Question about Matthew 16.28

[MoGrace2U]

Dan 7:13 - I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

If this isn't the Son of Man entering the heavenly realm, then where else will we find when it was that happened except at the ascension? He can't come in the clouds of glory unless He has first entered into the presence of the Father. And that is what Mat 16 is saying about how the death of Jesus is the means by which He enters/comes/goes into the glory of the Father.

So if parousia is meaning presence, it certainly isn't limited to a visible appearing else we would see everything that angels do - and we don't. And once Jesus did ascend, it certainly did not limit His activities in the earth - only our ability to see them except by signs.

So until Jesus died, rose and ascended to the Father, there was not going to be any cloud coming for judgment or rewards. So how can Mat 16 be speaking about that time when He had not yet told the disciples how He was intending to enter glory in the first place? This is where He begins speaking of His imminent death, so it makes sense to me that in telling the disciples of that, He would also include that it did not mean the end for Him, but was the means of His entering glory. Which was something no man had been able to do at that point in time. But it certainly was what their resurrection hope was all about.

So unless we are expecting a visible coming to deliver rewards to men in the earth, then the only other option is how was this to spiritually accomplished? Simple, by a parousia of Christ that would signify His unseen but very real presence. And since He was going away in order to appear before the Father on our behalf, His first parousia was to Him. Which is what Heb 9 is also saying about a 2nd appearing He would make that would also be before the Father.

The comings and goings of Christ between the realms, only required one visible appearance in the earth as a man - nothing else He did before or after that was ever limited in the same way that appearance was.

[Allyn]

Apr 19, 2010 14:49:56 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

Dan 7:13 - I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

If this isn't the Son of Man entering the heavenly realm, then where else will we find when it was that happened except at the ascension? He can't come in the clouds of glory unless He has first entered into the presence of the Father. And that is what Mat 16 is saying about how the death of Jesus is the means by which He enters/comes/goes into the glory of the Father.

So if parousia is meaning presence, it certainly isn't limited to a visible appearing else we would see everything that angels do - and we don't. And once Jesus did ascend, it certainly did not limit His activities in the earth - only our ability to see them except by signs.

So until Jesus died, rose and ascended to the Father, there was not going to be any cloud coming for judgment or rewards. So how can Mat 16 be speaking about that time when He had not yet told the disciples how He was intending to enter glory in the first place? This is where He begins speaking of His imminent death, so it makes sense to me that in telling the disciples of that, He would also include that it did not mean the end for Him, but was the means of His entering glory. Which was something no man had been able to do at that point in time. But it certainly was what their resurrection hope was all about.

So unless we are expecting a visible coming to deliver rewards to men in the earth, then the only other option is how was this to spiritually accomplished? Simple, by a parousia of Christ that would signify His unseen but very real presence. And since He was going away in order to appear before the Father on our behalf, His first parousia was to Him. Which is what Heb 9 is also saying about a 2nd appearing He would make that would also be before the Father.

The comings and goings of Christ between the realms, only required one visible appearance in the earth as a man - nothing else He did before or after that was ever limited in the same way that appearance was.

Exactly as I see it.

[Sower]

Apr 19, 2010 14:49:56 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

Dan 7:13 - I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

If this isn't the Son of Man entering the heavenly realm, then where else will we find when it was that happened except at the ascension?

I agree the Son of man entered the heavenly realm at the ascension (Acts 1:9,10).

He can't come in the clouds of glory unless He has first entered into the presence of the Father.

Agreed!

And that is what Mat 16 is saying about how the death of Jesus is the means by which He enters/comes/goes into the glory of the Father.

Not so! Matthew 16:27 speaks of Jesus Coming (i.e. in like manner as he went into heaven, Acts 1:11).

So if parousia is meaning presence, it certainly isn't limited to a visible appearing else we would see everything that angels do - and we don't.

Agreed!

And once Jesus did ascend, it certainly did not limit His activities in the earth

True!

- only our ability to see them except by signs.

I must disagree, since Jesus is God and can appear at will as he did to Abraham (Genesis 18:1-8).

So until Jesus died, rose and ascended to the Father, there was not going to be any cloud coming for judgment or rewards.

True!

So how can Mat 16 be speaking about that time when He had not yet told the disciples how He was intending to enter glory in the first place? [/QUOTE}

We cannot presume that since everything Jesus did was not recorded (John 21:25).

This is where He begins speaking of His imminent death, so it makes sense to me that in telling the disciples of that, He would also include that it did not mean the end for Him, but was the means of His entering glory. Which was something no man had been able to do at that point in time. But it certainly was what their resurrection hope was all about.

Okay, but the issue is about Jesus telling his disciples that he was coming with angels to "reward" every man according to their works (Matthew 16:27,28).

The fact Jesus spoke about denying self, following him, and saying what would it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul, make me think Jesus was talking about judgment of individuals, not his resurrection.

So unless we are expecting a visible coming to deliver rewards to men in the earth, then the only other option is how was this to spiritually accomplished? Simple, by a parousia of Christ that would signify His unseen but very real presence. And since He was going away in order to appear before the Father on our behalf, His first parousia was to Him. Which is what Heb 9 is also saying about a 2nd appearing He would make that would also be before the Father.

I can only speak for myself. I believe Jesus parousia occurred before all the apostles died, and was judged and rewarded as he declared Matthew 16:27,28; Hebrews 9;28), and since that time every man at death, in his own order (1 Corinthians 15:23; Revelation 14:13).

The comings and goings of Christ between the realms, only required one visible appearance in the earth as a man - nothing else He did before or after that was ever limited in the same way that appearance was.

I disagree, since Jesus speaks of a coming with angels to judge and reward every man according to his works, Matthew 16:27,28.

Sower~

[Sower]

Apr 19, 2010 15:18:26 GMT -5 Allyn said:

Apr 19, 2010 14:49:56 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

Dan 7:13 - I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

If this isn't the Son of Man entering the heavenly realm, then where else will we find when it was that happened except at the ascension? He can't come in the clouds of glory unless He has first entered into the presence of the Father. And that is what Mat 16 is saying about how the death of Jesus is the means by which He enters/comes/goes into the glory of the Father.

So if parousia is meaning presence, it certainly isn't limited to a visible appearing else we would see everything that angels do - and we don't. And once Jesus did ascend, it certainly did not limit His activities in the earth - only our ability to see them except by signs.

So until Jesus died, rose and ascended to the Father, there was not going to be any cloud coming for judgment or rewards. So how can Mat 16 be speaking about that time when He had not yet told the disciples how He was intending to enter glory in the first place? This is where He begins speaking of His imminent death, so it makes sense to me that in telling the disciples of that, He would also include that it did not mean the end for Him, but was the means of His entering glory. Which was something no man had been able to do at that point in time. But it certainly was what their resurrection hope was all about.

So unless we are expecting a visible coming to deliver rewards to men in the earth then the only other option is how was this to spiritually accomplished?

And?

Simple, by a parousia of Christ that would signify His unseen but very real presence. And since He was going away in order to appear before the Father on our behalf, His first parousia was to Him.

Acts 1:9; Daniel 7:13.

Which is what Heb 9 is also saying about a 2nd appearing He would make that would also be before the Father.[/QUOTE]

I disagree, Hebrew 9 is after the ascension and speaking of the judge (Hebrews 9:24-28).

The comings and goings of Christ between the realms, only required one visible appearance in the earth as a man - nothing else He did before or after that was ever limited in the same way that appearance was.

Exactly as I see it.

Allyn, just to be clear, are you saying the comings and goings of Christ between the realms, only required one visible appearance in the earth as a man - nothing else He did before or after that was ever limited in the same way that appearance was, is what Jesus was saying pertainining to his coming and rewarding every man according to their works, Matthew 16:27,28?

[Morris]

Another thing to consider as well is that 'parousia' as a presence is the same concept as a cloud representing the presence of God in the OT (and even used in the NT.)

[Allyn]

Sower Wrote:

Allyn, just to be clear, are you saying the comings and goings of Christ between the realms, only required one visible appearance in the earth as a man - nothing else He did before or after that was ever limited in the same way that appearance was, is what Jesus was saying pertainining to his coming and rewarding every man according to their works, Matthew 16:27,28?

My position is that Jesus never again returns bodily to earth but is forever reigning in Heaven.[/QUOTE]

That is not the question. Nor have anyone suggested otherwise.

The coming of Jesus at Judgment is just like what Morris said where it resembles the previous OT comings of the Lord in Judgment whether against Israel or her enemies yet no one physically saw that coming except in power and might.

The gatherers of the Old Covenant people are the angels but the Sender is Christ. His kingdom was established and well underway before AD70 at His ascension but the resurrection and His coming was probably in the mid to late AD 60s. Satan was loosed for a short while just before the resurrection, as I see it from Rev. 20.

Allyn, thanks for clarifying dear brother, you agree with Morris that the coming of Jesus is in the unseen world, and with Robin that the coming of Jesus is the ascension, but disagree with Jesus that his coming was to judge and reward every man according to their works before all the apostles saw death (Matthew 16:27,28).

Thanks, blessings and farewell!

Sower~

[didymus]

In Allyn's post

Thanks, blessings and farewell!

Sower~

I didn't see this in any of Sower's posts. Why was this added?

[Allyn]

Apr 19, 2010 19:31:23 GMT -5 Allyn said:

Sower Wrote:

Allyn, just to be clear, are you saying the comings and goings of Christ between the realms, only required one visible appearance in the earth as a man - nothing else He did before or after that was ever limited in the same way that appearance was, is what Jesus was saying pertainining to his coming and rewarding every man according to their works, Matthew 16:27,28?

My position is that Jesus never again returns bodily to earth but is forever reigning in Heaven.

That is not the question. Nor have anyone suggested otherwise.

The coming of Jesus at Judgment is just like what Morris said where it resembles the previous OT comings of the Lord in Judgment whether against Israel or her enemies yet no one physically saw that coming except in power and might.

The gatherers of the Old Covenant people are the angels but the Sender is Christ. His kingdom was established and well underway before AD70 at His ascension but the resurrection and His coming was probably in the mid to late AD 60s. Satan was loosed for a short while just before the resurrection, as I see it from Rev. 20.

Allyn, thanks for clarifying dear brother, you agree with Morris that the coming of Jesus is in the unseen world, and with Robin that the coming of Jesus is the ascension, but disagree with Jesus that his coming was to judge and reward every man according to their works before all the apostles saw death (Matthew 16:27,28).

Thanks, blessings and farewell!

Sower~[/quote]

The coming of Jesus is in judgment His ascension is His going to the Father. How is this getting mixed up? I have never said anything different from that.

We are certainly going through some rough times here on this board but it should not be happening if people would simply pay attention to what is being said.

[Allyn]

Apr 19, 2010 20:42:17 GMT -5 @didymus said:

In Allyn's post

Thanks, blessings and farewell!

Sower~

I didn't see this in any of Sower's posts. Why was this added?

I don't know what you mean by something being added. Sower has resigned her moderator position and has asked for her membership to be removed. She made this decision on her own and no one has added or taken away from her post.

[didymus]

Sower, I am going to miss you. I think you are truly a truth seeker, and I appreciate that. Without you, I think I'll be alone in here.

So sad to see you go -

Didymus

[MoGrace2U]

I certainly try to pay attention! Especially when the Lord speaks:

Eph 4:8 - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Which is a quote from Ps 68:18

[Allyn]

Apr 20, 2010 21:31:35 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

I certainly try to pay attention! Especially when the Lord speaks:

Eph 4:8 - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Which is a quote from Ps 68:18

I admit i am not completely there yet but until we understand the fulfilling nature of the ascension alone we can not understand the nature of the parousia. From the point of the ascension onward Jesus' work has been going on in/from heaven.

[Morris]

Apr 20, 2010 21:31:35 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

I certainly try to pay attention! Especially when the Lord speaks:

Eph 4:8 - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Which is a quote from Ps 68:18

Hmm...

John 16:7, "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

Acts 1:4, "On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.""

Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.""

Acts 8:20, "Peter answered: May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!""

Romans 4:4, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation."

# Romans 5:15-17, "But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

1 Corinthians 1:7, "Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed."

1 Corinthians 12:4, "There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit."

1 Corinthians 14:12, "So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church."

1 Peter 4:10, "Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms."

2 Corinthians 9:9, "As it is written: He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor; his righteousness endures forever.""

James 1:17, "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

Ephesians 2:8,9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

Ephesians 4:7-13, "But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men." (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."

2 Corinthians 9:15, "Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!"

Amen! (I love reading scripture!)

[Once4all]

Grace and spirit seem very closely connected.

[Morris]

Apr 21, 2010 13:50:09 GMT -5 Once4all said:

Grace and spirit seem very closely connected.

As is the righteousness of God, eternal life, the water of life, and Jesus himself.

John 4:10, "Jesus answered her, If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.""

[MoGrace2U]

Christ in us, the hope of glory, is by far the greatest gift of all!

[Morris]

Apr 23, 2010 22:45:42 GMT -5 MoGrace2U said:

Christ in us, the hope of glory, is by far the greatest gift of all!

Indeed! This gift comes as a bundle package including:

God's Son,
God's righteousness,
God's grace,
God's spirit,
God's eternal life,
God's love...

Well, when He gives a gift nothing is withheld!

[adhitthana]

Apr 9, 2010 15:57:58 GMT -5 Sower said:

I don't think Matthew 16:28, is the transfiguration because it's connected to verse 27, which speaks of the Lord coming with angels to reward every man according to their works, which occur at the end of the age.

Sower~

I would agree.

14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires."

I belive that in Jewish apocalyptic writing around this time the Lord coming with angels was about coming injudgement at the end of the age.
At the end of the age the Lord came with angels with atrumpet the dead were to be raised amidst a time of great turmoil.
This idea occurs in both non canonical and canonical jewish writings.
Jesus appealed to this very idea or image IMHO.

BTW Hi Sower and Allyn and everyone else. :-)

[Allyn]

May 3, 2010 10:13:25 GMT -5 adhitthana said:

Apr 9, 2010 15:57:58 GMT -5 Sower said:

I don't think Matthew 16:28, is the transfiguration because it's connected to verse 27, which speaks of the Lord coming with angels to reward every man according to their works, which occur at the end of the age.

Sower~

I would agree.

14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires."

I belive that in Jewish apocalyptic writing around this time the Lord coming with angels was about coming injudgement at the end of the age.
At the end of the age the Lord came with angels with atrumpet the dead were to be raised amidst a time of great turmoil.
This idea occurs in both non canonical and canonical jewish writings.
Jesus appealed to this very idea or image IMHO.

BTW Hi Sower and Allyn and everyone else. :-)

Hey brother,
Good to see ya.

[Once4all]

Hi adhitthana. Nice to see you posting again!