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Post by Once4all on Apr 10, 2010 20:32:07 GMT -5
Eight months ago, after 8 years at the same church, we stopped going. Over recent years, our beliefs had changed to the point that I was uncomfortable with the teaching. I was inwardly criticizing and disagreeing, though never contentious outwardly.
Tomorrow we are going back to the same church. Mainly we miss the regular fellowship with other Christians. For most of the time we were there before, we were heavily involved with church operations (audio/visual operations and bulletin publication). That involvement added to my discomfort because I started feeling that I was taking an active part in promoting things I didn't believe.
When we go back, it will be to sit in the pews (chairs, actually) among everyone, and not get re-involved like we were before. We'll see how it goes.
Bev
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Post by mellontes on Apr 10, 2010 20:43:10 GMT -5
Eight months ago, after 8 years at the same church, we stopped going. Over recent years, our beliefs had changed to the point that I was uncomfortable with the teaching. I was inwardly criticizing and disagreeing, though never contentious outwardly. Tomorrow we are going back to the same church. Mainly we miss the regular fellowship with other Christians. For most of the time we were there before, we were heavily involved with church operations (audio/visual operations and bulletin publication). That involvement added to my discomfort because I started feeling that I was taking an active part in promoting things I didn't believe. When we go back, it will be to sit in the pews (chairs, actually) among everyone, and not get re-involved like we were before. We'll see how it goes. Bev Bev, I would be very interested in knowing how that will turn out. Does the congregation fully realize that you believe the Lord has already come? I ask because the situation my wife and I are in is somwhat similar. We haven't been to church in over two years - well aside from the odd preterist church here and there in the wonderful US of A...Everything up here is either dispensational or Catholic. My preterists beliefs are well-known to several churches in the area. That's what you get for writing a book on preterism and sending it out to everyone you know...  We have desired to attend somewhere, but I do not want to create strife either...I would have a very hard time singing futurist hymns (we simply refuse to sing them). I would have even a harder time listening to the out-of-context preaching. I would like to support evangelical Christianity, but not through a dispensational futurist church. I would much rather support the Palestinian Bible Society... LOTS of people who know us do not even bother to let us know we exist. The fellowship would be cold and shallow in these churches. I think I would eventually get kicked out anyway because someone is sure to pick up the rumour and eventually ask, "So, ..." |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 11, 2010 21:24:56 GMT -5
Well, it didn't go like I had expected. When we left there last August, the preacher's son and his son's friend took over running the audio/visual duties. So the day we choose to go back, they aren't there!
"We're glad you're here, we don't have anyone to run the sound room today!" We couldn't very well say no. So in an instant, it felt like we never left.
My internal thoughts had not mellowed, as I had maybe hoped. During Sunday school a thing or two was mentioned that I didn't agree with, so my mind just shut off for awhile. Instead of listening, I read the bulletin and the prayer list.
During the service they sang a song that I disagree with, so I simply did not sing it. Before, I got to where I would substitute words that I could agree with in the parts that I didn't, or I'd sing some parts and not others. This time I just listened and changed the slides.
Everyone was most welcoming. Ted, the difference between our situations is that the congregation does not know how my beliefs are different. The only ones who know are the preacher and one of the elders and their wives. And it was they (preacher and elder) who asked us to run the sound room today.
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Post by Morris on Apr 12, 2010 11:17:07 GMT -5
Nice to hear things went well, Bev!
And to let everyone know, there are churches out there that can facilitate the fellowship of the Body of Christ regardless of eschatological views. I attend such a church. The pastor is a historicist but isn't concerned with such beliefs on a salvation or fellowship level.
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Post by mellontes on Apr 12, 2010 12:44:47 GMT -5
Nice to hear things went well, Bev! And to let everyone know, there are churches out there that can facilitate the fellowship of the Body of Christ regardless of eschatological views. I attend such a church. The pastor is a historicist but isn't concerned with such beliefs on a salvation or fellowship level. Morris, you said something very interesting. You said, in essence, your pastor wouldn't disassociate full-preterists from fellowship. If your statement (which I changed a bit) does indeed say he would welcome full-preterists into "his" fold, how do you know this for sure? You have admitted that you are not necessarily a full-preterist...and therefore quite likely your pastor does not believe you are one either. Are there other full-preterists fellowshipping there? Besides (as I am fairly sure you know), full-preterism is not just about eschatology... And as for Bev's first day back, I am not so sure it went "well." I have some additional questions for her... |
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Post by mellontes on Apr 12, 2010 13:10:49 GMT -5
Well, it didn't go like I had expected. When we left there last August, the preacher's son and his son's friend took over running the audio/visual duties. So the day we choose to go back, they aren't there! "We're glad you're here, we don't have anyone to run the sound room today!" We couldn't very well say no. So in an instant, it felt like we never left. My internal thoughts had not mellowed, as I had maybe hoped. During Sunday school a thing or two was mentioned that I didn't agree with, so my mind just shut off for awhile. Instead of listening, I read the bulletin and the prayer list. During the service they sang a song that I disagree with, so I simply did not sing it. Before, I got to where I would substitute words that I could agree with in the parts that I didn't, or I'd sing some parts and not others. This time I just listened and changed the slides. Everyone was most welcoming. Ted, the difference between our situations is that the congregation does not know how my beliefs are different. The only ones who know are the preacher and one of the elders and their wives. And it was they (preacher and elder) who asked us to run the sound room today. Being the cynic that I am when futurists, with their lips, say "Welcome," I am not necessarily going to take that as a " Welcome, we are so glad you are here to fellowship with us. We want to be friends with you and invite you over and we would love to come over to your place too. Let's study the Bible together!" I, too, would substitute different words in hymns to make them truthful. For instance, " Coming again" would be sung " Already came." After a while, I could no longer in good conscience substitute words, for I knew in my own heart that I was just trying to be vocal AGAINST the congregation and the pastor (who was a closet preterist). It was becoming my way of lashing back publicly and was wrong because my motives were impure. I also did it to honor my Lord in Spirit and in Truth. However, both were clearly present... Now, I know there is likely no way to prove this, but is it possible you were relegated to the audio/visual position because they preferred you away from the congregation? Surely, they had arranged other replacements in the absence of those who were officially doing those duties??? If you didn't show up, would there have been no one to run the presentation? If you were told to preach to others something which you knew was wrong, would you do it? Would you sing to others if you knew the words were wrong? Would you preach (change) the slides if you knew the slides were wrong? Anyway, that is how I think. As much as I desire fellowship, I just don't think I could support a futurist church (in our area either dispensational or Catholic) financially, prayerfully (in accordance with the church body's goals), or by my attendance every Sunday (giving the impression of my support). And if I couldn't give my support in those areas, it would surely be noticed by many and would cause questions in which the answers would eventually be come known. I have heard MANY futurists SAY eschatology (their understanding of it) doesn't matter in regards to fellowship, but I have had NONE that actually LIVED it. Please keep me up to date on this. Although wishing to make these personal questions by private message, I have decided to make my opinions public in this matter because I am almost 100% sure that many others have these same feelings. At "church,"I want to discuss Scripture and I would want to talk about the message just preached. I feel as if there is no one in the futurist dispensational church that is either willing or capable of doing just that. How could I possibly find fellowship with another when we are diametrically opposed to what was just preached? What communion can I have with darkness? And if I went about shining light into this darkness (which I cannot help but speak), what would happen? I would be avoided contrary to the doctrine which they had learned...and that is not fellowship. I sincerely hope I am wrong about all this...Morris, tell your pastor that you believe the Lord has already come and the resurrection has already taken place. Then ask if you can teach the adult Sunday school. I say this partly in jest... Bev, ask your pastor if it would be alright to start off slowly by just becoming part of the congregation again. Ask if it would be alright to not perform the audio/visual duties. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 12, 2010 14:42:52 GMT -5
Morris, tell your pastor that you believe the Lord has already come and the resurrection has already taken place. Then ask if you can teach the adult Sunday school. I say this partly in jest... This is what I believe would happen if a full-preterist made our church his home church; the pastor would welcome him, warmly. I doubt he would allow teaching during a church gathering, but he certainly wouldn't "forbid" small group style studies on it, and I believe him saying 'I don't believe it myself' would be the extent of the dissuading. I say this based on how he (and the church elders in general) deal with dispensationalism. We have had guests speak in our church that believe in the rapture and mention it in their messages (not teaching it, mind you)! They are certainly not 'corrected' there if front of the congregation. They are free to hold to their own views. As I said, the church is 'officially' historist, but it was at one time dispensational, and these beliefs are not considered in fellowship. I am seriously thinking about asking the pastor himself to see what he says. |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 12, 2010 14:57:53 GMT -5
Well, it didn't go like I had expected. When we left there last August, the preacher's son and his son's friend took over running the audio/visual duties. So the day we choose to go back, they aren't there! "We're glad you're here, we don't have anyone to run the sound room today!" We couldn't very well say no. So in an instant, it felt like we never left. My internal thoughts had not mellowed, as I had maybe hoped. During Sunday school a thing or two was mentioned that I didn't agree with, so my mind just shut off for awhile. Instead of listening, I read the bulletin and the prayer list. During the service they sang a song that I disagree with, so I simply did not sing it. Before, I got to where I would substitute words that I could agree with in the parts that I didn't, or I'd sing some parts and not others. This time I just listened and changed the slides. Everyone was most welcoming. Ted, the difference between our situations is that the congregation does not know how my beliefs are different. The only ones who know are the preacher and one of the elders and their wives. And it was they (preacher and elder) who asked us to run the sound room today. Being the cynic that I am when futurists, with their lips, say "Welcome," I am not necessarily going to take that as a " Welcome, we are so glad you are here to fellowship with us. We want to be friends with you and invite you over and we would love to come over to your place too. Let's study the Bible together!" I'm certain that the welcome we received was genuine. As for fellowship and friends, one thing my prolonged absence has taught me is that fellowship is NOT synonymous with friendship. My absence showed me who my true friends were: the only ones who continued to associate with me willingly after I had left. It was the same two people who I considered my closest friends even while attending, so that was no surprise. Those whom you are in fellowship with are "friendly" but not necessarily "friends" in the sense of people you share experiences with outside of organized church settings. It might be easier to think along the lines of friends, church friends, and close friends. My two friends would be close friends. The pastor's and elders' families I consider church friends (our ministry work at the church obviously brought us in closer contact with them), and just about everyone else in the congregation to be simply friends (or, more loosely, "people I know from church"). Our "church friends" would have us over for meals occasionally and even more private family gatherings, such as kids' graduations. This was when we were there before. I don't know if this level of fellowship will just pick up where it left off, or how that will work. We'll just have to wait and see. As for private-type Bible studies, as in just friends getting together to study the Bible and being open to hearing different viewpoints, I've only had one friend like that. But he left to go to Bible college a few years ago and is moving to another state after graduation this year, so that relationship is not likely to be re-established. In a formal church setting (Sunday school, Wed night Bible studies), I don't think it's right to try to force conversation of a view that you know goes against what the regular position of the church is. That's not to say that you should hide what you believe, just not be argumentative about it. I, too, would substitute different words in hymns to make them truthful. For instance, " Coming again" would be sung " Already came." After a while, I could no longer in good conscience substitute words, for I knew in my own heart that I was just trying to be vocal AGAINST the congregation and the pastor (who was a closet preterist). It was becoming my way of lashing back publicly and was wrong because my motives were impure. I also did it to honor my Lord in Spirit and in Truth. However, both were clearly present... Being in the sound room (although it is open to the larger area where the congregation sits), I wasn't too concerned with people hearing me or my alternate lyrics. However, along the same lines of having a way of lashing back, I would sometimes in Sunday school or Wed nights, mumble audible words under my breath that were in opposition to what was being said. I knew it was wrong to do so, but sometimes couldn't help myself. So it sounds like we have experienced very similar emotions, Ted. Now, I know there is likely no way to prove this, but is it possible you were relegated to the audio/visual position because they preferred you away from the congregation? Absolutely not. I have no doubt about that. Surely, they had arranged other replacements in the absence of those who were officially doing those duties??? If you didn't show up, would there have been no one to run the presentation? Actually, the only other person who has substituted there occasionally is my close friend Amy. In fact, she WAS asked to do it Sunday, by an elder's wife who was unaware that my husband and I were already asked to do it earlier, before Sunday school started. There's more to that story. In brief, this elder's wife was one I had emailed off and on during my absence and I told her in email once that if we came back to church, we would not want to go right back to working in the sound room. So I'm sure she asked Amy to do it out of respect for that. If you were told to preach to others something which you knew was wrong, would you do it? Definitely NOT. Would you sing to others if you knew the words were wrong? "To" others? Trust me, others would not want me to sing to them! One of the things I liked about being in the sound room was that I didn't have to worry about people sitting next to me (except my husband) hearing me sing. Think of the parodies you've heard on television of people who can't carry a tune.... that's me in real life. LOL. But if I had a beautiful singing voice and was asked to sing a "special" for the congregation, I would not sing a song that I disagreed with theologically. Do I sing such songs to myself, for example, when I hear them on the radio? Yeah, I do. I even sang along to "I'll Fly Away" in church on Sunday. My conscience is much LESS disturbed by futurist talk and songs than it is by trinitarian talk and songs. Would you preach (change) the slides if you knew the slides were wrong? I did and I do. Granted, this bothered me greatly before and was one of the reasons for leaving. I think I have become more, uh, tolerant, over these past 8 months. Tolerant in a way that let's me allow others to have their beliefs. Just because I display a slide (that someone else prepared) that I disagree with does not mean that I'm teaching it or agreeing to it. I don't think this is compromise of my beliefs, but rather compassion towards others. Anyway, that is how I think. As much as I desire fellowship, I just don't think I could support a futurist church (in our area either dispensational or Catholic) financially, prayerfully (in accordance with the church body's goals), or by my attendance every Sunday (giving the impression of my support). That is exactly how I was feeling, too, when I left. But, you know, I think this very forum (Preterist Voice) has helped me come to grips with fellowshipping with brothers and sisters of different beliefs. Look at us here... we don't all agree on everything. But we're making this fellowship work, regardless. If we can do it here, we can do it in church. ... Bev, ask your pastor if it would be alright to start off slowly by just becoming part of the congregation again. Ask if it would be alright to not perform the audio/visual duties. I don't have to ask because I know for sure that it would be. |
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Post by mellontes on Apr 12, 2010 15:43:42 GMT -5
Keep me posted as to whether there is any noted difference in your relationships should the general congregation be aware of your views.
I am quite willing to fellowship with futurists (my learned tolerance), but unfortunately, my experience is that they are not willing to fellowship with preterists...
Last night my wife and I watched a 1940's flick about a "missionary" to china in the late early 1900's. It was Gregory Peck's second movie. He played a Catholic missionary. However, the movie was not done is the style of Catholicism that I am normally exposed to these days. There was still the crossing of one's self and the occasional prayer to St. Andrew, but there were also some Bible quotes...
One scene was where the Catholic priest, who had been in that Chinese community for several years (Peck), went to welcome a Protestant couple who were new to the area. The Protestant asked the priest if he resented their coming to the community. He answered with a very godly no...
At the end of the movie, I asked my wife how we, three years ago, would have welcomed a Catholic priest if one knocked on our door. The answer was the same as mine. We wouldn't have taken very kindly to such an invitation! If a Catholic priest ever walked into our Baptist church, I am sure he would have been looked upon in total disdain.
I have learned to think differently upon these kinds of matters in the last few years. Unfortunately, others have not and is one of the reasons why fellowship with full-preterists is much frowned upon.
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Post by stephenpatrick on Apr 12, 2010 21:25:42 GMT -5
Good evening friends.
Interesting comments here on church attendance, and even going to a church.
Especially the Catholic ones.
I grew up in the Catholic Church. Grade school thru high school.
When I look back as to how I was raised and my schooling I wouldn't
change a thing.
After I left the Catholic Church at 18 I was a thug and partier for many years until I
met my wife to be. While I always believed the biblical accounts were true and
did happen, I just never (at least that I can remember) made a conscious effort to
apply those truths. After we were married, we attended her church, a Baptist church.
And then thru my reading of other materials, along with my Bible I developed a hatred
for the Catholic system. And most of that came from evangelical books. If as they claim
it is all wrong, then it is evil and should be despised.
But now I look back and see how wrong I was. Yes, I'm sure all of us here disagree with many
of the traditions, the hierarchy, the history, etc. of Catholicism. Yet at the core, Jesus Christ crucified and
His resurrection are within it. I knew when I was a child that I was a sinner because the Bible, and the Catholic
Church said so. No ifs and buts about it.
The system plays on the need for bishops, priests, confession, and many other Catholic
doctrines which I find wrong. But the Holy Spirit, has been at this for a long time and I believe uses the truths
that are taught and brings many to repentance and saving faith. Most don't read the Bible. Okay . . . well, when
I think of CARM and the many other dispy forums, books, web sites, and the theological battles that take
place in this country (all from Bible reading folks) and it is almost as if they are enemies. And they are supposed
to be Christians! My Mom and Dad never, ever criticized the faith of the Lutherans living next door to us, or the Baptists.
Last summer one of my best friends in high school died (only 53 years old) and his funeral service was at my old Catholic Church. I probably knew at least 100 or more people that were there. During the service the priest's message was as good as any I've heard at my former evangelical church, and recently at my current one. This was a rough crowd that I knew from school and the guys in front of me that knew Tony (my friend) weren't his best friends, but they were extremely moved by the service. I told my wife after that I felt (however wrong it may have been) a closeness to these people during the funeral than I've been with 95% of all the Bible reading believers I know. I know the Lord was working in these guy's lives right then and there. I felt it. It gave me opportunity to talk a bit with a few of them and see what they are thinking. I've also been seeing 2 of my other best friends again on a regular basis. (there were 6 of us back then, now 1 dead, 2 others who just don't give a rip about anybody but themselves)
Most of the things said here about attending church I agree with. Yesterday we sang "How great thou art" and I
just didn't sing the last part about Jesus coming back. Almost all the songs and preaching, and prayers tell of His return. And I wince, swallow, sweat, cry inside, I don't like it at all. I just know a building project is in the works and it might make me leave. We don't need it and coming from those who believe that the signs are here and He's coming back soooooon just don't make any sense to me. Believe one thing and do just the opposite.
Sorry for the rant.
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Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 13, 2010 16:33:22 GMT -5
Everybody says the reason they go to church is in search of fellowship with like minded believers - but how realistic is that expectation? Certainly you don't go to the grocery store with that mindset, yet I'll bet we are all kind to the cashier and others we may happen to speak to. And then there is the workplace and our neighbors, doctors, etc.
When Paul went to various cities, he went first to the synagogues and there was where he delivered the gospel to Jews and Greeks alike. Yet the Greeks weren't there because they followed Judaism per se. And he did the same in the market place - which I would have loved to have seen how he even initiated that.
My point here is that people attend church for various reasons - most of them merely religious, but also for community reasons. If you can find a church that actually reads from the text (like they did in the synagogues) - that would be great. But even then wouldn't you expect to find a mix of believers and non-believers even so? Should we shun our JW neighbors when they say hello and think they have some good news to tell us? I don't, I listen and then tell them about the better news I have to share!
Truth is that Christians today are a mixed bag of nuts, most of whom are growing (or not) at different rates in their understanding and discernment of the word of God. I certainly didn't know a thing about 'eschatology' being taught in the church I first attended. In fact most of what the preacher taught I didn't know anything about. But I knew Jesus and the people who crossed my path while there, were getting to know Him too. What was surprising to me was how hypocritical most of us were while we were 'in church'. Which is the nature of 'going to church' I suppose instead of being that church. And I found people struggled with that just like I did. How to live out the faith in what you believe? Which may just be more of a challenge on Sunday!
I would say, it starts with actually being kind to one another whether you agree with them or not. And I think you will always find there are many who are hoping to find that in any church.
And I suppose one day when I do go back, it will be for that purpose.
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Post by Once4all on Apr 13, 2010 19:36:57 GMT -5
Good thoughts, Robin.
No one will ever find a church that is a perfect match, doctrine-for-doctrine. Those of us who desire the fellowship that comes from meeting regularly with a congregation need to recognize (within ourselves) that our purpose for desiring to meet together is primarily for fellowship, and stop wishing and waiting for that perfect church where everyone believes exactly as we do.
We can still do all the same studying on our own that we did when we were without a local group to meet with. Those of us with whatever mix of unorthodox beliefs we have will probably not find the "right" group to meet with unless we start it ourselves. And that may be a membership of one for a long time.
That's not to say that we should just go anywhere. There's enough variety out there that we can at least find a church with some things in common with our own beliefs. But if fellowship is our primary purpose, we need to not make an issue of our differences.
Denominations just keep multiplying. This is a trend of disunity, not the unity that Scripture calls for.
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Post by mellontes on Apr 13, 2010 20:46:23 GMT -5
Everybody says the reason they go to church is in search of fellowship with like minded believers - but how realistic is that expectation? Certainly you don't go to the grocery store with that mindset, yet I'll bet we are all kind to the cashier and others we may happen to speak to. And then there is the workplace and our neighbors, doctors, etc. When Paul went to various cities, he went first to the synagogues and there was where he delivered the gospel to Jews and Greeks alike. Yet the Greeks weren't there because they followed Judaism per se. And he did the same in the market place - which I would have loved to have seen how he even initiated that. My point here is that people attend church for various reasons - most of them merely religious, but also for community reasons. If you can find a church that actually reads from the text (like they did in the synagogues) - that would be great. But even then wouldn't you expect to find a mix of believers and non-believers even so? Should we shun our JW neighbors when they say hello and think they have some good news to tell us? I don't, I listen and then tell them about the better news I have to share! Truth is that Christians today are a mixed bag of nuts, most of whom are growing (or not) at different rates in their understanding and discernment of the word of God. I certainly didn't know a thing about 'eschatology' being taught in the church I first attended. In fact most of what the preacher taught I didn't know anything about. But I knew Jesus and the people who crossed my path while there, were getting to know Him too. What was surprising to me was how hypocritical most of us were while we were 'in church'. Which is the nature of 'going to church' I suppose instead of being that church. And I found people struggled with that just like I did. How to live out the faith in what you believe? Which may just be more of a challenge on Sunday! I would say, it starts with actually being kind to one another whether you agree with them or not. And I think you will always find there are many who are hoping to find that in any church. And I suppose one day when I do go back, it will be for that purpose. Robin, Your post made me laugh! While I was reading I was sort of touched in the heart and you made a lot of good points. As I drew near to the end of your post I was expecting a closing sentence something similar to this: " Well, anyway, that is how I have been handling the services for the last few years..." But instead, I got: " And I suppose one day when I do go back, it will be for that purpose." I found that rather humorous... |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 13, 2010 22:04:57 GMT -5
Ted - I am glad it caught you by surprise, my humor often gets missed.
I left my last church 10 years ago when I realized I was alone in a crowd - and that after being there 2-3 days a week for 9 years, even with making a few friends and being involved in various church endeavors and with many blessings. It got so the more I studied the more I couldn't 'believe' what the pastor was saying. And in CC's that is like signing a death warrant.
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Post by Once4all on Apr 13, 2010 23:41:47 GMT -5
CC's ?? Calvary Chapels? Calvinist Churches? Churches of Christ? Closed Captioning? Chocolate Cake? Chocolate Cake!  |
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Post by stephenpatrick on Apr 14, 2010 6:20:44 GMT -5
It got so the more I studied the more I couldn't 'believe' what the pastor was saying. Man, isn't that the truth. I hope nobody here in my previous comments thought that I was giving a ringing endorsement to the Catholic Church. I wasn't. I guess I was just trying to point out that there are probably as many bad traditions in the Baptist, Evangelical, Calvinist, etc. churches as there are in the Catholic church. Thats all. They all obscure the truth to some degree yet God is still able to reach out and save some. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 14, 2010 9:34:51 GMT -5
Great post, Robin!
One other point about attending a church is that it isn't all about us and what we get from it. A big motivation should (but unfortunately isn't in most cases) be to find opportunities to bless and encourage one another.
Find out who needs encouragement, or help sometime during the week, etc. If we all did this we'd all have our needs met. This is fellowship, when we serve one another.
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Post by mellontes on Apr 14, 2010 10:02:29 GMT -5
How can we, as preterists, help someone, or even get to know someone if they will not let us into their homes because they believe they are following the command of God:
Romans 16:17 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
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Post by Morris on Apr 14, 2010 12:27:24 GMT -5
How can we, as preterists, help someone, or even get to know someone if they will not let us into their homes because they believe they are following the command of God: Romans 16:17 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.They have their own conscience to contend with. We just have to make sure that we aren't the ones which disallow fellowship. It's the same regardless of what the difference is. Usually, people will distance themselves if they feel a person has an ulterior motive beside simply wanting to serve them (and even if you are desiring only to serve them out of love, that alone can cause people to believe there must be another motive). If the fellowship is based on serving in love, people will realize that IN TIME (I've seen it take a decade in certain cases!). If the basis is to spread a doctrine, people will see that rather quickly. We must remember that correction in doctrine is not the higher cause. I know that's a shocker for most but it's true. Here's some passages to illustrate a point. Let's look at 1 Cor 8:4-13, " So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one... and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall." And then later in 1 Cor 10:25-33, " Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it. If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake — the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God — even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved." What I am trying to say here? Simply that even though Paul knew a TRUTH, he found it more important to submit to another person's conscience then exercise this truth. If his truth caused another to stumble, he would set aside the exercising of that truth for the good of another. The principle at work here is " Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves." Rom 12:10 Note, however, that this does not negate that truth, nor does it change his belief in it. Paul could have taught them "now that you know the truth of the matter, stand fast in this truth and have others hold to it as well". But he didn't. I know people will say that these two things are not related at all, and that the one truth is more important than the one in my example. To that I say, can truth outweigh truth? |
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Post by mellontes on Apr 14, 2010 13:11:03 GMT -5
How can we, as preterists, help someone, or even get to know someone if they will not let us into their homes because they believe they are following the command of God: Romans 16:17 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.They have their own conscience to contend with. We just have to make sure that we aren't the ones which disallow fellowship. It's the same regardless of what the difference is. Usually, people will distance themselves if they feel a person has an ulterior motive beside simply wanting to serve them (and even if you are desiring only to serve them out of love, that alone can cause people to believe there must be another motive). If the fellowship is based on serving in love, people will realize that IN TIME (I've seen it take a decade in certain cases!). If the basis is to spread a doctrine, people will see that rather quickly. We must remember that correction in doctrine is not the higher cause. I know that's a shocker for most but it's true. Here's some passages to illustrate a point. Let's look at 1 Cor 8:4-13, " So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one... and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall." And then later in 1 Cor 10:25-33, " Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it. If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake — the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God — even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved." What I am trying to say here? Simply that even though Paul knew a TRUTH, he found it more important to submit to another person's conscience then exercise this truth. If his truth caused another to stumble, he would set aside the exercising of that truth for the good of another. The principle at work here is " Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves." Rom 12:10 Note, however, that this does not negate that truth, nor does it change his belief in it. Paul could have taught them "now that you know the truth of the matter, stand fast in this truth and have others hold to it as well". But he didn't. I know people will say that these two things are not related at all, and that the one truth is more important than the one in my example. To that I say, can truth outweigh truth? I guess you haven't lived until you meet some of your old acquaintances in a shopping mall, grocery store, park, or wherever, and they walk right by as if you didn't exist. I'm hoping the Lord takes me home today... |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 14, 2010 16:49:50 GMT -5
How can we, as preterists, help someone, or even get to know someone if they will not let us into their homes because they believe they are following the command of God: Romans 16:17 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. I think the key there is to avoid behavior that "causes divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine" they have been taught. If your purpose for being among them is to fellowship, then do that. But if your purpose is to push your own beliefs on them, then you will be viewed as a wolf in sheep's clothing and your prelude to fellowship as only a cover to get in among them. On the other side of the coin, I know that rejection hurts deeply. Being shunned in public, as you described in a later post, is a brutish and unloving practice. This church that you describe may have its own problem with not knowing how to love others. It sounds sectarian and legalistic. |
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Post by mellontes on Apr 14, 2010 21:50:08 GMT -5
How can we, as preterists, help someone, or even get to know someone if they will not let us into their homes because they believe they are following the command of God: Romans 16:17 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. I think the key there is to avoid behavior that "causes divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine" they have been taught. If your purpose for being among them is to fellowship, then do that. But if your purpose is to push your own beliefs on them, then you will be viewed as a wolf in sheep's clothing and your prelude to fellowship as only a cover to get in among them. On the other side of the coin, I know that rejection hurts deeply. Being shunned in public, as you described in a later post, is a brutish and unloving practice. This church that you describe may have its own problem with not knowing how to love others. It sounds sectarian and legalistic. Once, What does behavior have to do with doctrine in the verse I quoted? It is a simple fact that they will not associate BECAUSE of the doctrine held by me. We are considered heretics and, in many cases, classified as a cult. To them, it wouldn't matter if I was the most loving, kind, and giving person in the world. I had the wrong doctrine and was to be avoided, plain and simple. I'm sure that the true context of that verse may have included "nice" people, but Paul says to avoid them BECAUSE of doctrine. I don't know whether or not you go regularly to assemble on Sunday (or Saturday) or whether or not the congregation knows of your "cultic" views. If they do not know of your views, it is really difficult to give advice as one from an "unknowing" congregation... And do you consider the preterism just something you conjured up as a personal view or do you know it to be truth opposed to the error of futurism? Do you see any advantages to futurism? What if your children were futurists, would you try to reach them with the truth or would you just change your behavior and forget doctrine. Nothing personal... |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 14, 2010 23:26:18 GMT -5
I think the key there is to avoid behavior that "causes divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine" they have been taught. If your purpose for being among them is to fellowship, then do that. But if your purpose is to push your own beliefs on them, then you will be viewed as a wolf in sheep's clothing and your prelude to fellowship as only a cover to get in among them. On the other side of the coin, I know that rejection hurts deeply. Being shunned in public, as you described in a later post, is a brutish and unloving practice. This church that you describe may have its own problem with not knowing how to love others. It sounds sectarian and legalistic. Once, What does behavior have to do with doctrine in the verse I quoted? Romans 16:17 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. Behavior/actions are usually instrumental in causing something to occur. It is a simple fact that they will not associate BECAUSE of the doctrine held by me. We are considered heretics and, in many cases, classified as a cult. To them, it wouldn't matter if I was the most loving, kind, and giving person in the world. I had the wrong doctrine and was to be avoided, plain and simple. I'm sure that the true context of that verse may have included "nice" people, but Paul says to avoid them BECAUSE of doctrine. When I read it, Paul says to avoid them who CAUSE DIVISIONS AND OFFENSES. In any case, if that's the way they choose to be, then maybe it's time to start fresh with a new congregation. I don't know whether or not you go regularly to assemble on Sunday (or Saturday) or whether or not the congregation knows of your "cultic" views. Then you haven't really been following this thread, but that's OK. I don't necessarily read everything posted to a thread, either. If they do not know of your views, it is really difficult to give advice as one from an "unknowing" congregation... Just trying to help. And do you consider the preterism just something you conjured up as a personal view or do you know it to be truth opposed to the error of futurism? Do you see any advantages to futurism? What if your children were futurists, would you try to reach them with the truth or would you just change your behavior and forget doctrine. Nothing personal... I believe preterism to be true based on the study I've done. But I got here FROM somewhere (an historicist belief, which I believed to be true at the time), and for all I know I may move on beyond preterism with continued study. We're all at a different place in our understanding of Scripture. If I choose to place myself amidst a group that is not in the same place I'm at, I do so with the understanding that I'm not there to overthrow the teaching of that group's leadership. If that group is not able to welcome a person because of differing beliefs, then the group has the problem, not the person. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 15, 2010 9:59:51 GMT -5
I guess you haven't lived until you meet some of your old acquaintances in a shopping mall, grocery store, park, or wherever, and they walk right by as if you didn't exist. Then I most certainly have indeed lived! I was a member of Pentecostal church (a hardcore dispensational church!) when I come to the understanding that the futurist theology is unscriptural. It became public knowledge that I did not believe in the rapture, the tribulation, the earthly kingdom or future temple; none of it. My 'membership' was removed. I was removed from the youth-group board. I was no longer permitted to be in the worship band. I no longer was allowed to operate in the audio booth. I still attended. To repeat myself, I still attended! And, I then listened to an extensive series on the rapture and futurist interpretations for the next umpteen dozen sermons (aka damage control). I considered it continued research into a view I disagreed with. I was still able to find true fellowship! Though it certainly wasn't with a majority. Church leadership branded me a heretic! I was still able to find true fellowship! This was a million dollar lesson I wouldn't pay a nickel to go through again. I left the church a few years later due to moving for work. No bridges were burned. So if anyone is thinking that I am posting 'idealized' concepts of christian fellowship amid differing theologies; I've lived it, pain and all. |
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Post by mellontes on Apr 15, 2010 14:48:10 GMT -5
Once, What does behavior have to do with doctrine in the verse I quoted? Romans 16:17 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. Behavior/actions are usually instrumental in causing something to occur. When I read it, Paul says to avoid them who CAUSE DIVISIONS AND OFFENSES. Once4All, It wasn't the behavior of very truthful Christians that Paul was speaking against. Paul was speaking against them because they had gone contrary to doctrine. And because of that, they had caused divisions and offenses. You don't avoid people because they have bad attitudes or don't know how to behave. But the NT is full of examples where people who propagate false doctrine are severely castigated and even removed from fellowship or being accursed as in Galatians. Paul goes on to say in verse 18 that these people had good words and fair speeches: Romans 16:18-19 - For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Sounds like their behavior (outward actions) were quite in line, but the problem was that they were DECEIVING the hearts of the simple. Bad attitudes and such don't deceive anyone. We are talking about wrong doctrine. The context continues and appears to concern satan and evil... Romans 16:19-20 - For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. These people weren't speaking out against error; they were speaking out against truth. In any case, if that's the way they choose to be, then maybe it's time to start fresh with a new congregation. I agree. However, I don't think there is a place where my "views" would be welcome. Once it becomes common knowledge, we are considered threats to their system of truth...I would have to become a closet preterist, and that just won't work because: Acts 4:20 - For I cannot but speak the things which I have seen and heard. (Pronouns altered to protect the innocent) Then you haven't really been following this thread, but that's OK. I don't necessarily read everything posted to a thread, either. Went back and did some re-reading. Should there ever come a time in which everyone in the congregation is fully aware of your views, I should greatly desire to see how they behave (in manner and action) with you. I see that in Morris' situation he was basically removed from all church responsibility. WHY? That can't be good to help propagate a foundation for sweet fellowship. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 15, 2010 21:55:45 GMT -5
CC's ?? Calvary Chapels? Calvinist Churches? Churches of Christ? Closed Captioning? Chocolate Cake? Chocolate Cake! If you can't give them bread, cake is good! |
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Post by Once4all on Apr 19, 2010 1:10:23 GMT -5
Second Sunday back to church. Pastor's son was back, so he and his girlfriend worked in the sound room. Hubby and I sat among the congregation. Felt weird at first, having worked in the sound room for five of the last eight years. But I think we can get used to it.
My husband led the responsive Scripture reading and he also served communion. The regular monthly luncheon was today, following the service. Taco salad, yum. I baked brownies. Overall, it went well.
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Post by Allyn on Apr 19, 2010 6:55:25 GMT -5
Second Sunday back to church. Pastor's son was back, so he and his girlfriend worked in the sound room. Hubby and I sat among the congregation. Felt weird at first, having worked in the sound room for five of the last eight years. But I think we can get used to it. My husband led the responsive Scripture reading and he also served communion. The regular monthly luncheon was today, following the service. Taco salad, yum. I baked brownies. Overall, it went well. Wow Bev, its like not one skip in the beat. That is a good thing if you are looking to fit back in. Looks like they accept you and you are accepting them. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 19, 2010 10:17:05 GMT -5
Glad to hear such positive reports, Bev!
Here's a verse we read last night at our small group meeting that we thought we all needed to apply in our lives so much more; "But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today..." Hebrews 3:13.
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Post by Once4all on Apr 19, 2010 21:36:49 GMT -5
Thanks, Allyn and Sheldon. I shouldn't be surprised at being welcomed so readily, even after so long a time. After all, it was our decision to leave, not theirs. The determining factor for continuing on there will be my own heart, if I can deal with the differences in doctrine. I believe I can. I believe that is part of what my 8-month absence has taught me. But time will tell.
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