not raised and you are still in your sins. The old must have passed away for the new to have an effect in our lives today. If Jesus did not accomplish the things He said He would in the generation He said He would accomplish it then He is a false prophet and not our savior at all. I said that to say this.... I have a very difficult time sitting in a church service where dispensational theology is being taught because I feel that it robs the hearer of the Priesthood and the Kingdom authority that is theirs in Christ Jesus. Jesus preached the coming of the Kingdom of God and that one must be born from above to enter it or even see it. He preached the Kingdom of God, He sent His disciples to preach the Kingdom of God, Paul preached the Kingdom of God, Peter preached the Kingdom of God and all preached that it had come in their generation. How can Christianity preach anything other than the Kingdom of God and call people to salvation if the Kingdom of God is not available to them now? Entrance into the Kingdom of God is our salvation in Christ Jesus. Call me crazy if you will but without the Kingdom of God we have no Gospel. Now having said that, I am so very interested in being able to hear a service that doesn't distort the Gospel of the Kingdom of God as preached by our Lord. Does anyone know of a church that has a live broadcast service that one can join on whatever day of the week and hear a fulfilled Gospel message? I am so tired of all the sensationalism. Hi Truestand, I'm glad you joined. You will find that most of us here are of the same mind as you. There are a couple or more with some variation to what you expressed but most are like you. I would suggest www.bereanbiblechurch.org/home.phpIt is a good place to start and other members will share with you their personal favorites. Its exciting times we preterists are in and frustrating at the same time. In my town here in Nebraska there are no other preterists for me to fellowship with. The churches are pretty dead except for one which is more like secular teaching with a little Bible mixed in. Its a social hour with entertainment on stage. We have our work cut out for us but I know God is making things happen even if it seems slow progress. Welcome to Preterist Voice  |
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Post by didymus on May 23, 2010 15:47:27 GMT -5
We live in an era where dispensationalism is the main course being served up in our churches and I know that most preterist have the view that Eschatology has nothing to do with salvation. I am of the persuasion that if all things are not fulfilled concerning the promise of God to Israel, then we are still under the Law of Moses and are transgressors of the Law. As Paul said, if the dead are not risen then Christ is not raised and you are still in your sins. The old must have passed away for the new to have an effect in our lives today. If Jesus did not accomplish the things He said He would in the generation He said He would accomplish it then He is a false prophet and not our savior at all. I said that to say this.... I have a very difficult time sitting in a church service where dispensational theology is being taught because I feel that it robs the hearer of the Priesthood and the Kingdom authority that is theirs in Christ Jesus. Jesus preached the coming of the Kingdom of God and that one must be born from above to enter it or even see it. He preached the Kingdom of God, He sent His disciples to preach the Kingdom of God, Paul preached the Kingdom of God, Peter preached the Kingdom of God and all preached that it had come in their generation. How can Christianity preach anything other than the Kingdom of God and call people to salvation if the Kingdom of God is not available to them now? Entrance into the Kingdom of God is our salvation in Christ Jesus. Call me crazy if you will but without the Kingdom of God we have no Gospel. Now having said that, I am so very interested in being able to hear a service that doesn't distort the Gospel of the Kingdom of God as preached by our Lord. Does anyone know of a church that has a live broadcast service that one can join on whatever day of the week and hear a fulfilled Gospel message? I am so tired of all the sensationalism. Truestand, thank God you're here. I can not agree with the premise of your statements more. These are statements similar to statements I've made. Of course, mine were a bit stronger. I just don't believe one can be saved at all unless they believe the truth of fulfilled prophecy. For me, it all has to do with who Christ is. Christ is not just he who went to the cross. He was raised from the dead. It is this same Christ that returned in 70AD. And that too is a part of who Christ is. You cannot separate the Savior from the current king. To do that you create two Christs. I too must say, welcome to preterist voice.  |
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Post by Michael J Loomis on May 23, 2010 18:06:43 GMT -5
We live in an era where dispensationalism is the main course being served up in our churches and I know that most preterist have the view that Eschatology has nothing to do with salvation. I am of the persuasion that if all things are not fulfilled concerning the promise of God to Israel, then we are still under the Law of Moses and are transgressors of the Law. As Paul said, if the dead are not risen then Christ is not raised and you are still in your sins. The old must have passed away for the new to have an effect in our lives today. If Jesus did not accomplish the things He said He would in the generation He said He would accomplish it then He is a false prophet and not our savior at all. I said that to say this.... I have a very difficult time sitting in a church service where dispensational theology is being taught because I feel that it robs the hearer of the Priesthood and the Kingdom authority that is theirs in Christ Jesus. Jesus preached the coming of the Kingdom of God and that one must be born from above to enter it or even see it. He preached the Kingdom of God, He sent His disciples to preach the Kingdom of God, Paul preached the Kingdom of God, Peter preached the Kingdom of God and all preached that it had come in their generation. How can Christianity preach anything other than the Kingdom of God and call people to salvation if the Kingdom of God is not available to them now? Entrance into the Kingdom of God is our salvation in Christ Jesus. Call me crazy if you will but without the Kingdom of God we have no Gospel. Now having said that, I am so very interested in being able to hear a service that doesn't distort the Gospel of the Kingdom of God as preached by our Lord. Does anyone know of a church that has a live broadcast service that one can join on whatever day of the week and hear a fulfilled Gospel message? I am so tired of all the sensationalism. Hello True...I've been working on building online fellowship for a little while now. I can't offer you face to face fellowship...That is unless you happen to be in Southern California. However if you are looking for a place to listen to live and somewhat interactive teaching consider hanging out at ad70.net. We've got at least 12 live broadcast per week. Some you can call in to with questions you might have. Or just hang out in the chatroom and interact with other listeners. You can access the chatroom from the listening pages or you can enter the standalone version of the chatroom at ad70chat.com if you like to listen in iTunes. Ed Hassertt and I are also exploring the idea of a Preterist Church on ad70.net. Check out preteristchurch.com. From there you can listen to the archived programs. Feel free to also visit the Preterist Radio Podcast page--> thepodcast.orgGod Bless, Mike |
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Post by preteristaynrand on Dec 16, 2010 16:31:05 GMT -5
AMEN!!!! This is the heart of the matter.......If Jesus has yet to come into His Kingdom, NO ONE HAS SALVATION.......Let's not forget this point.......
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Post by Allyn on Dec 27, 2010 8:32:25 GMT -5
The longer that I am a preterist the more I realize that I am totally satisfied with what God has shown me. Of course I expect more understanding to come my way but I am content with what I know.
My heart leans towards simple Christ-Like fellowship and I hope to capitalize on that yearning in the coming year. Wanda Short has a terrific prayer ministry and I pray for it to continue. Many of you who participate here also have lives outside of Preterist Voice (I'm not so arrogant to think otherwise) and I wish the best in Christ for you all.
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 27, 2010 9:57:12 GMT -5
The longer that I am a preterist the more I realize that I am totally satisfied with what God has shown me. Of course I expect more understanding to come my way but I am content with what I know. My heart leans towards simple Christ-Like fellowship and I hope to capitalize on that yearning in the coming year. Wanda Short has a terrific prayer ministry and I pray for it to continue. Many of you who participate here also have lives outside of Preterist Voice (I'm not so arrogant to think otherwise) and I wish the best in Christ for you all. Allyn, What is your idea of "simple Christ-like fellowship"? For me it has to do with worshipping with God's people even if they are in error on some points I hold to be important. It involves sharing the basic things of Christ and having fellowship dinners and praying for one another. Roo |
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Post by Allyn on Dec 27, 2010 13:19:24 GMT -5
The longer that I am a preterist the more I realize that I am totally satisfied with what God has shown me. Of course I expect more understanding to come my way but I am content with what I know. My heart leans towards simple Christ-Like fellowship and I hope to capitalize on that yearning in the coming year. Wanda Short has a terrific prayer ministry and I pray for it to continue. Many of you who participate here also have lives outside of Preterist Voice (I'm not so arrogant to think otherwise) and I wish the best in Christ for you all. Allyn, What is your idea of "simple Christ-like fellowship"? For me it has to do with worshipping with God's people even if they are in error on some points I hold to be important. It involves sharing the basic things of Christ and having fellowship dinners and praying for one another. Roo That would be mine as well. I admit to having some personal issues from the past that have left me with being a little more critical of some things then I ought to be. Believe me, I have been trying to work through those issues. One of the things I pray about in my life is to be a less critical person. I think I demand more of others (church folk) then I should. Its a deep seated issue for me and began with my home life. I guess we all have baggage. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 27, 2010 13:49:55 GMT -5
Allyn wrote:
It took me a long time to get to the place where I could be accepting of others. I did forsake church years ago for six months and it broke my wife's heart. How can a christian man withstand his wife's prayerful tears? It forced me deal with the issues and see the people of God as Christ sees them.
I still struggle with it though.
Roo
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Post by mellontes on Dec 27, 2010 22:10:30 GMT -5
Without mentioning which side (or any side), I have to wonder what the Apostle Paul would do if he stumbled into a dispensational church and heard the atrocities that are being preached today. I wonder what Jesus would do?
Notice that this is directed to thosewho have assumed control of His church and not the general pew people...
The bridge is out. Truth has fallen into the ditch. Shall we show them the way or stay quiet for the sake of fellowship and not to rock the boat. Do we worship God in spirit only, or do we worship Him in spirit and in truth?
Whose favor are we to seek?
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 28, 2010 15:21:10 GMT -5
Without mentioning which side (or any side), I have to wonder what the Apostle Paul would do if he stumbled into a dispensational church and heard the atrocities that are being preached today. I wonder what Jesus would do? Notice that this is directed to thosewho have assumed control of His church and not the general pew people... The bridge is out. Truth has fallen into the ditch. Shall we show them the way or stay quiet for the sake of fellowship and not to rock the boat. Do we worship God in spirit only, or do we worship Him in spirit and in truth? Whose favor are we to seek? The only falsehood that is anathematized in scripture is the teaching that introduces the works of the law into salvation. The dispensationalist who is true to justification by faith alone is better than the preterist who teaches that we must do works to have eternal life. Those dispensationalists who teach that the old covenant will be reinstituted are "anathema." The preterists who teach that we must still do works also reinstitute the old covenant and are also "anathema." Those who are true to justification by grace through faith alone are accepted by God regardless of their eschatology. Roo |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 28, 2010 16:15:40 GMT -5
Roo,
Do you know of any preterists who teach a works-based salvation?
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 28, 2010 17:26:53 GMT -5
Roo, Do you know of any preterists who teach a works-based salvation? Some preterists here deny OSAS. The denial of OSAS amounts to salvation by works. Come on! This was "anathema" to Paul because it makes the death of Christ of none effect. The dispensationalist who is true to the teaching of justification by faith alone is better than the preterist or anyone who adds works to salvation. One cannot say that salvation is by grace alone and then add works to it later on. The one who adds works to it later on really denies that salvation is by grace alone. Roo |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 28, 2010 21:55:28 GMT -5
Roo, Do you know of any preterists who teach a works-based salvation? Some preterists here deny OSAS. The denial of OSAS amounts to salvation by works. Come on! This was "anathema" to Paul because it makes the death of Christ of none effect. The dispensationalist who is true to the teaching of justification by faith alone is better than the preterist or anyone who adds works to salvation. One cannot say that salvation is by grace alone and then add works to it later on. The one who adds works to it later on really denies that salvation is by grace alone. Roo I see what you mean... Pardon me for my ignorance of the Reformed position and predestination, but how would OSAS work within predestination. I have heard (albeit possibly in error) that those predestinated within the Reformed (or is it Calvinistic) framework do not even know if they are of the "elect" to be saved. And if these individuals truly do not know if they are of the "elect" (according to their definition) how could they even apply OSAS to their own experience? |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 29, 2010 12:13:07 GMT -5
I see what you mean...
Mellontes wrote:
We are getting off into many subjects now. If you want to start another thread please do. My point is to show that we should not abandon attending church over every theological error. There is only one error which is explicitly said to be "anathema" and that is the teaching which adds works to salvation. God does not take lightly the nullification of the substitutionary death of His Son.
On all other things we should forbear and attend church.
Roo
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Post by mellontes on Dec 29, 2010 14:04:35 GMT -5
I hear you Roo, and wish it were so true in my case...
What if everyone you knew realized that you were a preterist? That is the case with me. I have been VERY vocal and have given my book on basic preterism to just about everyone I know, including pastors across Ontario.
When I go to church or associate with others, I am treated like the plague. I find fellowship within the plague impossible. They want nothing to do with me. I have no trouble in having people over to my home who are not preterists. In fact, one is coming for the week-end. I have already been warned that this individual does NOT wish to discuss the Bible. Notice that I said "the Bible" and not just preterism. He is a dispensationalist.
If you ever want to see what a mass rolling-up of the eyes looks like, then come up to Canada to visit me. We will go to a church I attended several years ago...
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Post by Allyn on Dec 29, 2010 14:18:23 GMT -5
I hear you Roo, and wish it were so true in my case... What if everyone you knew realized that you were a preterist? That is the case with me. I have been VERY vocal and have given my book on basic preterism to just about everyone I know, including pastors across Ontario. When I go to church or associate with others, I am treated like the plague. I find fellowship within the plague impossible. They want nothing to do with me. I have no trouble in having people over to my home who are not preterists. In fact, one is coming for the week-end. I have already been warned that this individual does NOT wish to discuss the Bible. Notice that I said "the Bible" and not just preterism. He is a dispensationalist. If you ever want to see what a mass rolling-up of the eyes looks like, then come up to Canada to visit me. We will go to a church I attended several years ago... In some ways I think it would be fun for 3 or 4 preterists to get together and go to a church like you have described. Not to say anything involving preterism or to say anything at all but just to watch the uncomfortable look in their eyes as they hope we won't say anything. Can you feel the power yet? |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 29, 2010 14:37:17 GMT -5
I hear you Roo, and wish it were so true in my case... What if everyone you knew realized that you were a preterist? That is the case with me. I have been VERY vocal and have given my book on basic preterism to just about everyone I know, including pastors across Ontario. When I go to church or associate with others, I am treated like the plague. I find fellowship within the plague impossible. They want nothing to do with me. I have no trouble in having people over to my home who are not preterists. In fact, one is coming for the week-end. I have already been warned that this individual does NOT wish to discuss the Bible. Notice that I said "the Bible" and not just preterism. He is a dispensationalist. If you ever want to see what a mass rolling-up of the eyes looks like, then come up to Canada to visit me. We will go to a church I attended several years ago... I was asked to present my preterist views in two consecutive Sunday school hours. The pastor openly opposed me and one seminary student literally hissed at me for real. Others were open including the youth pastor at the time. My preterist views are known and I am loved anyway. I have agreed to censorship in my church for the sake of unity. I am here to compensate for the lack of preterist fellowship I need. However, the online community is no replacement for church fellowship. In need both though. The doctrine of salvation by grace alone is the most important doctrine in the Bible. Roo |
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Post by didymus on Dec 29, 2010 21:47:49 GMT -5
Roo, Think of this: Also: What do these say to you? I often think about going back to church. But, what is the church? Is it a denomination? Is it a denomination-like independent church? When Jesus said, "I will build my church," what did he mean? Which church was it?  |
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Post by mellontes on Dec 29, 2010 22:54:50 GMT -5
Roo,
You are one fortunate man to be loved despite your preterism. Although you have clearly admitted that you must remain silent that Jesus did, in fact, hold to His promise. You must endure how Jesus and His apostles lied to church folk just for the sake of keeping the alleged false peace. Maybe that's how preterists endure to the end. :-)
It is a very difficult thing to do. I can't do it.
I don't know if you have hymns in your church or not, but every time a congregation would sing "Coming Again," my wife and I would sing "Already came." It is severely frowned upon to not sing the same words as everyone else. But I just can't sing something in my heart (or out loud) that just isn't true.
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 30, 2010 12:09:13 GMT -5
Roo, Think of this: Also: What do these say to you? I often think about going back to church. But, what is the church? Is it a denomination? Is it a denomination-like independent church? When Jesus said, "I will build my church," what did he mean? Which church was it? Jesus also said this, "Whosoever is not against us is FOR us." Most Futurists preach the true gospel which is salvation by grace alone. And it is my guess that you came to know Christ through such a one. Roo |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 30, 2010 12:23:38 GMT -5
Roo, You are one fortunate man to be loved despite your preterism. Although you have clearly admitted that you must remain silent that Jesus did, in fact, hold to His promise. You must endure how Jesus and His apostles lied to church folk just for the sake of keeping the alleged false peace. Maybe that's how preterists endure to the end. :-) It is a very difficult thing to do. I can't do it. I don't know if you have hymns in your church or not, but every time a congregation would sing "Coming Again," my wife and I would sing "Already came." It is severely frowned upon to not sing the same words as everyone else. But I just can't sing something in my heart (or out loud) that just isn't true. Anyone who loves Jesus as His Lord and Savior and loves His people is a child of God. But I don't sing hymns that are futurist. I do not cite the parts of the Apostles Creed that are not Biblical. For instance I do not say, "I believe in the resurrection of the body." I do speak my preterist views in certain situations to church members. There was a time when I was like you and had to speak always. But a good wife taught me how to prioritize. Your apparent separatist stance is exactly what the unbelieving world wants to see.  Roo |
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Post by didymus on Dec 30, 2010 18:58:50 GMT -5
Roo, Think of this: Also: What do these say to you? I often think about going back to church. But, what is the church? Is it a denomination? Is it a denomination-like independent church? When Jesus said, "I will build my church," what did he mean? Which church was it? Jesus also said this, "Whosoever is not against us is FOR us." Most Futurists preach the true gospel which is salvation by grace alone. And it is my guess that you came to know Christ through such a one. Roo Don't you believe that a part of the dispensing of grace is the fulfillment of prophecy?  |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 30, 2010 19:25:12 GMT -5
Didy,
Did you come to know Christ through a futurist?
Roo
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Post by didymus on Dec 30, 2010 19:37:43 GMT -5
Didy, Did you come to know Christ through a futurist? Roo Nope. |
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Post by kangaroojack on Dec 30, 2010 19:56:47 GMT -5
Didy, Did you come to know Christ through a futurist? Roo Nope. Have futurists led people to Christ? Roo |
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Post by didymus on Dec 31, 2010 14:23:51 GMT -5
Nope. Have futurists led people to Christ? Roo I have no idea if they led people to Christ, or just an idea of a Christ. Jesus is the truth. A gospel of Christ full of lies can not save anyone. |
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Post by Morris on Jan 5, 2011 15:38:48 GMT -5
Roo! Amen. You have written some beautiful words in this thread.
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Post by mellontes on Jan 6, 2011 0:04:54 GMT -5
Anyone who loves Jesus as His Lord and Savior and loves His people is a child of God. But I don't sing hymns that are futurist. I do not cite the parts of the Apostles Creed that are not Biblical. For instance I do not say, "I believe in the resurrection of the body." I do speak my preterist views in certain situations to church members. There was a time when I was like you and had to speak always. But a good wife taught me how to prioritize. Your apparent separatist stance is exactly what the unbelieving world wants to see. Roo Me, I would have no problem in saying, "I believe in the resurrection of the body" because I have been resurrected from that body (the natural body) that the Bible speaks of. You are probably right about your views regarding my separatist stance. However, I fail to see why you would bring in the unbelieving world into that argument. We were talking about the physical assembly. Are you thinking that the unbelieving world is part of that assembly. In that case, you might have a point. If going to church is something which the unbelieving world demands from us as Christians then I completely missed the boat. I always thought they needed to be saved first. I know that your last comment was meant as a personal dig, as you so often end your thoughts, "but God meant it unto good." |
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Post by kangaroojack on Jan 6, 2011 12:25:20 GMT -5
Ted said:
Ted,
It is wrong to equivocate. The expression "I believe in the resurrection of the body means that the flesh will be resurrected from the grave. If this is not what you mean then it is wrong to cite it. Equivocation is dishonest.
Roo
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