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Post by Sower on Apr 15, 2010 20:43:16 GMT -5
Sower wrote:Thanks Sower. It seem we're the only ones in here.  Don't be sad, not any of us agree on every single thing! ;D Sower~ |
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Post by mellontes on Apr 15, 2010 20:45:53 GMT -5
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Post by didymus on Apr 15, 2010 20:50:14 GMT -5
Well folks, If Matt. 16.27&28 are not referring to the parousia of Christ in the lifetime of His apostles in 70AD, then I must re-evaluate my beliefs. As far as I'm concerned preterism falls flat on it's face without this verse showing that. That puts me back to being what was before I learned about fulfilled prophecy. So, do me a favor. Prove to me, without Matt. 16.27&28 and it's parallels that the return of Christ would be in 70AD, in the lifetime of at least some of his apostles. Without that, how can you be sure that preterism is true?  |
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Post by didymus on Apr 15, 2010 20:57:10 GMT -5
Sower wrote:Thanks Sower. It seem we're the only ones in here. Don't be sad, not any of us agree on every single thing! ;D Sower~ That's not why I am sad. I am sad because a doctrine that I have believed for over 20 years maybe wrong. |
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Post by MoGrace2U on Apr 15, 2010 21:36:48 GMT -5
Well folks, If Matt. 16.27&28 are not referring to the parousia of Christ in the lifetime of His apostles in 70AD, then I must re-evaluate my beliefs. As far as I'm concerned preterism falls flat on it's face without this verse showing that. That puts me back to being what was before I learned about fulfilled prophecy. So, do me a favor. Prove to me, without Matt. 16.27&28 and it's parallels that the return of Christ would be in 70AD, in the lifetime of at least some of his apostles. Without that, how can you be sure that preterism is true? But that is the point, it is not speaking of His parousia the words being employed are mello and erchomai. I really don't understand what you are so upset about. I haven't read Russell and I didn't need to in order find a preterist understanding in the first place. I am working on the text on my own and this is what I am seeing. And I am not interested in proof texting either. If this passage is not about the 2nd coming - so what? Does it have any affect on why we believe what we do about fulfilled eschatology? I sure hope not! If the preterist view can be destroyed because it 'loses' this proof text, then we are on pretty shakey ground - and I don't believe that either. Truth can stand any test. Oh and for looking where you might find that the Lord said He would show up in the lifetime of at least one disciple - there is that rumor about Lazarus that had been spread that he would not die... |
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Post by mellontes on Apr 16, 2010 8:35:16 GMT -5
Well folks, If Matt. 16.27&28 are not referring to the parousia of Christ in the lifetime of His apostles in 70AD, then I must re-evaluate my beliefs. As far as I'm concerned preterism falls flat on it's face without this verse showing that. That puts me back to being what was before I learned about fulfilled prophecy. So, do me a favor. Prove to me, without Matt. 16.27&28 and it's parallels that the return of Christ would be in 70AD, in the lifetime of at least some of his apostles. Without that, how can you be sure that preterism is true? |
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Post by Morris on Apr 16, 2010 10:24:45 GMT -5
It also say..."Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 That doesn't wean that we are be the workers that secure our salvation, as if by doing something we be saved. We've already seen that the work is to believe. That word here implies accomplishment and finishing. (This is similar to what was said in 2 Timothy 4:7, " I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."). In other words 'With fear and trembling your salvation will be accomplished'. Clarifying this is the very next verse, Philippians 2:13 says, " for it is God who works [to be active, efficient] in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Those two English "work"s are not the same Greek word. I agree with the context but the Glory of God is the Glory of God. Even the kingdom was said to have been 'present' in Jesus' day, such as in, Matthew 11:12, " From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.", Matthew 12:28, " But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." Luke 17:21, " nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." The kingdom was present because the King was present. The kingdom was given when the King was given, when His Spirit was given. This was done first after the resurrection as seen in John 20:21,22, " Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." I believe this is confirmed in Acts 2:29-31, " Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ". Paul stated what these crowns were in Philippians 4:1, " Therefore, my brothers, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, that is how you should stand firm in the Lord, dear friends!", and again in, 1 Thessalonians 2:19, " For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?" These are the same word as in the passages you mentioned. So far we have seen a reward being " that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge" and a crown being " my brothers". This extends the meaning of " it is better to give than to receive" in my eyes. In my opinion, it would basically mean exactly what I shared in the paragraph above. As a fellow-worker with God, the more I exercise my reward (the Holy Spirit) in preaching the gospel (in all the forms that can take), the more I will exercise it. And my crowns from that will be my newly adopted brothers (and sisters of course). Could that recompense not then be the followers of Christ that you have won for Him? They were in the kingdom, but there is also the increase of the kingdom. The Holy Spirit, the kingdom, the sharing of the message, and adoption of people as God's children; these are all intimately intertwined together, as rewards and crowns. Notice what this message is; the gospel, the gospel of the kingdom, the gospel about Jesus Christ, the gospel of God's grace, the gospel of God, the gospel of his Son, my [Paul's] gospel, our gospel, gospel of Christ, the gospel of the glory of Christ, the gospel of your salvation, the gospel of peace, the gospel of our Lord Jesus, gospel of the blessed God, the eternal gospel, the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. These are all one gospel only, yet look at the many facets it encompasses. The same is holds true regarding the kingdom. Edit: I left out a very important thing; this is merely how I view this subject and what my conscience leads me to believe at present. In other words, this is my opinion of what scripture says. |
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Post by didymus on Apr 16, 2010 11:35:50 GMT -5
Well folks, If Matt. 16.27&28 are not referring to the parousia of Christ in the lifetime of His apostles in 70AD, then I must re-evaluate my beliefs. As far as I'm concerned preterism falls flat on it's face without this verse showing that. That puts me back to being what was before I learned about fulfilled prophecy. So, do me a favor. Prove to me, without Matt. 16.27&28 and it's parallels that the return of Christ would be in 70AD, in the lifetime of at least some of his apostles. Without that, how can you be sure that preterism is true? I think I made myself plain about that, but your memory is probably as bad as mine. I said several times that Matthew 16.27&28 are the verses that convinced me the the "second coming" of Christ would be in the lifetime of of at least some of His apostles. Now that is in question. Now what am I suppose to think? Have been wrong for 22 years? That's possible. I am only human. These two verses are the verses I have hung my belief on. Without those to verses, can you prove that preterism is true? I can't.  |
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Post by didymus on Apr 16, 2010 11:57:54 GMT -5
MoGrace2u wrote:Okay, I checked out the Greek for "coming" in Matthew 16.28, and you are right, it is not parousia. I guess preterism is a lie.
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Post by Morris on Apr 16, 2010 12:43:15 GMT -5
Without those to verses, can you prove that preterism is true? I can't. I say no. But that is because I don't think we can "prove" any interpretive position. Including the one I hold. We can show why we believe a particular position, but we can't prove it. In this case, I believe that Matthew 16:27,28 speaks of the resurrection, kingdom, and Holy Spirit. But that doesn't negate the many other passages that speak of Christ's return in judgment in 70 AD. It is in this general belief that I agree with Preterists, even though I don't consider myself one. The one thing I have against Preterism is the overwhelming effort to make nearly everything connected to 70 AD. In my view, let the things that relate to 70 AD be about 70 AD, and let the things that aren't about 70 AD be about what they relate to. |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 16, 2010 12:53:07 GMT -5
MoGrace2u wrote:Okay, I checked out the Greek for "coming" in Matthew 16.28, and you are right, it is not parousia. I guess preterism is a lie. I'm sure glad that my whole paradigm is not dependent upon only one verse and how I interpret it. But then that's just me. |
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Post by mellontes on Apr 16, 2010 13:15:05 GMT -5
But that is the point, it is not speaking of His parousia the words being employed are mello and erchomai. Robin, I don't see what those two words have to do with anything. "Mello" is used often in the Gospels referring to the judgment (about to) come. That would be the parousia event, would it not? Erchomai is also used to refer to the parousia event. Hebrews 10:37 is just one of many. Revelation is loaded with them. In fact, if you believe the "parousia" is spoken of in the book of Revelation, you must be referring to "erchomai," because there is not one instance of "parousia" (Stongs 3952) in all of Revelation... Apokalupsis is another word used for Christ's coming. |
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Post by didymus on Apr 16, 2010 14:29:17 GMT -5
MoGrace2u wrote:Okay, I checked out the Greek for "coming" in Matthew 16.28, and you are right, it is not parousia. I guess preterism is a lie. I'm sure glad that my whole paradigm is not dependent upon only one verse and how I interpret it. But then that's just me. It's not, but no passages are as plain as these passages to show that the parouisa was to happen in the lifetime of at least some of the apostles. So, I thought. |
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Post by didymus on Apr 16, 2010 14:35:50 GMT -5
But that is the point, it is not speaking of His parousia the words being employed are mello and erchomai. Robin, I don't see what those two words have to do with anything. "Mello" is used often in the Gospels referring to the judgment (about to) come. That would be the parousia event, would it not? Erchomai is also used to refer to the parousia event. Hebrews 10:37 is just one of many. Revelation is loaded with them. In fact, if you believe the "parousia" is spoken of in the book of Revelation, you must be referring to "erchomai," because there is not one instance of "parousia" (Stongs 3952) in all of Revelation... Apokalupsis is another word used for Christ's coming. Are you saying that the Greek words mentioned are used interchangeably? |
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Post by Sower on Apr 16, 2010 14:58:53 GMT -5
It also say..."Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 That doesn't wean that we are be the workers that secure our salvation, as if by doing something we be saved. We've already seen that the work is to believe. Morris, I totally agree! Our salvation was 100 % accomplished and finished, by Jesus the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). Hebrews 12:1-29, also speaks about running the race and the discipline involved. Our salvation was accomplished when we got saved, the fear and trembling pertain to living out the the chritian life. Thus, the resurrection of Christ was the fulfillment of the prophecy to David. 1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown "of" REJOICING? Are not even ye before our Lord Jesus Christ in his presence? I see that as speaking of the crown "of" rejoicing, a REWARD. Therein lies the problem, you called the Holy Spirit your reward, and the Holy Spirit is not a reward. Your reward will be your crowns, given when you stand before the Lord. We are labourers together with the Lord, and rewarded according to how we build upon the foundation of salvation... 1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that "is" laid, which "is" Jesus Christ. 12 NOW if any man BUILD upon "this foundation," Gold, Silver, Precious Stones, Wood, Hay, Stubble: 13 Every man's WORK shall be made manifest: for THE DAY shall "declare" it., because it shall be revealed by fire; and the firse shall TRY every man's WORK of what sort it is. Notice, the types of material (vs. 12), and the WORK will be declared/determined of what sort it was "the day" of Jesus appearing, coming with angels to REWARD every man according to their works (Matthew 16:27,28; Revelarion 22:12). They were in the kingdom, but there is also the increase of the kingdom. The Holy Spirit, the kingdom, the sharing of the message, and adoption of people as God's children; these are all intimately intertwined together, as rewards and crowns. Notice what this message is; the gospel, the gospel of the kingdom, the gospel about Jesus Christ, the gospel of God's grace, the gospel of God, the gospel of his Son, my [Paul's] gospel, our gospel, gospel of Christ, the gospel of the glory of Christ, the gospel of your salvation, the gospel of peace, the gospel of our Lord Jesus, gospel of the blessed God, the eternal gospel, the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. These are all one gospel only, yet look at the many facets it encompasses. The same is holds true regarding the kingdom.[/QUOTE] Morris, since by your own admission those things are entertwined belonging to all God's children. So where's the distinction, of every man and according to their works? I'm not questioning you or trying to convince you otherwise. However, I'm thoroughly puzzled as how anyone could read off the page Jesus saying ..."For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father WITH his angels; and then he shall REWARD every man according to their WORKS" (Matthew 16:27), and say it mean something different. Blessings, Sower~ |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 16, 2010 15:48:21 GMT -5
I'm sure glad that my whole paradigm is not dependent upon only one verse and how I interpret it. But then that's just me. It's not, but no passages are as plain as these passages to show that the parouisa was to happen in the lifetime of at least some of the apostles. So, I thought. Didymus, I just think that exegesis of other more covenantal passages do a better job of determining when the last days was to occur. I may be totally wrong on my present view of Matthew 16 but its not the one that keeps me in the full-preterist camp. It is many, many other passages that do. |
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Post by mellontes on Apr 16, 2010 16:28:33 GMT -5
Are you saying that the Greek words mentioned are used interchangeably? Matthew 24:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? [Strong's 3952 - parousia]Matthew 24:27 - For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Strong's 3952 - parousia]Matthew 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Strong's 2064 - erchomai]Matthew 24:37 - But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Strong's 3952 - parousia]Matthew 24:39 - And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Strong's 3952 - parousia]Matthew 24:48 - But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [Strong's 2064 - erchomai]Matthew 26:64 - Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. [Strong's 2064 - erchomai]I think many would be in agreement that these verses reference what happened in 70 AD. There might be some who would disagree, holding to the view that the parousia event occurs at each individual's death.Regarding Strong's 602 (apokalupsis0 here is one: 1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Here are two verses that use Strong's 3952 (parousia) as not even referring to Christ:1 Corinthians 16:17 - I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied. [Strong's 3952 - parousia]2 Corinthians 7:6 - Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus; [Strong's 3952 - parousia]As we all should know, this is hardly an extensive study on these three Greek words.
So, Tom, do you think these Greek words can be used interchangeably?
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Post by mellontes on Apr 16, 2010 16:32:47 GMT -5
It's not, but no passages are as plain as these passages to show that the parouisa was to happen in the lifetime of at least some of the apostles. So, I thought. Is there even a minute chance that understanding Matthew 16:27-28 as just referring to the twelve disciples has helped you to misunderstand the whole first century generational audience relevance theme? |
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Post by Sower on Apr 16, 2010 17:50:01 GMT -5
Are you saying that the Greek words mentioned are used interchangeably? Matthew 24:3 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? [Strong's 3952 - parousia]Matthew 24:27 - For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Strong's 3952 - parousia]Matthew 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Strong's 2064 - erchomai]Matthew 24:37 - But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Strong's 3952 - parousia]Matthew 24:39 - And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [Strong's 3952 - parousia]Matthew 24:48 - But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [Strong's 2064 - erchomai]Matthew 26:64 - Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. [Strong's 2064 - erchomai]I think many would be in agreement that these verses reference what happened in 70 AD. There might be some who would disagree, holding to the view that the parousia event occurs at each individual's death.Regarding Strong's 602 (apokalupsis0 here is one: 1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Here are two verses that use Strong's 3952 (parousia) as not even referring to Christ:1 Corinthians 16:17 - I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied. [Strong's 3952 - parousia]2 Corinthians 7:6 - Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus; [Strong's 3952 - parousia]As we all should know, this is hardly an extensive study on these three Greek words.
So, Tom, do you think these Greek words can be used interchangeably?
Mellontes, that was very enlightening, especially the verses showing strongs 3952-parousia as not even referring to the Lord. Thanks,  Sower~ |
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Post by mellontes on Apr 17, 2010 0:27:31 GMT -5
Thanks Sower, but anyone with a Strong's concordance and the simplest of Bible software could do the same study in the same 15 minutes...
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Post by didymus on Apr 17, 2010 5:29:07 GMT -5
This probably the last I will post on this subject. I am sorry I asked. At this point, I really don't care when the coming of Christ did or will happen. Which is the position I was in when I first learned of fulfilled prophecy. The most important thing is that I live my life worthy of Christ, which I fail at every day, and I am sorrowful every day for the wretched man that I am. I just hope and pray that God has enough grace and mercy to grant the pardon for my sins that I desperately need. I am sorry if I hurt anyones feelings. God Bless.  |
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Post by mellontes on Apr 17, 2010 10:54:18 GMT -5
This probably the last I will post on this subject. I am sorry I asked. At this point, I really don't care when the coming of Christ did or will happen. Which is the position I was in when I first learned of fulfilled prophecy. The most important thing is that I live my life worthy of Christ, which I fail at every day, and I am sorrowful every day for the wretched man that I am. I just hope and pray that God has enough grace and mercy to grant the pardon for my sins that I desperately need. I am sorry if I hurt anyones feelings. God Bless. Haven't you heard? Preterist heretics don't have feelings! I am saddened that you no longer care whether Christ kept His promise or not. To me, it is now very essential to realize Christ is NOT a liar as all futurists make Him out to be. That makes me very happy. I no longer have to hope that He is what He said He is. I am also saddened that you do not believe God is all-powerful in the matter of cleansing one from sin. And I hope you have already received His pardon... |
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Post by didymus on Apr 17, 2010 21:49:25 GMT -5
I just talked to a man that was there in the beginning with me. He was a preterists longer than I. I shared with him about the discussion in here. His response was that people who claim to be preterists and either think Matthew 16.27&28 to be the transfiguration or the ascension, they either are not true preterists, or they need to learn how to read. Just so you know, Mell, I feel better since I talked to him. - NOT! |
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Post by Sower on Apr 19, 2010 9:02:26 GMT -5
Didymus,
I'm glad you feel better!
I will also point out that except one can prove with scripture that Jesus come with angels to "judge and give rewards" more than ONCE, you can confidently conclude that Matthew 16:27; 24:30,31; 25:31,32; 2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 20:11-15; 22:12, is that ONE coming! ;D
Sower~
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Post by Allyn on Apr 19, 2010 9:21:13 GMT -5
Its interesting to note that the same word in Greek translated to English as come is also used and translated as go.
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Post by Sower on Apr 19, 2010 11:45:53 GMT -5
Its interesting to note that the same word in Greek translated to English as come is also used and translated as go. Interesting indeed! However, since Scripture does not contradict itself, it boils down to whether Scriptures teach that Jesus come, or go to "judge and reward" every man according to their works! Sower~ |
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Post by didymus on Apr 19, 2010 12:00:26 GMT -5
Its interesting to note that the same word in Greek translated to English as come is also used and translated as go. The same is true for, "parousia." If I may ask, what's the point? Like so many words, even in English, definitions of words are predicated upon their usage. For example, "red" is a color, but "Red" could be a person's nickname. "I have a red car that I call "red." Red and I drove to church last night. Or, Red and I went to church last night. Based on common usage, which "Red" is the car, and which "Red" refers to a person? Based on common usage, do we drive human beings? So, the statement with the word, "drove," indicates the car. The other statement indicates I went to church with my friend Red last night. Since the New Testament is based on Koine Greek, it would be wise to consider the common usages of the Greek words, even in comparison to other literature of the time. I do believe some translators did that. They probably also considered the text the word is used. Doing so, all reputable translations I'm aware of use the word "coming" and not "going." in Matthew 16.28. If someone 200 years from now wanted to understand the phrase, "He is gay," wouldn't they have to consider the common usage of the word, "gay," at the time of the usage? Gay, in the 1920s meant to be "happy." But, today it has a whole other different common usage, doesn't it. So to properly translate the New Testament, isn't it wise to consider the common usage of the words at the time they were written. Well, I think I made my point. And I am convinced that the word, "coming," in the verse in question is proper. |
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Post by Allyn on Apr 19, 2010 12:29:35 GMT -5
Its interesting to note that the same word in Greek translated to English as come is also used and translated as go. Interesting indeed! However, since Scripture does not contradict itself, it boils down to whether Scriptures teach that Jesus come, or go to "judge and reward" every man according to their works! Sower~ Doesn't Parousia actually mean presence? Am I wrong in that? Of course I know the Bible does not contradict itself but we do a good job all the time at contradicting the Bible. So then with that in mind I believe that Jesus is making known the operation and sequence of events that will take place in the unseen. |
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Post by Morris on Apr 19, 2010 13:33:14 GMT -5
Doesn't Parousia actually mean presence? Am I wrong in that? That is something I've really been aware of the last year or so. I've found the change in my mindset to be uplifting when I see scripture speaking of His 'presence' rather than only a singular 'return'. |
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Post by Sower on Apr 19, 2010 14:05:44 GMT -5
Interesting indeed! However, since Scripture does not contradict itself, it boils down to whether Scriptures teach that Jesus come, or go to "judge and reward" every man according to their works! Sower~ Doesn't Parousia actually mean presence? Yes, it does! No, you are not! Whoever contradicts the Bible, does so at their own peril (2 Peter 3:16). If by operation and sequence you mean Jesus coming to 'judge and reward" every man according to their works before ALL the apostles died, we agree. I don't disagree it will take place in the unseen, but it will clearly be manifested in the seen realm... Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the Coming of the son of man be. 28 For WHERESOEVER "the carcase" is, there will the eagles be gathered. The Sower~ |
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